[3.5] fire into melee vs. reach weapons

[bbugg]

Here's a question -
My buddy is human with a sword, for example, so he has a 5ft reach. There's a bad dude with a whip, 15ft away who's smacking my buddy. I'm on the other side of the room and want to shoot this annoying bad dude.

Do I get -4 for firing into melee? The bad guy is in melee, but my buddy isn't. And they're like 15' apart!

[AtwasAwamps]

Here's a question -
My buddy is human with a sword, for example, so he has a 5ft reach. There's a bad dude with a whip, 15ft away who's smacking my buddy. I'm on the other side of the room and want to shoot this annoying bad dude.

Do I get -4 for firing into melee? The bad guy is in melee, but my buddy isn't. And they're like 15' apart!

Whips worked like ranged weapons with a 15' range, don't they? So no.

EDIT: I'm wrong. AS a DM, I'd still say no.

[Eldariel]

Whips worked like ranged weapons with a 15' range, don't they? So no.

EDIT: I'm wrong. AS a DM, I'd still say no.

My friend, you haven't read the fineprint. From PHB:
"If your target (or the part of your target you’re aiming at, if it’s a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you’re aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character."

So...no issue!

[Draz74]

My friend, you haven't read the fineprint. From PHB:
"If your target (or the part of your target you’re aiming at, if it’s a big target) is at least 10 feet away from the nearest friendly character, you can avoid the –4 penalty, even if the creature you’re aiming at is engaged in melee with a friendly character."

So...no issue!

Weird how, with all the corner cases they tend to miss or ignore, WotC seemingly anticipated this corner case and nicely pre-empted it.

[Eldariel]

Weird how, with all the corner cases they tend to miss or ignore, WotC seemingly anticipated this corner case and nicely pre-empted it.

A lot of the more generic ones are quite well handled by rules by now, or at the very least covered under suggestions in the DMG. Except things dealing with Magic; I guess WoTC didn't anticipate people actually use it. Which is all as well since it is pretty complex.

[bbugg]

Where in the phb did you find that?
I searched the SRD and could only find the penalty for firing into melee listed in the Precise Shot feat. I couldn't find the rule, let alone the exception! Or is it in the hard copy only?

Either way - thanks a lot for your help!!

[Eldariel]

Where in the phb did you find that?
I searched the SRD and could only find the penalty for firing into melee listed in the Precise Shot feat. I couldn't find the rule, let alone the exception! Or is it in the hard copy only?

Either way - thanks a lot for your help!!

The most obvious place: Shooting into melee. Page 140. Here on the SRD.

[bbugg]

Would you have a look at that. It would have to be obvious, wouldn't it?

I rolled a 1 on my search check.

[Person_Man]

As a side note, the penalties that ranged attacks incur (cover, firing into combat, range penalties, prone) and the resulting feat taxes (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot) are one of the main reasons ranged combat tends to be such a poor choice in 3.5.

[Eldariel]

As a side note, the penalties that ranged attacks incur (cover, firing into combat, range penalties, prone) and the resulting feat taxes (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot) are one of the main reasons ranged combat tends to be such a poor choice in 3.5.

PBS is the big one; it DOES nothing really... Just cutting it away would help a lot.

[Gnaeus]

Don't forget the awful that is firing into a grapple. We had a hit-and-run style BBEG in our last game that someone got lucky and managed to grapple. The meleers all cheered and went over to rock his world. The ranged guys all either stood around with readied actions hoping for him to escape, or joined the grapple figuring that they could keep him locked down if the big bad rolled below a 5 and the archer rolled like a 20.

[lsfreak]

My preferred method is something along the lines of:
- PBS removes the penalty for shooting into melee, and allows Dex-to-damage as precision damage is the target is unaware.
- Far Shot removes the penalty for shooting into melee, and increases projectile weapon range by 50% and thrown weapon range by 100%.
- Precise Shot removes partial cover and concealment, allows firing into grapples without risk, and has a +6BAB requirement.
- Improved Precise Shot allows ranged 'flanking' for the purposes of precision damage (including PBS damage bonus) out to 30 feet, and increases precision damage range by 30 feet.
- Everything that did require PBS now requires either PBS or Far Shot.

[Ravens_cry]

A lot of the more generic ones are quite well handled by rules by now, or at the very least covered under suggestions in the DMG. Except things dealing with Magic; I guess WoTC didn't anticipate people actually use it. Which is all as well since it is pretty complex.

And with complexity comes interaction. And with interaction comes unintended consequences. Look at Wizards other property, Magic: The Gathering. Sure, there are cards that are game breaking on their own occasionally. But usually, for the really 'you lose' decks, it's a combination, a combo, sometimes with cards that are otherwise near worthless. Even in Core, the number of possible builds is so high, it's impossible to play test them all. Another thing they didn't realize was how the Internet allowed people to come together and pool their ideas and resources. I doubt Pun-pun would exist without the internet, and certainly wouldn't be as well known. It would be, at most, something one gamer put together, tried once, laughed about ,then put away.

[Optimystik]

And with complexity comes interaction. And with interaction comes unintended consequences. Look at Wizards other property, Magic: The Gathering. Sure, there are cards that are game breaking on their own occasionally. But usually, for the really 'you lose' decks, it's a combination, a combo, sometimes with cards that are otherwise near worthless. Even in Core, the number of possible builds is so high, it's impossible to play test them all. Another thing they didn't realize was how the Internet allowed people to come together and pool their ideas and resources. I doubt Pun-pun would exist without the internet, and certainly wouldn't be as well known. It would be, at most, something one gamer put together, tried once, laughed about ,then put away.

But that's a double-edged sword. The existence of the internet means they have an untapped pool of hundreds to thousands of playtesters that can catch bugs for them, and digital distribution (thanks to DDI and the Char Builder) means they can continuously incorporate that feedback and address those balance issues through errata, which they can guarantee will be read and used in games - unlike the FAQs, errata and Rules Compendiums of the past.

If they put out a call to, say, CharOp, or BG - and said, "we have these new powers planned for 4e, can [trusted poster] gather a team of other [trusted posters] and try to break these wide open?" They don't even have to pay them - the exposure to unreleased content, maybe even a forum tag, would be compensation enough for most members of the community.

And the best part is, we the players don't have to do anything special to benefit from these enhancements. They will get added to the Character Builder without us having to lift a finger.

[Fluffles]

As a side note, the penalties that ranged attacks incur (cover, firing into combat, range penalties, prone) and the resulting feat taxes (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Far Shot) are one of the main reasons ranged combat tends to be such a poor choice in 3.5.

Which is why you play a Neraph Cleric/wizard. :) (Poly into Arrow Demon, takes a little bit more smarts to get poly on the cleric spell list. But it has the benefit af Zen Archery)