Born of Three Thunders + Immunity to Daze

[Boci]

Do you personally consider the above combo as cheesy or is it acceptable for a blasting sorceror to use?

[Abd al-Azrad]

I hate to take this position, because I'm somewhat of a fan of badass optimization in my own characters, but immunity to Daze is really one of those effects that RAI seems to suggest shouldn't exist, and the occasional (VERY occasional) ability that grants immunity seem to be poorly thought out. The obvious abuse of Daze immunity comes with Celerity, but this is a similarly awesome/broken abuse of action economy.

I really wouldn't feel as strongly about min-maxing and finding ways to cover your weaknesses if the issue wasn't action economy. This is a combo that removes actions from an entire enemy party at no cost, and can easily be spammed. Actions are the most valuable resource in D&D. 'Broken' may not be the word to describe your combo here, but it really does mess up the mechanics of combat in your favour, more than most attacks are capable of. I'd personally feel bad about using it, which indicates a high level of cheese.

I suppose I am a bit lactose intolerant.

[arguskos]

Born of the Three Thunders is one of the rare metamagic feats I don't permit, just because it's too powerful and easy to abuse. Combine with an AoE electricity damage effect, or a continuous electricity damage effect, and it just gets stupidly ugly really fast.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Easiest way to be immune to daze would be the Template Shuffle. Specifically: Necropolitian

[Divide by Zero]

Easiest way to be immune to daze would be the Template Shuffle. Specifically: Necropolitian

Undead are immune to stunning, not dazing. Unless I missed something, no type gives immunity to dazing.

[arguskos]

Undead are immune to stunning, not dazing. Unless I missed something, no type gives immunity to dazing.

Correct. I believe the primary method of daze immunity is getting access to Favor of the Martyr and going from there.

[Divide by Zero]

Correct. I believe the primary method of daze immunity is getting access to Favor of the Martyr and going from there.

There's also a Dragonmark-related feat in one of the Eberron books, if I'm not mistaken, and an item or two that does it a couple of times per day.

[Runestar]

Considering how rare daze immunity is, I see no reason to ban it, since acquiring it is already half the challenge (and I don't use eberron material).

[Myou]

Considering how rare daze immunity is, I see no reason to ban it, since acquiring it is already half the challenge (and I don't use eberron material).

One spell. Zero challenge. And it's in the SpC too.

[Runestar]

One spell. Zero challenge. And it's in the SpC too.

I see they have changed it from a favoured of ilmater4 spell (in player's guide to faerun) to paladin4 spell.

Still, that means it isn't available until lv14, and even then, a paladin can't afford to constantly keep it up on you. I suppose the wizard could craft a wand of it to use though...

[Boci]

Born of the Three Thunders is one of the rare metamagic feats I don't permit, just because it's too powerful and easy to abuse. Combine with an AoE electricity damage effect, or a continuous electricity damage effect, and it just gets stupidly ugly really fast.

So you wouldn't alloe it even without any protection against the dazing affect?

[Boci]

I really wouldn't feel as strongly about min-maxing and finding ways to cover your weaknesses if the issue wasn't action economy.

So what if I just took quick recovery and boosted my will save?

[Myou]

I see they have changed it from a favoured of ilmater4 spell (in player's guide to faerun) to paladin4 spell.

Still, that means it isn't available until lv14, and even then, a paladin can't afford to constantly keep it up on you. I suppose the wizard could craft a wand of it to use though...

Or the Archivist, or the Artificier.

[Runestar]

Or the Archivist, or the Artificier.

Yes...I remember now why wotc apparently gave up trying to balance 3.5 material altogether. It just wasn't worth the effort...

[Myou]

Yes...I remember now why wotc apparently gave up trying to balance 3.5 material altogether. It just wasn't worth the effort...

They never tried to begin with.

[Person_Man]

There's also the Quick Recovery feat from Lords of Madness, which lets you recover from a Daze effect as a Move Action, or Iron Heart Surge, which can end anything as a Standard Action. But the general intent of Daze effects is that nothing is immune to them, which is why Daze effects are so powerful and (comparatively) rare.

[Divide by Zero]

There's also the Quick Recovery feat from Lords of Madness, which lets you recover from a Daze effect as a Move Action, or Iron Heart Surge, which can end anything as a Standard Action. But the general intent of Daze effects is that nothing is immune to them, which is why Daze effects are so powerful and (comparatively) rare.

Iron Heart Surge isn't much help. You need to take an action to use a maneuver, and since most daze effects are only one round, spending an action to gain the use of that action is...of questionable benefit, if it were even legal to begin with.

[Boci]

There's also a Dragonmark-related feat in one of the Eberron books, if I'm not mistaken, and an item or two that does it a couple of times per day.

Mark of the Dauntless, although I'm not quite sure what the preq of any true dragonmark means.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Mark of the Dauntless, although I'm not quite sure what the preq of any true dragonmark means.

You need the Least Dragonmark (any) feat, and can't qualify with Aberrant Dragonmark.

[Ganurath]

I find the easiest way to get immunity to daze is to already be dazed. For example, using Celerity to cast a Born of Three Thunders Explosive Electric Fireball, following up with a second BoTTEEF with a standard action. You have three things saying you'll be dazed next turn, so unless they stack for duration... Arcane Thesis FTW?

[Yukitsu]

Born of the Three Thunders is one of the rare metamagic feats I don't permit, just because it's too powerful and easy to abuse. Combine with an AoE electricity damage effect, or a continuous electricity damage effect, and it just gets stupidly ugly really fast.

By my reading of born of three thunders, it only has a thunderclap when the effect ends. It says "In addition, the spell concludes with a mighty thunderclap that stuns all creatures that take damage from the spell..." emphasis on concludes. It's a lot less broken that way.

