Do holy weapons deal holy, untyped, or physical damage?

[taltamir]

Do holy weapons deal holy, untyped, or physical damage?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...apons.htm#holy

Holy
A holy weapon is imbued with holy power. This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment. It bestows one negative level on any evil creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level never results in actual level loss, but it cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the holy power upon their ammunition.

Moderate evocation [good]; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, holy smite, creator must be good; Price +2 bonus.

Three possibilities:

1. Logic and the name of the enhancement indicates that the damage is holy/sacred/positive energy.

2. The writing does not indicate a type (thus, untyped)

3. However, it could also just be assumed to be physical damage of the same type as the base weapon (as the +1 and +2 etc enhancements do) because this is damage whose type is unspecified that comes from a weapon, not a spell.

Please cite RAW backing for your reasoning.

[Nidogg]

I agree. It would however by that definition be also good aligned so negating DR of appropriate type.

[Keld Denar]

Well, Holy aligns the WHOLE weapon good, so that point is moot.

I've seen most of those defined as "untyped" energy, like Viscious weapon and stuff. Its not affected by DR or Energy Resistance. Holy weapons are just discirminatory about who they damage, unlike Viscious.

[taltamir]

I agree. It would however by that definition be also good aligned so negating DR of appropriate type.

You agree? ha.
I said does it do A, B or C... which of those do you agree with? ;p

Well, Holy aligns the WHOLE weapon good, so that point is moot.

I've seen most of those defined as "untyped" energy, like Viscious weapon and stuff. Its not affected by DR or Energy Resistance. Holy weapons are just discirminatory about who they damage, unlike Viscious.

What do you mean aligns the whole weapon?
Are you saying a holy longsword deals 1d8+STR+2d6 holy damage and no longer counts as slashing?

[Lapak]

Much like Bane weapons, the extra damage is the same type as the weapon dealing it. Which in the case of, say, a longsword, would be slashing damage. All of the slashing damage is good-aligned, naturally, but it's still slashing damage. DR X/- would still apply, as would DR X/blunt and good.

[Yuki Akuma]

You agree? ha.
I said does it do A, B or C... which of those do you agree with? ;p



What do you mean aligns the whole weapon?
Are you saying a holy longsword deals 1d8+STR+2d6 holy damage and no longer counts as slashing?

No, it's all slashing damage. It's just that the whole weapon is good-aligned now, so all of it bypasses x/good DR.

[Keld Denar]

What do you mean aligns the whole weapon?
Are you saying a holy longsword deals 1d8+STR+2d6 holy damage and no longer counts as slashing?

He was implying that since the damage from holy is...well, holy, it should bypass DR/Good. Holy aligns the weapon to good though, so ALL of the damage that weapon does (including bonus damage like SA or PA, or Str, or whatever, so long as it isn't a specific element like fire) bypasses DR/Good.

In example form:
He implied that a +1 Holy Longsword hits a devil with DR 10/Good, the 1d8+1 would be reduced by the DR, while the +2d6 from holy would bypass it.

This is not the case.

Holy aligns the WHOLE weapon to good, so the 1d8+1 would bypass the DR, and the devil would take 1d8+1+2d6, since his DR would do nothing.

Its still physical slashing damage, so if the devil had another item that gave him DR 10/Bludgeoning, it would mitigate the Longsword damage, but not the +2d6 holy damage.

[Tyger]

Its still physical slashing damage, so if the devil had another item that gave him DR 10/Bludgeoning, it would mitigate the Longsword damage, but not the +2d6 holy damage.

Most of your post I agree with, but is there a source for this last bit? "Extra" damage in our group (such as the above) has been just directly added, like a STR bonus, and the DR would then apply against the total damage of the weapon (in your example, 1d8 + 2d6 + STR bonus). That might be a houserule, but I can't find any source for anything other than that.

[taltamir]

No, it's all slashing damage. It's just that the whole weapon is good-aligned now, so all of it bypasses x/good DR.

That is obvious, thats the whole point of DR/Good. it means holy bypasses it. Besides it explicitly states that.

the question is what type of damage is dealt by the extra 2d6 dice.

