Help me choose please!

[Thunderfrog]

Hullo everyone!

I've seen a lot of neat stuff on this forum, so I'm going to go ahead and make a slight disclaimer here. I play on a PbP site that has a few unique things there, but other than that, we are limited to the 3.5 Handbook.

I'm coming into a game at 8th level. This in itself is kinda BS, because the party has a few 10th's level characters. Here is what I rolled statwise.

18
18
14
10
10
10

The Party:

7 Barb/3 Druid
10 Wizard (Evoker)
7 Cleric/3 Ranger (Good/Hunting Domains*)
9 Bard
9 Sharpshooter**
9 Duelist (Rogueish)
8 Monk

So anyways.. I'm already coming in 2 levels behind a pure casting wizard, 2 levels behind their self-buffing melee guy, and even as a pure cleric I would only be 1 level ahead of their multiclassed cleric. I guess I should pick something fun rather than even try to outpower anybody, because that wont happen.


My thoughts.

Theurge or Undead Hunter. I'll explain both.


Theurge.

I'm already going to be spell levels behind the wizard anyways, so a pure caster is kindve silly here anyways. At 8th level I can cast as a 5/5 Wizard/Divine.

I may go Druid just because the barbarian is done taking druid levels, and we already have access to higher level cleric magic than I can muster. The Druid magic would just be something the party doesnt have.

I'm also thinking gnome, so I can cast reduce person and be a tiny creature. I'll likely make that one permanant.

So I'd look like this.

Druid 3 / Wiz 3

Str 8
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 18
Wixs 18
Cha 10

Taking Druid, I can have either a buffed up riding dog, or a Eagle companion, who I can ride if I shrink down to Tiny size. This opens up the ride skill and mounted combat so I can cast from the air? Fly is probably a better use for flying casting though.

I wouldnt have any idea about feats. Definatly Craft Magic Item, which is an all encompassing craft item feat in the campaign setting.


Alternatively, I was looking at a Human Paladin/Sorceror or Ranger/Wizard Build to reach the below Prestige.


Undead Hunter in this setting gives +1 casting progression and full BAB, plus a slew of anti-undead abilities. They dont matter much, it's the full casting/bab I like. It's better than Eldritch because you dont stop a level in casting AND it's a d8 HD.

The requirements are..

BAB 3
Survival 3
Knowledge Religion 3
Feats: Track
Special: Turn Undead or Favored Enemy: Undead


Anyways.. I just want to have a niche at least in this already big and strong and superior leveled party.

Thanks for help. If you see a class combo I missed, please suggest it!

[Thunderfrog]

(Edited out some unneccesary stuff. This community is smart enough to figure out the ways to enter the class without me spelling them out.)

(Remember, 3.5 PHB only, with some world unique exceptions.)

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

Tfrog, I suggest the theurge, kind of...

Instead of being MT, take Arcane Heirophant (RotW) and be an Illumian (RoDes) with all the cheap tricks to "increase CL" so you get Epic Spellcasting around the same time as everyone else. Here's my Idea:

Illumain
Primative Wizard (one of the Dragon Magazines had this variant) 4/Quick Druid (UA Variant) 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/Archmage 1/Contemplative 1

[Nidogg]

dont choose the theurge. ITS A TRAP! Considering even progression, you will be behind the full casters. Even though you have already said this. its still not a viable choice. To have the capabilitys of the higher levl casters you have to be the same level as them. MUCH heiger if your a theurge. Try looking at Dragon magic for the awesomness that is dragon fire adepts. They can be a good choice for;
battlefeild control,
Blasting,
Debuffing,
Anticaster (Devour magic FTW!)
Ect.
Look in races of the dragon, take breath feats and smile at your new abilitys...

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

dont choose the theurge. ITS A TRAP! Considering even progression, you will be behind the full casters. Even though you have already said this. its still not a viable choice. To have the capabilitys of the higher levl casters you have to be the same level as them. MUCH heiger if your a theurge. Try looking at Dragon magic for the awesomness that is dragon fire adepts. They can be a good choice for;
battlefeild control,
Blasting,
Debuffing,
Anticaster (Devour magic FTW!)
Ect.
Look in races of the dragon, take breath feats and smile at your new abilitys...

