[D&D] Alignment Discussion

[Kaulesh]

I just began reading the Book of Exalted Deeds. I don't agree with much of its stance on alignment, but that's outside the scope of this thread.

The Book mentions that lying is evil. A paladin that tells a fib should fall - committing a minor evil for a great good outcome is still evil.

Lying is evil (major premise).
Illusion spells "lie" to their subjects (minor premise).
Therefore, illusionists must be evil (conclusion).
This is a valid argument using a completely syllological method.

I realize that alignment in D&D is always hazy and subject to rule 0 and such. These are just some random thoughts that popped into my head. I've got a CG illusionist in a PBP here and we just covered syllogism a month or so ago in one of my college courses. Maybe I'm over-analyzing?

Before anyone digs up a thread on a similar subject, I did a search first and found nothing.

[Sinfire Titan]

If anything, lying is Chaotic. Lying in such a way that you knowingly cause grevious and unwarranted harm to the listener is borderline Evil (telling the Guard Captain that his target "went that way" only to lead him into an ambush, for example).

The BoED is ****ed up. Same with the BoVD. Really, Exemplars of Evil and Heroes of Horror did the whole alignment thing better (save for the Taint mechanic, but that got screwed up by a PrC and two creature types). 90% of the Bo(E/V)D should be taken with a grain of salt and a good vodka.

[Kaulesh]

Really, Exemplars of Evil and Heroes of Horror did the whole alignment thing better (save for the Taint mechanic, but that got screwed up by a PrC and two creature types).

Thanks. I'll have to see if I can pick those two up.

[Sinfire Titan]

Thanks. I'll have to see if I can pick those two up.

EoE isn't that good a buy (pardon). The only reason to actually read it are a few feats, some small time spells, and maybe premade villain backstories.


Heroes of Horror is worth it though.

[Coplantor]

MEh, the BoED is at least good in telling that almost every evil can be redeemed. There was a redeemed illithid monk somewhere there. And there was a nice web enhacement that had a sucubus turned paladin. Can I hear fan service? Oh yeah!

[Sinfire Titan]

MEh, the BoED is at least good in telling that almost every evil can be redeemed. There was a redeemed illithid monk somewhere there. And there was a nice web enhacement that had a sucubus turned paladin. Can I hear fan service? Oh yeah!

But you could do that with Savage Species and Dominate Monster.

[Coplantor]

Ah! But would that be real redemption?

Also, the "good" version of mindrape that locks away an evil person untill it turns good, is just, NO! They go on making a book about how important it is for a good person to respect other individuals and then they throw that spell? WHAT WHERE THEY THINKING?

[Sinfire Titan]

Ah! But would that be real redemption?

Also, the "good" version of mindrape that locks away an evil person untill it turns good, is just, NO! They go on making a book about how important it is for a good person to respect other individuals and then they throw that spell? WHAT WHERE THEY THINKING?

I rather prefer the part where they say that Exalted characters do not cause prolonged suffering to their enemies, and then they print Sacred Damage within 5 pages.

[Kaulesh]

I would say something about Apostle of Peace, but anything I could say has already been said.

[Sinfire Titan]

I would say something about Apostle of Peace, but anything I could say has already been said.

Oh god tell me about it. I ban VoN and VoPc on pure principle alone; that PrC just makes me balk.

[Coplantor]

I rather prefer the part where they say that Exalted characters do not cause prolonged suffering to their enemies, and then they print Sacred Damage within 5 pages.

Hohoho, I completly forgot about that beauty of coherence. I mean, I must be one of the few supporters of the alignment system, but COME ON!
(it's ok to drop when you dont want the good vs evil universe stuff though)

[Eldonauran]

Illusion spells "lie" to their subjects (minor premise).

No, illusions mislead their subjects. What the subjects 'sees' is really there, as far as the visual representation of the magic. Whether or not the spell harms the subject is directly related how much the subjects believes the illusion is real.

Paladins can mislead another character without lying. Simply omitting certain things or not speaking on the subject at all are the best means of doing so without actually lying.

I do agree that lying is more of a chaotic act. Chaotic acts, however, do not immedaitely cause a paladin to fall. Only evil acts do so. At worst, lying would bend the code slightly and the paladin's alignment will slip a little closer to the chaotic axis. If it slips too much, the paladin simply has to attone for the minor breach.

[Sinfire Titan]

Hohoho, I completly forgot about that beauty of coherence. I mean, I must be one of the few supporters of the alignment system, but COME ON!
(it's ok to drop when you dont want the good vs evil universe stuff though)

It's a tad more irritating than their tedency to print a better magic item in under 2 pages (4E's Adventurer's Vault has one good example in the Boots section). There's a number of them in 3.5 though, just sift through the MiC to find them (Teleportation ones seem especially guilty of it).