[Eldonauran]

As a DM, I am a strong advocate for enforcing the sacrifice payments of spells or abilities. If you can't pay, you don't get to use the benefit. If you are immune to the effect and still want to use the ability/spell, we come up with an payment that is equal in its drawback.

No strongheart vests or bindings to take away your CON damage from hellfire warlock. No celerity shinanigans or bypassing the daze effects from born of three thunders.

If you play differently, glad you are having fun.

[Yukitsu]

No strongheart vests or bindings to take away your CON damage from hellfire warlock.

The binder payment is paying the cost then healing it, as they have fast heal for stats. They are still affected by the effect. That's like saying a hellfire warlock can't have a cleric cast restoration on them.

Edit: Oh right, they both do that.

[Heliomance]

Strongheart vests don't remove the CON damage. Hellfire warlock specifically states that if you're immune to the con damage it has no effect. Strongheart vests heal the con damage.

[Pechvarry]

I suppose this feat has been discussed to death elsewhere in the vast interwebs, but it looks like it only knocks prone those who are stunned. This means the vast array of monsters that are immune to critical hits (which tend to also be immune to stunning) will simply take damage. They won't even be bowled over.

Seems like this combo would just make your DM turn every story arc into an undead hunt.

It's also rather weak to Evasion. Expect groups of assassins to be sent after the PCs... a lot. High reflex save + evasion > take no damage > no need to make three thunder saves.

Edit>> Doesn't Strongheart vest effectively give you "con damage reduction"? Like "any effect that lowers your CON score lowers it by 2 less than normal" or something? So it doesn't make you immune to con damage (so technically, you can hellfire away), but it just so happens to reduce the hellfire penalty to 0 con damage. To which many DMs say "you were immune to that use, so you get no benefit".

[Boci]

Seems like this combo would just make your DM turn every story arc into an undead hunt.

I don't play with jerk DMs.

It's also rather weak to Evasion. Expect groups of assassins to be sent after the PCs... a lot. High reflex save + evasion > take no damage > no need to make three thunder saves.

That's why you need to have at least 1 orb spell.

As a DM, I am a strong advocate for enforcing the sacrifice payments of spells or abilities. If you can't pay, you don't get to use the benefit. If you are immune to the effect and still want to use the ability/spell, we come up with an payment that is equal in its drawback.

No strongheart vests or bindings to take away your CON damage from hellfire warlock. No celerity shinanigans or bypassing the daze effects from born of three thunders.

If you play differently, glad you are having fun.

I can understand this aproach, but it assumes that,
a. WotC knows how to balance things, which they do not always. Most posters agree for example that dodging the cost for hell fire is not broken, but few will say so for celerity.
b. Characters have absolutly no idea about what price they pay. Personally I feel the they would be able know, and thus could research a method to become immune.

[Ganurath]

It's also rather weak to Evasion. Expect groups of assassins to be sent after the PCs... a lot. High reflex save + evasion > take no damage > no need to make three thunder saves.

Deafening is a Fortitude save, and if you combine it with Explosive Spell thanks to Arcane Thesis you're forcing multiple Reflex saves per casting. By sheer attrition, there'll be a low roll on a Reflex save eventually. Even if not, the deafening would rob the stealthy characters of their ability to coordinate with one another and be aware of one another. Plus, they can't hear themselves very well either, so that's arguably a Move Silently penalty.

[Eldonauran]

Strongheart vests heal the con damage.

As far as I am aware, strongheart vest prevents con damage (or reduces it by 2). I see no mention of healing that damage. I am away from my books right now, so if I am wrong, please provide quoted source.

If one was to say its instantly healed as part of the effect of the vest, I would argue that the damage never occured and the price not paid. But this is beside the point. The sacrifice must have some sort of noticable effect on the character (and I consider loss of HP for a good portion of a battle due to CON loss, a noticable effect) or they don't get to use the ability. If a cleric wants to spend 3 round (lesser restoration or restoration w/ 100gp extra) or 10 minutes to take care of that damage for you, I consider it a fair price since it uses part of the WBL or daily resources to counteract.

As for the binding, I'll re-address that at the table.

I can understand this aproach, but it assumes that,
a. WotC knows how to balance things, which they do not always. Most posters agree for example that dodging the cost for hell fire is not broken, but few will say so for celerity.
b. Characters have absolutly no idea about what price they pay. Personally I feel the they would be able know, and thus could research a method to become immune.

A) I agree but my judgement isn't based on purely mechanics. You make a deal with something to gain power at a cost. If you are able to wiggle out of making that payment, that 'something' gets wise and refuses to provide that power until payment is made. Its simple. You don't pay, you don't get want you bargained for.

B) See A. Should that character have made the deal, they will know (at least in my games) that if you don't pay, the 'something-providing-that-power' won't provide the goods. You can still get around the payment, using other resources, but you won't get away without paying the initial cost.

[jiriku]

+1 vote for cheese. Most any effect that removes the cost of power is cheese. That's why people cry boo at the incantatrix, the dweomerkeeper, the cheater of mystra, and their ilk. Now, classes and effects like those are welcome at my table, and as the DM I relish the challenge of providing adventures for parties that use those options. But my enjoyment of the cheese doesn't change the fact that it is cheese.

[absolmorph]

+1 vote for cheese. Most any effect that removes the cost of power is cheese. That's why people cry boo at the incantatrix, the dweomerkeeper, the cheater of mystra, and their ilk. Now, classes and effects like those are welcome at my table, and as the DM I relish the challenge of providing adventures for parties that use those options. But my enjoyment of the cheese doesn't change the fact that it is cheese.

This is my stance, too. I would let my players use a lot of the cheesier builds on here, so long as they don't step on other people's toes.
This is a bit cheesy, though.