[Exalted] Regarding system lethality and houserules

[Weimann]

So, last night I STed an Exalted session over MSN. It was pretty fun, if a bit slow at times, but I'm still learning the ropes more or less. This was also the reason for the unplanned manner in which the session turned out.

My Solar circle was approaching a gang of thieves that they weren't sure were thieves (they may also have been pretty ugly mercenaries hired by a friend). The Twilight was using Radiant Majestic Presence, and the sparkles made the robbers uneasy and they grew aggressive. The Twilight then tried to ease them, but having Presence 5 doesn't help when you have Performance 0.

And you botch.

So I got a carte blance to make them miserable. I got the idea to scare them a bit by introducing a character that was supposed to be part of the boss group, so after a few ticks of battle he stormed in on the battlefield. This guy was supposed to be good muscle; certainly a physical character who could hold his own, particularly at distance but also in melee. He had his perfect defense and all.

He lasted a total of 1 single tick, against an Excellency-enhanced attack with a mundane weapon. Sliced him up in 6 equal parts that fell wetly to the floor. A goddamn Solar-equivalent Exalt. Damn that unexpected attack. This was supposed to be a bad situation as a result of a botch, not an offhand irritation swatted like a fly. He was also supposed to be reoccurring.

In retrospect, I realise the fault was mine on several points. First of all, I sent him in alone against 4 Solar PCs, which was just stupid. I also thought surprise only denied you charms use, not the entirety of your DVs, which was a significant reading comprehension error on my point. Third, I had given him a perfect defense, but no surprise negator, which would have been thematic. Reflex Sidestep Technique would have been great for him.

Well, faults mine and I learned a lesson. However, there are upcoming fights where people will just not have a thematic reason to have a surprise negator, and I don't want them dying before they can even have the chance to be cool. That was the main thing that pissed me off. I had a combat routine figured out for this guy that I was pretty proud of, and he doens't even get to act. Similar will most likely be true for many other enemies ahead. That's not okay.

So I thought about ways to drastically improve survivability, and this is what I came up with. It's not elegant, it's a patchwork solution, but it might serve a purpose. The idea is to increase health levels like hell.

Buying Ox-Body Technique costs 3 xp normally and 2 xp if favoured or caste, and may be bought up to 2x(Resistance) times.

Every dot of Stamina awards a free Ox-Body Technique that doesn't count towards the 2x(Resistance) maximum.

Every dot of Essence awards one free -0, two free -1 AND two free -2 health levels.

I'm also considering using some of these weapon and artifact rules, written by Mercurio, since they seem to be a tad less lethal than the Core version.

These rules will apply to Exalts, not extras, mortals or heroic mortals. I'm not yet sure about gods, demons and spirits, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

I hope this will make to so that people can at least survive a little longer. It might alleviate a bit on the requirement to have a paranoia combo, while still making having one very worthwhile.

What do sharper brains than mine think about this?

Also posted here, to get more opinions.

[nargbop]

Easy answer : There's a reason it's called Incapacitated instead of Dead. It allows the ST to say "You fall, gravely wounded" without killing them and forcing the player to make another story and character. Or leave. Players always have the option to just leave when the ST places the rules in preference to the story, and IMO they should exercise it.

[Draxar]

Remember that people have a number of 'dying' health levels equal to their stamina, more if they're Lunars with Ox Body.

How did they get suprise on that guy? He just didn't expect them to do that? Make the next guy expect it.

The downsides of massively increasing the number of health levels is that firstly, that strongly devalues other defensive techniques comparatively. And secondly, will result stupidly, painfully long combats when combined with people who have suprise negators and general paranoia combos.

It slightly reduces the need for paranoia combos, but only slightly – there's various 'I touch you, your soul falls off' charms, plus you can just make more attacks/have more attackers. Playing Exalted beyond a certain level, optimisation-wise, requires paranoia combos.

[Lochar]

Our game here on the boards runs with the idea that you get 1 free ox-body per dot of stamina you have. Everyone gets it, if their type has an ox-body to use.

It makes people a lot less squishy, lessens the need for paranoia combos, but still keeps the game roughly in line with what it used to be. Eventually you get characters with enough accuracy that they're going to rip through an extra 5-10 health levels like nothing, but actually makes a Deathlord or high powered behemoth/heka/whatever actually a challenge.

[Weimann]

Easy answer : There's a reason it's called Incapacitated instead of Dead. It allows the ST to say "You fall, gravely wounded" without killing them and forcing the player to make another story and character.

Yes, but this damage was quite overwhelming.

Or leave. Players always have the option to just leave when the ST places the rules in preference to the story, and IMO they should exercise it.