[Coplantor]

I do agree that lying is more of a chaotic act. Chaotic acts, however, do not immedaitely cause a paladin to fall. Only evil acts do so. At worst, lying would bend the code slightly and the paladin's align will slip a little closer to the chaotic axis. If it slips too much, the paladin simply has to attone for the minor breach.

You haven't played 2nd edition huh?

Yeah, on the lying thing I have to agree that it is chaotic, using a disguise to enter the BBEG lair is lying, and I would hit any DM that goes :
"You just donned a mask! Say good bye to your special mount you fool!"

[Eldonauran]

You haven't played 2nd edition huh?

Ah, yes I have in fact. I simply assumed we were talking about 3.x edition, seeing how the BOVD and BoED were mentioned.

Yeah, on the lying thing I have to agree that it is chaotic, using a disguise to enter the BBEG lair is lying, and I would hit any DM that goes :
"You just donned a mask! Say good bye to your special mount you fool!"

I wouldn't call a disguise 'lying'. Disguise are meant to mislead and conceal. However, I would also slap a DM in the face for causing a paladin to fall because of a disguise. A single act or half a dozen acts of chaotic alignment won't make a paladin fall. While lying is a violation of the code, it is not a gross violation and only gross violation of the code, a non-lawful alignment (usually caused by lots of chaotic acts) or an evil act cause a paladin to fall.

[KillianHawkeye]

Also, the "good" version of mindrape that locks away an evil person untill it turns good, is just, NO! They go on making a book about how important it is for a good person to respect other individuals and then they throw that spell? WHAT WHERE THEY THINKING?

You're right, Good people should never put Evildoers in prison so they can pay their debt to society. They have to let them go so they can continue their evil ways. Oh wait, no they don't.

[Coplantor]

Ah, yes I have in fact. I simply assumed we were talking about 3.x edition, seeing how the BOVD and BoED were mentioned.

I wouldn't call a disguise 'lying'. Disguise are meant to mislead and conceal. However, I would also slap a DM in the face for causing a paladin to fall because of a disguise. A single act or half a dozen acts of chaotic alignment won't make a paladin fall. While lying is a violation of the code, it is not a gross violation and only gross violation of the code, a non-lawful alignment (usually caused by lots of chaotic acts) or an evil act cause a paldin to fall.

A ha! But if said disguised paladin is asked about his identity says "I'm roger the plumber!"?
Nah, really, I dont really understand why BoVD marked lying as evil when every other source book says it is not an inherently evil act.
The problem with 3.5 DnD alignment (and a lot of other stuff) is that there's a freaking huge amount of authors for suplemental material and it seems like most of them never checked the other books.

You're right, Good people should never put Evildoers in prison so they can pay their debt to society. They have to let them go so they can continue their evil ways. Oh wait, no they don't.

Prision is quite different to YOUR SOUL SHALL BE COMPLETLY ISSOLATED FROM REALITY UNTILL YOU TURN GOOD! Or, you know, mad... Anyway, ENJOY AN UNDEFINITVE AMOUNT OF TIME IN THE ETERNAL BLACKNESS OF THE UNIVERSE!

[hewhosaysfish]

Lying is evil (major premise).
Illusion spells "lie" to their subjects (minor premise).
People who learn how to do evil things must themselves be evil. (other premise)
Therefore, illusionists must be evil (conclusion).
This is a valid argument using a completely syllological method.

EDIT: Sorry, I couldn't resist it.
A statement like "this is a valid argument using a completely syllological method" was just asking for it though.

[Sinfire Titan]

Nah, really, I dont really understand why BoVD marked lying as evil when every other source book says it is not an inherently evil act.

I can answer that: The Devs don't reference their own books outside of Core (sometimes not even Core). It's horrible, the sheer number of things they could have fixed by just opening up books with a similar concept and reading the effing text.

[Coplantor]

I can answer that: The Devs don't reference their own books outside of Core (sometimes not even Core). It's horrible, the sheer number of things they could have fixed by just opening up books with a similar concept and reading the effing text.

Didnt the rest of my post said that?

[Eldonauran]

Prision is quite different to YOUR SOUL SHALL BE COMPLETLY ISSOLATED FROM REALITY UNTILL YOU TURN GOOD! Or, you know, mad... Anyway, ENJOY AN UNDEFINITVE AMOUNT OF TIME IN THE ETERNAL BLACKNESS OF THE UNIVERSE!

I actually do not see what the big deal about that spell is. Since the spell can only be cast on an evil creature and evil creatures have no regard for the life of others beyond possibily their close friends and relatives, they are receiving their rewards for their actions.

When Good confronts evil, good must make hard decisions or be swallowed up by the evil. The spell requires a good character to cast and a sacrifice on one character level in order to do so. The character that casts the spell is paying a heavy price in order to cleanse the evil from the target.

[Sinfire Titan]

Didnt the rest of my post said that?

Didn't read past that part of the post. Once my mind starts up an idea for a new post, I need to type it up ASAP or I'll likely forget it. My short-term memory is terrible.