DFA is a BS class that someone made whilst on drugs. It's not real.

From the two, I've played both and had more fun with the Arcane Heirophant, because having a War Mastadon as both a Familiar and Companion is a blast

[Voidhawk]

Here's the Dragonfire Adept, as sugested above: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...060912a&page=2

[Thunderfrog]

Remember, I'm limited to the PHB and the few unique options on the website.

I can't do anything that has a named sourcebook, so to speak. It either comes from the site, www.woldiangames.com, or from the PHB.

And dragons are off limits in the setting, either through polymorph or any other means. So nothing dragon based could fly even if I could use a sourcebook.

[Caliphbubba]

Can you use any early entry stuff to get into the theurgist build faster? I'm guessing not, because of the limits on sourcebooks.

Even so it looked like they didn't have a classic "batman" type wizard, but rather a blasterdood. If it were me I'd play a straight transmuter or whatever and let him waste casting spells that blow stuff up, while you do the whole 'save or suck/die' and/or 'all ur battlefield are belong to me' stuff.

and besides, if they're doing what they ought to be then eventually you catch up with them in level as you should be earning more if you're lower.

[Thunderfrog]

Nope. No powergamey stuff is really available since the splat books and their power creep arent available.

[Caliphbubba]

I wouldn't really call it powergamey...well maybe it is a little, but Theurge builds need it to be honest.

I still say straight wizard spec'ing in battlefield control would be pretty effective I'm thinking, given that the other wizard is an invoker.

Alternately, a straight Druid is pretty powerful and versatile.

I always thought those paladin/sorceror gish builds looked cool too.

[Eldariel]

Nope. No powergamey stuff is really available since the splat books and their power creep arent available.

Just be Druid 8 or Wizard 8 and use your magic to match up, along with WBL (Surely you don't get left behind there? If you do, make Walls of Iron or whatever and Fabricate -> sell the product to catch up). Honestly, in such a party, a level 8 caster would be more than good enough.

Theurge tho? Not. The solution to being behind in casting is NOT to be even more behind on casting. It's to use as high level casting as possible as efficiently as possible. Glitterdusts, Webs, Entangles, Transmutes, SNA4 (Unicorns), Stinking Clouds, Slows, Hastes, Greater Magic Fangs, etc. don't get obsoleted and having e.g. Beads of Karma makes up for the CL deficit.


Druid 8 has Large Wildshape and all manners of great forms and good animal companion and Monk's Belt or Wild Armor and all that. You'll be just fine; also pumping CL for Giant Vermins and such is beneficial. Next level, you'll get Animal Growth for great justice with summons and animal companion. Also, picking up some animals around with Handle Animal is flavorful and useful (Speak with Animals enables scouting and such too; do note that it's a move action to direct normal animal in combat so you should only have one extra in addition to AC for combat aid). As long as you pick Natural Spell, nothing can happen that isn't a part of your plan.

And Wizard 8 is just a Wizard with level 4 spells. If there's an evoker...well, you'll fit in just fine. Pick Crafts and such as either, cast BC Control and such; that stuff isn't really level-dependent. And Druid is good enough in melee in spite of being a level or two behind.

[Thunderfrog]

WBL?

I fear the acronym escapes me.

I was considering a straight druid, though being a Druid 7/Wizard 3 Theurge in time would be interesting.

casting wizard spells while in rhinocerous form could be kindve cool.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I'd say go strait druid 8 with those stats.



str 10 dex 10 con 18 int 14 wis 18 and cha 10.

Take any race you want.

Grab natural spell at 6th and you pritty much are on par with every one.

Make sure you grab a decent animal companion (the riding dog i belive is the best at 1st level)

Have a field day, At this point you pritty much want to stay wild shaped all day long.

[Caliphbubba]

WBL = Wealth by Level

if you want to do shapechangy-stuff and cast spells....be a wizard :-p
polymorph might not get you rhino-casting, but troll casting??? that works

[Gnaeus]

They are correct. Coming in 2 levels behind, your best bets would be to make a wizard with evocation as a prohibited school, or a druid. A true cleric could also be O.K. especially if their cleric is playing a healer.

