Balanced sources of negative LA

[Trekkin]

Are there any? Every time a level adjustment comes up less than zero (Incarnate Construct, in some cases xvarts) everyone feels that it is utterly broken, and so I ask: are there any races or templates, in any published material for the d20 system by anyone, that have a deserved, balanced negative LA?

[PhoenixRivers]

No. The reason being that the concept of getting Free LA is a lot like the concept of flaws. What you'll choose to get will be relevant, and what you choose to lose will not be.

[Zergrusheddie]

Negative LA is inherently cheesy because class levels are almost always better than LA or racial HD. I seem to remember a quote that said something along the lines of "monks suck but they are not worth negative LA."

[Trekkin]

There is a certain measure of irony in the extreme emphasis on strengthening characters proscribing any attempt to weaken them, no?

So what would be horrible enough to be worth negative LA?

[PhoenixRivers]

A penalty to all stats (-4 or so), or an especial vulnerability... That could warrant LA (-1).

[absolmorph]

Negative LA is inherently cheesy because class levels are almost always better than LA or racial HD. I seem to remember a quote that said something along the lines of "monks suck but they are not worth negative LA."

Fixed that for you.
The only possible exception I can think of is monk levels versus Dragon HD, and even then the monk is probably better.
Class levels either have better BAB or awesome class features (coughcasterscough) than racial HD. Occasionally both. Thus, anything that allows more class levels will be powerful.

[Tytalus]

Incarnate Construct is actually mostly fine except for a few special cases (Primordial Giant), as long as the limitations are not ignored (i.e., "minimum 0"). I.e., if you can't get class levels for it.

[Eldan]

To be honest, I can see someone taking a -4 to all stats for another wizard level past level 8 or so.

[taltamir]

To be honest, I can see someone taking a -4 to all stats for another wizard level past level 8 or so.

me too. or a white dragonwraght kobold sorcerer with that other thingie thrown in (+0 LA template that gives you +2 to sorcerer spellcasting)... So an ECL1 character is a level 3 sorc... take -4 to all attributes for that extra +1 level and you are now a level 4 sorcerer whose ECL is 1... and who gains XP as an ECL1 character.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145330

there we go, its a "White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold who underwent Draconic Rite of Passage and is a Metamagic Sorcerer". Whoa that was a mouthful. Metamagic sorcerer replaces your familiar with the ability to apply metamagic without an increase to casting time. The others all give you increasing and stacking sorcerer levels at negative EL...
So you result with a sorcerer level might higher then your effective character level.

As for the question, "what is a balanced negative LA" there actually is an answer... a balanced negative LA is something that a VERY talented DM with lots of balancing and charOp experience tailors to your specific character to ensure that its penalties hurt you and are not made irrelevant or at least negligible by the benefits you get instead.

[PhoenixRivers]

me too. or a white dragonwraght kobold sorcerer with that other thingie thrown in (+0 LA template that gives you +2 to sorcerer spellcasting)... So an ECL1 character is a level 3 sorc... take -4 to all attributes for that extra +1 level and you are now a level 4 sorcerer whose ECL is 1... and who gains XP as an ECL1 character.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145330

there we go, its a "White Dragonspawn Dragonwrought Loredrake Kobold who underwent Draconic Rite of Passage and is a Metamagic Sorcerer". Whoa that was a mouthful. Metamagic sorcerer replaces your familiar with the ability to apply metamagic without an increase to casting time. The others all give you increasing and stacking sorcerer levels at negative EL...
So you result with a sorcerer level might higher then your effective character level.

I'd go on the assumption of "Minimum total LA=0"

I.E. LA -1 does not equal start at level 2.

[taltamir]

I'd go on the assumption of "Minimum total LA=0"

I.E. LA -1 does not equal start at level 2.

oh, you are a level 1 character... you have 1HD only, and no LA... you just happen to cast as a sorcerer several levels higher, which stack with any sorcerer levels you actually take.
It was wrong of me to say negative LA because you don't get actual negative LA and you don't get FULL sorcerer levels... only sorcerer CASTING. (the most important bit of a sorcerer).