[Coplantor]

I actually do not see what the big deal about that spell is. Since the spell can only be cast on an evil creature and evil creatures have no regard for the life of others beyond possibily their close friends and relatives, they are receiving their rewards for their actions.

When Good confronts evil, good must make hard decisions or be swallowed up by the evil. The spell requires a good character to cast and a sacrifice on one character level in order to do so. The character that casts the spell is paying a heavy price in order to cleanse the evil from the target.

I dont care about the price the caster pays, I care about what the victim of the spell gets. Jail is completely different from total issolation of the universe, that's torture, and torture is not a good act, at all.

Didn't read past that part of the post. Once my mind starts up an idea for a new post, I need to type it up ASAP or I'll likely forget it. My short-term memory is terrible.

It happens to me also, get ninja'd a lot, the worst part is when I forget I'm posting at all and leave the writing window open on a different tab for hours and when I get to it the topic had changed

[Nero24200]

I never like the whole "lying is evil" thing. I can understand particularly lawful or good characters not wanting to lie, but it shouldn't be evil.

Besides, where does it end? Should all paladins just strip Bluff form their skill list because they can't even imply an untruth? Make's sense why you see less swashbuckler-esc paladins since not being allowed to deceive at all means they also cannot feint in combat (both RAW and RAI, since the whole point of feinting is tricking your foes into thinking you're moving into one direction when you're moving to another).

Now fair enough, excessive lies or lies just for the sake of lying I could understand, but lying to save someones life could very well happen alot in D'n'D if the evil characters are the ones in control the most. If the D'n'D equivilent of Nazi's come into your house and start asking if you have and Jewish people hidding in the house, can you really call yourself "Good" if you give them up purely because "lying is naughty"?

But in general, BOED and BOVD doesn't explain alignments consistantly. I think the designers all had different views of what it should be evil/good/lawful/evil. I recall seeing something Monte Cook once wrote that pegs negative energy as being inhertily evil (and using that as the reasoning as for why udnead are always evil), but at the same time negative energy spells in the PHB don't have the evil descriptor (in fact, good aligned clerics can still cast them, which means they're theoretically getting evil spells from good gods).

[hamishspence]

Nah, really, I dont really understand why BoVD marked lying as evil when every other source book says it is not an inherently evil act.

Technically, it didn't. It said "Lying is not inherently evil, but it's so risky that a lot of good faiths forbid it"


BoED's choice of that particular one was poor- its Risky rather than Always Evil.

Paladins fall for lying because it's against the code.

Negative energy- the reason given for Animate Undead and similar spells being evil was "creating undead brings negative energy into the world, making it a darker and more evil place"

Iffy. Libris Mortis's stuff on animated undead having malevolent spirits within them, made a bit more sense.

[Eldonauran]

I dont care about the price the caster pays, I care about what the victim of the spell gets. Jail is completely different from total issolation of the universe, that's torture, and torture is not a good act, at all.

I would never call a target of this spell a victim, they are never innocent. They are receiving justice. Do NOT have sympathy for evil. They would not have any for you. That is the hard decision. Evil deserves what it gets. As far as torture goes, no where in the description of the spell does it say what happens within the gem to the evil person, aside from finding a spark of good and reflecting on its life, only the result.

Now, don't involve real life with any part of this post. This is strictly in the D&D universe where the alignment system makes the rules on good and evil and the difference between the two. A character would not be evil if he had not done something to deserve the evil alignment. I do believe that this spell should only be used as a last resort, but I would not hesitate to use it myself if I had to.

[Coplantor]

I was not involving real life here, torture is listed as an evil act, and that spell is psychological torture. I'm not having sympathy for the evil guys.
The spell can exists of course, but it's certainly not good.

As a second note, right now, the three most recently updated threads are:

Alignment
Monk
Fighter vs Wizard

How much time since a 4th ed vs 3rd ed comes up?

[hamishspence]

Victims of a Helm Of Opposite Alignment. Newborn chromatic dragons.

Being Evil doesn't actually require you to have done evil things.

And (Eberron Campaign Setting emphasises this) not all evil characters are especially malevolent, some are spiteful, greedy jerks rather than murderous villains.

[Sinfire Titan]

Do NOT have sympathy for evil. They would not have any for you.

Not true. Evil can love, Evil can care. Stereotypical Evil may not. Shades of Grey Evil will.

[Eldonauran]

I was not involving real life here, torture is listed as an evil act, and that spell is psychological torture. I'm not having sympathy for the evil guys.
The spell can exists of course, but it's certainly not good.

Updated my previous post about that. You don't know its torture as the spell doesn't reveal what happens in the gem aside from reflecting on its life and finding a spark of goodness that flames to life. I would like to believe that once the evil person finds that spark of goodness, they want to be good, because it feels good to be good. Given the chance and no distractions, it finds the will to change itself.

But, as I said, no evidence to point towards torture.

How much time since a 4th ed vs 3rd ed comes up?

Blech...