In example form:
He implied that a +1 Holy Longsword hits a devil with DR 10/Good, the 1d8+1 would be reduced by the DR, while the +2d6 from holy would bypass it.

This is not the case.

I never implied that. If anything I implied that a devil with DR10/Cold Iron AND Good will not have the damage bypass it with a holy steel sword.

A balor for example has Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good
Hitting him with a +1 holy steel longsword deals 1d8+1+STR+2d6

The 1d8+1+STR does not ignore its DR because it isn't cold iron.
The holy deals 2d6, whether it ignores its DR or not depends on whether it deals holy (ignores DR), untyped (ignores DR), or physical damage (does not ignore DR).

[Eldonauran]

physical damage (does not ignore DR).

Holy damage is not a type of damage. In the above situation, 15/cold iron and holy, the 2d6 (holy) damage would be affected by the Damage reduction.

1d8+1+STR+2d6 is all considered weapon damage (slashing if a sword). All holy does is make all the damage the weapon does bypass Good (and only good) Damage reduction.

[taltamir]

Holy damage is not a type of damage. In the above situation, 15/cold iron and holy, the 2d6 (holy) damage would be affected by the Damage reduction.

1d8+1+STR+2d6 is all considered weapon damage (slashing if a sword). All holy does is make all the damage the weapon does bypass Good (and only good) Damage reduction.

why is it slashing and not untyped? it does not specify the type of damage, only that it is 2d6 damage.
Please cite RAW on why it is physical damage of the same type of the base weapon (option 3 of the 3 options I outlined in the original question) and not option 1 or 2.

[Eldonauran]

why is it slashing and not untyped? it does not specify the type of damage, only that it is 2d6 damage.

Because the sword is slashing damage. Additional damage effects are listed as having a type (see flaming or icy burst). Holy simply makes the weapon more effective against creatures with the evil alignment, and bypasses DR/Good.

If you want RAW...

This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment.

Bolded words are mine. 'It' refers to the 'weapon' and not an untyped damage. 'The sword deals additional damage', in effect. And the 'sword' deals slashing damage.

Also, away from books at the moment, but see the section about weapon-like spells in the complete arcane. Most importantly, the bit about sneak attacking. A rogue's sneak attack has no type, but it takes on the type of damage that the weapon it is used with. Ie, Negative energy ray -> sneak attack is negative energy. Scorching Ray -> Fire damage.

[Keld Denar]

I never implied that.

No you, the poster under you. I guess I should have quoted him for clarity.

[taltamir]

This power makes the weapon good-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of evil alignment.

Bolded words are mine. 'It' refers to the 'weapon' and not an untyped damage. 'The sword deals additional damage', in effect. And the 'sword' deals slashing damage.

No it doesn't.
It refers to "This power" not "weapon"

Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls.

This seems to be precedence towards counting that extra damage that holy deals as physical damage of the same type as the base weapon rather then untyped damage. As the +1 through +5 does not specify a type but counts as the same as the base weapon.
That is, unless that is also wrong and the +1 through +5 should be untyped as well :P

[tonberrian]

The wording of the holy text is consistent with both the wording of the bane text and the description of the Sneak Attack ability. Since neither of those have any elemental connotations and I'm pretty sure Sneak Attack damage is reduced by DR, I'm forced to conclude that 3 is correct, that the additional damage is physical in nature.

On the other hand, I feel that, thematically, the 2d6 from holy should deal energy damage and bypass DR.

[taltamir]

The wording of the holy text is consistent with both the wording of the bane text and the description of the Sneak Attack ability. Since neither of those have any elemental connotations and I'm pretty sure Sneak Attack damage is reduced by DR, I'm forced to conclude that 3 is correct, that the additional damage is physical in nature.

On the other hand, I feel that, thematically, the 2d6 from holy should deal energy damage and bypass DR.