Besides which, the assumpmtion that a minimum total LA=0 is contradictory to the very nature of the thread, as it asks "what is balanced source of negative LA"... unless you mean for it to be templates which can be applied to a race?
so you can make a template for "crippling birth defects, -4 to all abilities, -1 LA" and stack it with drow or aasimar to get LA0?

[PhoenixRivers]

oh, you are a level 1 character... you have 1HD only, and no LA... you just happen to cast as a sorcerer several levels higher, which stack with any sorcerer levels you actually take.
It was wrong of me to say negative LA because you don't get actual negative LA and you don't get FULL sorcerer levels... only sorcerer CASTING. (the most important bit of a sorcerer).

Besides which, the assumpmtion that a minimum total LA=0 is contradictory to the very nature of the thread, as it asks "what is balanced source of negative LA"... unless you mean for it to be templates which can be applied to a race?
so you can make a template for "crippling birth defects, -4 to all abilities, -1 LA" and stack it with drow or aasimar to get LA0?

me too. or a white dragonwraght kobold sorcerer with that other thingie thrown in (+0 LA template that gives you +2 to sorcerer spellcasting)... So an ECL1 character is a level 3 sorc... take -4 to all attributes for that extra +1 level and you are now a level 4 sorcerer whose ECL is 1... and who gains XP as an ECL1 character.

The template you're looking for isn't a template. It's Loredrake, which is Eberron specific, and is widely regarded as cheese.

You don't outline how you're getting "Level 4 sorceror" on 1 level of sorceror. The bolded part is where you're unclear, and the point I contended.

And yes, that was intended to be a template, much like the earlier example ("Incarnate" construct)

[taltamir]

The template you're looking for isn't a template. It's Loredrake, which is Eberron specific, and is widely regarded as cheese.

You don't outline how you're getting "Level 4 sorceror" on 1 level of sorceror. The bolded part is where you're unclear, and the point I contended.

And yes, that was intended to be a template, much like the earlier example ("Incarnate" construct)

level 1 sorcerer, casts as a sorcerer 2 levels higher from the templates, +1 level of sorcerer due to -1 LA for -4 to all stats.
mmm, so actually its a level 2 character (2HD) at ECL1 (-1LA) who casts as a 4th level sorcerer.

[Sliver]

I can see the point in TO but are we now coming up with broken house-rules that don't exist so we can discuss how brokenly awesome they are?

Let me present you with these marbles! This bag comes with a dozen marbles that cost 1gp (for the entire pack). Each marble gives you +100 to any one thing (anything) to their owner. You count as an owner as long as the marbles are touching you, so swallowing them is OK. You can't choke on them too!

Let's discuss how awesome those marbles are!

[Foryn Gilnith]

+1 level of sorcerer due to -1 LA

That doesn't work.

Your example is invalid, IMO, because it will never see play. If negative LA creates a monstrosity, then there's a problem; but simply adding it to an existing monstrosity proves nothing, because said monstrosities will never actually see play. It's like saying a feat giving +1 to Knowledge (the planes) is broken because it makes first-level Pun-Pun easier.

[Sliver]

If negative LA would actually give you levels, then you wouldn't say it's not overpowered because another level of fighter isn't that much compared to the penalties involved. It's like taking improved trip just to trip unarmed, or taking flaws that are actually relevant and make you weaker. It's the intent, but it's not how it will be used. Some stuff aren't as strong as others, so flaws still see use, but negative LA is pretty much an enhanced metamagic reducer IMO.

[Starbuck_II]

If negative LA would actually give you levels, then you wouldn't say it's not overpowered because another level of fighter isn't that much compared to the penalties involved. It's like taking improved trip just to trip unarmed, or taking flaws that are actually relevant and make you weaker. It's the intent, but it's not how it will be used. Some stuff aren't as strong as others, so flaws still see use, but negative LA is pretty much an enhanced metamagic reducer IMO.

Exactly, Negative LA only offsets other templates. You don't get another actual level.

[2xMachina]

Actually (to clarify the Sorc trick...)