Mystic theurge is an interesting class that I sometimes play if I find myself above the rest of my party in level, or if they are playing unoptimized, weak classes. It is a voluntary self-nerf, like shapeshift druid.

My final suggestion... It doesn't look like they have anyone with trapfinding (unless the duelist class gets it). A level 8 rogue might have a niche.

[Eldariel]

WBL?

I fear the acronym escapes me.

I was considering a straight druid, though being a Druid 7/Wizard 3 Theurge in time would be interesting.

casting wizard spells while in rhinocerous form could be kindve cool.

You don't get Wildshape as a Theurge; it only advances your casting from Druid, nothing else. Another reason not to do it (and your Wildshape would be much worse anyways; Arcane Hierophant gets it but you're still 3 levels behind in Forms and Large Wildshape and Wildshape attempts and so on).

WBL = Wealth By Level; that is, I'm assuming you won't be horribly poorer than the rest of the PCs and if you will, I suggest you find a means to generate some extra fund; as a spellcaster, there are plenty (just selling your services gets you nice funds).


Overall, Druid 8 is precisely what you want. He has some very wizardly casting anyways, though not as impressive but still plenty versatile and powerful. Wizard has stronger casting, of course, but Druid isn't that far behind and as such, you should get the same feel by going straight Druid.

I strongly suggest against damage spells though due to your level being so far behind; you can do more damage with just attacks anyways. Feats that either improve your melee (Multiattack for Wildshape, Power Attack, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, etc.), or casting (Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, Spell Penetrations, Augment Summoning) and generally useful stuff like Crafts are things that wouldn't be troubled by the level difference. As long as you pick Natural Spell on 6 and use Armor on AC and some form of defense on yourself though, you're fine. Spellcasting Bears are scary, and twice as scary when they can also eat your face.

[Thunderfrog]

Thanks for the help.

As a last thought, does anyone have any ideas about the Paladin/Sorc, or is it just crap in 3.5?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Thanks for the help.

As a last thought, does anyone have any ideas about the Paladin/Sorc, or is it just crap in 3.5?

with out splat books yes yes it is.

[Eldariel]

Thanks for the help.

As a last thought, does anyone have any ideas about the Paladin/Sorc, or is it just crap in 3.5?

It's fine; generally you want to go Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Dual Progression PrC but in Core you need Paladin 2/Sorcerer 6 to qualify for Eldritch Knight making it something of a late bloomer. Paladin 2/Sorc 6/Eldritch Knight 10 isn't all that horrible, but Paladin 2/Sorc 6 is unimpressive overall (melee with BAB 5, casting with 6th level spells).

Out of core, you get Paladin 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8 which comes to its own (compared to straight Sorcerer) much earlier and overall, functions much smoother and gains more appropriate abilities (Sacred Exorcist is a nice divine-themed PrC arcane classes can take seamlessly tying Paladin and Sorcerer; also, you get Turn Undead from there to power Divine feats).


In other words, the combination itself is not bad, but the tools to make it work well and early don't really exist in Core.

EDIT: And having to take the 3rd level of Paladin for Undead Hunter has a paralyzing effect on your spellcasting.

[Gnaeus]

Sorcadins are fun. They aren't bad, exactly. On the other hand, they aren't something I would want to play at a 2 level disadvantage either. When the wizard is level 11 casting 6th level spells, you would be level 9, Sorc level 7, casting 3rd level spells. Anything he can't destroy you probably can't touch.

Edit: At the same time, you wouldn't be close to equal to the other meleers in your party. Anything that would go toe to toe with a Barb7/Druid 3 will eat you.

[Vizzerdrix]

Have you considered taking a crack at a mounted Druid?

[Gnaeus]

Or a druid who is someone's mount? See who has the ride skill .

[Eldariel]

Or a druid who is someone's mount? See who has the ride skill .

Or both? Ride your mount and someone rides you.

[AtwasAwamps]

He can probably hit supermount by that level, can't he?

Haven't checked the sight you linked, but if halfling outrider is on there, you can end up with a mount that's stronger than the barbarian druid...