Unfortunately, I was the ST in this case :D So I'm not so keen on scurrying off, when it's clearly a system problem, not a player one.

How did they get suprise on that guy? He just didn't expect them to do that? Make the next guy expect it.

Ah, yeah, I didn't mention. There was a Night caste around who didn't Join Battle in the first stage. He instead sneaked around the room checking stuff out. Then, he took the chance to unleash the backstab from hiding.

Our game here on the boards runs with the idea that you get 1 free ox-body per dot of stamina you have. Everyone gets it, if their type has an ox-body to use.

It makes people a lot less squishy, lessens the need for paranoia combos, but still keeps the game roughly in line with what it used to be. Eventually you get characters with enough accuracy that they're going to rip through an extra 5-10 health levels like nothing, but actually makes a Deathlord or high powered behemoth/heka/whatever actually a challenge.

Hm. I see. I've received some implication that my first proposal was an overkill elsewhere, so maybe it's smarter to start out small and increase gradually if I'm not happy with the results. There's no doubt that most of the problem with the current situation is that I played that guy like a drunk skunk, after all.

Anyway, thanks for your input. I think I will settle for the 1 Ox-Body per dot of Stamina (or Essence; Essence is a more wanted stat wo it'll help the change have impact better, but Stamina is more thematic, and it might reversely encourage buying it more), that doesn't count towards the normal limit of (Resistance), and also use Mercurio's rules regarding weapons and a few other things.

Thanks for your help :)

[Tiki Snakes]

Given that this is, after all, Exalted we are talking about here, I'd suggest allowing them the occaisional moment of back-stabbity-awesome. It's not really the type of game where the DM should be overly concerned about the players breaking out and doing unexpected or impossible things.

Plan more loosely, perhaps. Have the Villains behave more carefully, and if they manage to punch the BBEG's soul off, so be it?

[Jerthanis]

Well, my solution is just to never, ever let people get the drop on people without seriously working for it.

Building Antagonists is not like building PCs, because building a PC, you know you've got the fact that the DM doesn't really want to kill you on your side, so you can afford to play around, take nonoptimal stuff, and generally make what 'feels right', with antagonists, the PCs are pulling out everything they have to put them in their grave as fast as they can. Antagonists need redundant defenses, absolutely maximized Wits, Dexterity, Perception, and Awareness with Essence Flow for Awareness and Resistance just in case. Don't be afraid to let them enter most battles with their Simple; Scenelong charms already activated.

The problem with handing out a bunch of health levels is that the PCs benefit as well, so you will need to be able to generate 30L+ postsoak to make the PCs feel significantly threatened, and the antagonists will still be diced in the blade windmills, just over the course of 12 ticks instead of 1.

So in conclusion: Don't hesitate to give them every defense in the book because we'll still blow through them; Maybe require stricter requirements to fulfill the terms of Easily Overlooked Presence and Mental Invisibility; Don't listen to everything we tell you, it's your game and you can rule whatever you want. Whatever our experience is with the system, it's our role to be flexible.

[pasko77]

I'll just compliment on accepting the situation and not DM fiat "he is still alive so I can go with my combo".

That's something hard to do as a Story teller (or Dungeon master or whatever).
Good job!

[Weimann]

Well, my solution is just to never, ever let people get the drop on people without seriously working for it.

Hehe, that's a solution of course, but I felt I couldn't really deny him his surprise there; after all, he WAS hidden :D

So in conclusion: Don't hesitate to give them every defense in the book because we'll still blow through them; Maybe require stricter requirements to fulfill the terms of Easily Overlooked Presence and Mental Invisibility; Don't listen to everything we tell you, it's your game and you can rule whatever you want. Whatever our experience is with the system, it's our role to be flexible.

Oh God, I'd be so scared to kill you all at once :D

I guess I'll just toughen up a bit.

I'll just compliment on accepting the situation and not DM fiat "he is still alive so I can go with my combo".

That's something hard to do as a Story teller (or Dungeon master or whatever).
Good job!

Why thanks! I will claim the praise for my great morale and not mention that I totally forgot I could do that.

[Talkkno]

I think you should remove Essence Ping as well.

[Jerthanis]

I think you should remove Essence Ping as well.

I don't tend to like this solution, as it just encourages even more sliding towards every combatant using a Grand Daiklaive or Goremaul than already exists.

I would agree that capping Essence ping at, say, 5 or so might be appropriate.

[hewhosaysfish]

Did this guy introduce himself? Or can the players unambiguously identify him in some other way?

Because if all they saw was "bad dude in charge of all the thugs" then all time you spent creating this guy could still be put to good use...