Loredrake is +2 Sorc
White Dragon Spawn is +1 Sorc BUT +1LA. (Most people buy off)
Greater Draconic Ritual +1 Sorc

Total +4 Sorc at +1LA (Also, needs DragonWrought, Draconic Reserve)

IIRC, doable only at ECL3+. (Greater Ritual needs lvl 3. Buyoff LA only at 3+)

[Divide by Zero]

The only possible exception I can think of is monk levels versus Dragon HD, and even then the monk is probably better.

Monk vs. outsider? 4 more skill points per level is a big difference, not to mention the full BAB.

[Kylarra]

Yeah, reiterating what other people have said, pretty much the only "balanced" source of negative LA would be something custom tailored to your concept, not a template in a vacuum.

[Tytalus]

IIRC, doable only at ECL3+. (Greater Ritual needs lvl 3. Buyoff LA only at 3+)

No, it requires 6 HD, so ECL 7 unless you use buy-off.

[Telonius]

What might deserve negative LA...

Vow of Poverty for a non-caster. And that's if I'm having a very good day and am feeling generous.

Truenamer.

The theoretical base race (i.e. human minus the feat and skill points).

[Irreverent Fool]

It should be noted that Incarnate Construct does not actually work because there are no non-warforged constructs that have listed LA as far as I know. Nil minus two does not compute.

obnoxious
sig

[Starbuck_II]

It should be noted that Incarnate Construct does not actually work because there are no non-warforged constructs that have listed LA as far as I know. Nil minus two does not compute.

obnoxious
sig

What about Maugs (2 HD and 3LA)? They are intelligent constructs in Fiend Folio. Incarnate should work for them.

That leaves 2 HD and 1 LA Giants (Large constructs become giants from template).

[Trekkin]

I should have mentioned in my initial post that I meant negative LA with respect to the minimum LA equaling zero after all templates are applied; IE, the negative LA would be balanced by templates, not class levels.

[Zergrusheddie]

Fixed that for you.
The only possible exception I can think of is monk levels versus Dragon HD, and even then the monk is probably better.
Class levels either have better BAB or awesome class features (coughcasterscough) than racial HD. Occasionally both. Thus, anything that allows more class levels will be powerful.

A Goliath is worth one less level of Fighter or Barbarian. A Dungeon Crasher Goliath Fighter/Barbarian (Pounce) with a Spiked Chain and Shock Trooper +Knockback is awesome.

The main reason I included the almost clause was because no matter what I said, somebody who is better at Book Fu would find an excellent example of how I was wrong

But, as was stated before, taking a negative LA is exactly like taking flaws. The Wizard takes Non-Combatant and Murky-Eyes for Metamagic Feats and Metamagic Reducers. Any penalty taken is offset greatly by the advantages gained. It's similar to Point Buy Systems, but more obvious. The Orc Barbarian may be as Charismatic as a bowl of sludge but he hits hard.

[absolmorph]

A Goliath is worth one less level of Fighter or Barbarian. A Dungeon Crasher Goliath Fighter/Barbarian (Pounce) with a Spiked Chain and Shock Trooper +Knockback is awesome.

The main reason I included the almost clause was because no matter what I said, somebody who is better at Book Fu would find an excellent example of how I was wrong

Goliath is worth one less level of Fighter or Barbarian... until you can get rid of the LA.
Every single build recommends buying of the LA, if you can. And the loss being worth it isn't the same as it being better.

[deuxhero]

Fixed that for you.
The only possible exception I can think of is monk levels versus Dragon HD, and even then the monk is probably better.
Class levels either have better BAB or awesome class features (coughcasterscough) than racial HD. Occasionally both. Thus, anything that allows more class levels will be powerful.

I'd rather have phernic half fey with magic in the blood feat and lots of racial hit dice than monk hit levels.

[Kylarra]

Goliath is worth one less level of Fighter or Barbarian... until you can get rid of the LA.
Every single build recommends buying of the LA, if you can. And the loss being worth it isn't the same as it being better.

That's a pointless observation. Every single build will recommend buying off LA if you can, because exp is a river.

[TheMadLinguist]

Fixed that for you.
The only possible exception I can think of is monk levels versus Dragon HD, and even then the monk is probably better.
Class levels either have better BAB or awesome class features (coughcasterscough) than racial HD. Occasionally both. Thus, anything that allows more class levels will be powerful.

Gentlemen: The Sharn.