[Keld Denar]

Pally/Sorc is AWESOME if you have the book support, which you don't. The Sorcadin, or Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8 is a very highly recognized build. Unfortunately, you don't have access to any of the classes that splice them together, or any of the really nice feats and spells to really take full advantage of a really high Cha. That means you are basically a sorcerer who's already ~5 levels behind the highest level spells the wizard can cast. He's droppin level 5s, you'll barely have 2s.

That Hunter of the Dead you described could be kinda interesting. You could qualify as a Paladin2/Sorcerer2/Hunter4. You just take Track at either 1 or 3, and you'd get 3 crossclass ranks in survival by level 3. Level 4 gets you that 3rd BAB you need, and you're off. You'd have the effective casting of a 6th level sorcerer. Take Enlarge Person, Shield, Mirror Image, and Haste for sure, maybe a couple others. Get a 2handed weapon and take Power Attack. Buff up and dance. Still, doesn't get Law Devotion, Minor Shapeshift, Versatile Spellcaster, or Abjurant Champion's ability to swift-cast Shield and a couple other protections. Thats rough.

I guess I'd echo the wizard idea. 8th level would get you 4th level spells, and there are some doosies in there. Be a Conjourer, and spend all 4 of your 4th level spell slots on Evard's Black Tenticles. Even being 2 levels behind the other players, almost nothing large sized or smaller is going to be able to compete with the lockdown that EBT provides. That means that you can lock them down, and the Evoker can nuke them from orbit. Take Haste, and cast it after your first EBT, buffing up the rest of your rather large party so that they can fully pick apart anything that wasn't caught in the EBT. Take Enlarge Person, if you get a chance to buff, and drop it on the Barbarian or the Monk, increasing their effectiveness by nearly a factor of 2.

Basically, play the Batman wizard.

[RagnaroksChosen]

He can probably hit supermount by that level, can't he?

Haven't checked the sight you linked, but if halfling outrider is on there, you can end up with a mount that's stronger than the barbarian druid...

he doesn"t have the splat books nessasary for super mount.

[Eldariel]

That Hunter of the Dead you described could be kinda interesting.

Big issue is that this doesn't qualify; the class requires Turn Undead or FE: Undead and Pally only gets Turn on level 3, and yeah. Which...sucks, especially already being levels behind.

[ErrantX]

I'm going to 2nd the suggestion of just playing a straight 8th level druid, or follow Keld's suggestion on being a Conjurer (ban Evocation and Enchantment) and Batman like crazy. You'll catch up with them XP-wise soon enough, and just enjoy yourself.

-X

[Pluto]

dont choose the theurge. ITS A TRAP! Considering even progression, you will be behind the full casters.

...Seriously?
His party's full casters are a blaster Wizard and a Bard.
As long as he plays intelligently, he shouldn't have trouble contributing, even with only 3rd level spells.

And level differences don't last long.

I'd stick with Druid a few more levels though. At least until Wild Shape comes into the picture. Straight Druid might get a bit out of hand in this group, but it isn't a *bad* call.



Paladin/Sorcerer is playable, but you'll be starting at one of the most fragile points in its progression. Unless you plan on sitting in the back and only using Paladin for its save boosts, I wouldn't expect this sort of character to survive in this type of campaign.

[Eldariel]

...Seriously?
His party's full casters are a blaster Wizard and a Bard.
As long as he plays intelligently, he shouldn't have trouble contributing, even with only 3rd level spells.

And level differences don't last long.

I'd stick with Druid a few more levels though. At least until Wild Shape comes into the picture. Straight Druid might get a bit out of hand in this group, but it isn't a *bad* call.

He's about 20k behind on experience. That's equivalent to having crafted equipment with 250000gp, to put it into perspective; it's not covered under the usual XP Is A River; that'll take time to catch up. He will gain about 50% more XP, but it's gonna take 4-5 levels for that to catch up as the pace slows down once he catches up one level... As such, I think he should optimize something severe; most importantly, Druid with 18 Con (or 20 if Gnome) would make him extremely survivable, which is going to be absolute key with a two-level deficit; huge Wis & Con, good Fort & Will-progressions and magic together should mean he's fine in that regard.

Holding back too much might lead to trouble; once he catches up he can hold back but until then, I'd go all-out at least defensively. Also, level 9 gives poison immunity which takes the teeth off few annoying CR 11-12 encounters, which are like to be par de course here.