I agree with all of it. Thematically I feel it should be, but the wording is consistent with it being extra physical damage.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The damage of holy/unholy

A flaming or other energy weapon says it deals an additional [type] of damage.
"A [x] weapon deals an extra 1d6 points of [x] damage"

Insert fire, frost or shock as you see fit. The type of damage is listed.


Axiomatic/holy/unholy/anarchic/ weapons say they deal and extra 2d6 damage to [aligned] creatures. No where does it say this damage overcomes DR.[energy types by default overcome DR]. So we can not say that say a holy weapon bypasses DR except for evil creatures obviously.

If the damage completely ignored DR it would probably say so, if it was some type of energy it say so. Lacking any additional information we can only assume the additional damage form a holy weapon is the same as the base, But of course the whole weapon overcomes DR/evil.

But really if your fighting a creature which DR is high enough you need that extra 2d6 just to scratch it. Your already in big trouble.

[Escheton]

So a "+1 merciful holy guisarme" full activated against an evil opponent deals 2d4+3d6+1+strx1.5 subdual slashing dmg?
and not 2d4+1d6+1+x1.5str subdual and 2d6 untyped?

sweet

[Lord Vukodlak]

Even if the extra damage was a form of energy it still be subduing.
A merciful weapon makes ALL damage non-lethal.

[taltamir]

Even if the extra damage was a form of energy it still be subduing.
A merciful weapon makes ALL damage non-lethal.

have some non lethal ACID and FIRE in your face!

does it still hurt? because it can make for unimaginably effect torture devices...
A flaming/acid spiked probe with the merciful enhancement could be the ultimate torture device.

[Yuki Akuma]

have some non lethal ACID and FIRE in your face!

Nonlethal Substitution. The Wizard can do that too.

[Escheton]

all? really?
I figured fire stays fire but the rest becomes subdual.
hmm...sweet

[taltamir]

someone in brilliant gameologists pointed this out to me:
skydragonknight: "Vicious was ruled as "energy damage" in the FAQ, so DR doesn't stop you from hurting yourself."

Me: Could you please explain how vicious ties into the current discussion? I am not seeing the connection.

skydragonknight: "It also adds 2d6 damage, which was clarified in the 3.5 FAQ to be untyped energy damage. Just providing evidence that some weapon properties add untyped energy damage, so it might be possible with holy."

[Shalist]

3.5 FAQ link
I bring this up since the extra damage from bane and holy essentially work the same (getting through /good DR aside, of course)

Suppose I have a weapon that is bane vs. constructs and it is not made of adamantine. If I attack an iron golem with this weapon, does the weapon bypass the golem’s damage reduction? In general, will a bane weapon bypass damage reduction when you use it to attack a designated foe?

The bane property doesn’t bypass damage reduction. If you hit a designated foe, however, the extra damage you deal helps you overcome any damage reduction the foe has. For example, if you have a Strength score of 16 and you hit an iron golem with a +1 construct bane longsword, you’ll deal 1d8 +1 (base damage from the +1 sword) +2 (extra enhancement bonus against your designated foe from the bane property) + 3 (Strength bonus) + 2d6 (bonus damage against your designated foe). On average you’ll deal 17 or 18 points of damage to the golem, which is enough to get a few points of damage past the golem’s damage reduction of 15/adamantine.

edit:

Bane

A bane weapon excels at attacking one type or subtype of creature. Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe...

[Lord Vukodlak]

someone in brilliant gameologists pointed this out to me:
skydragonknight: "Vicious was ruled as "energy damage" in the FAQ, so DR doesn't stop you from hurting yourself."

Me: Could you please explain how vicious ties into the current discussion? I am not seeing the connection.

skydragonknight: "It also adds 2d6 damage, which was clarified in the 3.5 FAQ to be untyped energy damage. Just providing evidence that some weapon properties add untyped energy damage, so it might be possible with holy."

The thing with a vicious weapon is it damages the wielder as a draw back, they don't want that draw back to be avoidable. Secondly, the FAQ contains no reference to vicious weapons I checked. Thirdly the SRD entry states its disruptive energy it says it by name to be energy just like for element weapons.

Holy weapons do not say its holy energy.