Puppeteer Spell - Bard save or die?

[Tyger]

I asked about this a while ago, but it went unanswered.

Why don't I hear more about this spell? Its Bard 3, from the Spell Compendium. Essentially, Will Save or the target has to mimic the bard's actions. You can force the target to take suicidal actions, but it gives them another Will save. If they make the save, they fall comatose and helpless for 1d4 rounds.

Yup, a bardic save or die spell. Why doesn't this one get more notice? My bard has used it exactly twice, and on both instances, it directly lead to the death of the target. Nothing says BOOYAH! like making the opponent lie down with their arms crossed on their chest, fingers entwined together and eyes closed.

[Caphi]

Probably has something to do with the Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] tags.

[Keshay]

I asked about this a while ago, but it went unanswered.

Why don't I hear more about this spell? Its Bard 3, from the Spell Compendium. Essentially, Will Save or the target has to mimic the bard's actions. You can force the target to take suicidal actions, but it gives them another Will save. If they make the save, they fall comatose and helpless for 1d4 rounds.

Yup, a bardic save or die spell. Why doesn't this one get more notice? My bard has used it exactly twice, and on both instances, it directly lead to the death of the target. Nothing says BOOYAH! like making the opponent lie down with their arms crossed on their chest, fingers entwined together and eyes closed.

Maybe because your character would also have to lie down on the ground with your arms crossed and eyes closed in order to get your opponent to perform that action.

Bards already get Cause Fear, Charm Person, Sleep, Grease, Blind/Deafness, Hold Person, Scare, Suggestion, Fear and Charm Monster. If you can't make use of those as a save or die/suck spells, I suppose you could cast the one that requires you to pantomime whatever it is you want the target to do.

But yes, it is one of many save or die/suck spell Bards have. That is likely why it gets so little specific attention.

[Tyger]

Probably has something to do with the Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] tags.

True, no good against a few opponents (constructs and undead come to mind).

Maybe because your character would also have to lie down on the ground with your arms crossed and eyes closed in order to get your opponent to perform that action.

Yup, which does kinda suck, but against most foes the "laying down and crossing your arms" is good enough, and then you can still sing and/or cast.

Not to mention, while I am taking my mini-nap, my allies and wartrained riding dog are all beating the heck out of the target, while benefiting from my 5d6 fire damage Dragonfire Inspiration. I consider that a pretty decent contribution to the fight. :) Not the most stylish though, so I'll have to work on that.

Bards already get Cause Fear, Charm Person, Sleep, Grease, Blind/Deafness, Hold Person, Scare, Suggestion, Fear and Charm Monster. If you can't make use of those as a save or die/suck spells, I suppose you could cast the one that requires you to pantomime whatever it is you want the target to do.

Those are pretty good, though oddly only one of them appears on my current spell list. Oddly enough its: Inspirational Boost, Improvisation, Expeditious Retreat (which'll likely be trained out fast), Charm Person, Glitterdust, Whirling Blade (handy with the aforementioned Dragonfire Inspiration), Mirror Image, Detect Thoughts, Haste, Glibness and Puppeteer.

But yes, it is one of many save or die/suck spell Bards have. That is likely why it gets so little specific attention.

Most of the above are decent suck spells, but few result in such complete suckiness to the point of death. Sleep loses usefulness past level 4-5, Suggestion is great, but I'll stick with the bardic music version (DC is higher, though harder to set up), Hold Person / Monster they get a new save each round, the Scare/Cause Fear combo is nice, but again, no use above 6HD monsters so use tapers off around level 6, Fear is sweet indeed. Love that spell, and really should find a way to incorporate it.

The thing that seems, to me, different about Puppeteer is that it stays useful for the life of the caster (level 1-20). Sure, eventually some folks have Mind Blank, and undead / constructs are immune to it, but they are immune to most of the other bard save or suck/die spells too, so its no loss there. Just seems to be a horribly undervalued spell to me.

[Irreverent Fool]

Bards don't get 3rd-level spells until 7th level. By the time the party is 7th level, the bard's casting is probably overshadowed by everyone else's.

Even the fighter's.

obnoxious
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[Lin Bayaseda]

- The Bard gets this spell on level 7. For reference, it's the same level a Wizard gets Phantasmal Killer. And a Cleric gets Hold Person four levels earlier.
- In order to neutralize a target, the Bard also has to neutralize himself. Sure, his ally must slash the target's throat, but the target's ally could slash the Bard's throat as well, at the same time, no?

All in all, a useful spell, but only looks great when compared to the other fluff Bards usually get.

[Forever Curious]

Bards don't get 3rd-level spells until 7th level. By the time the party is 7th level, the bard's casting is probably overshadowed by everyone else's.

Even the fighter's.

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I lol'd.

[Irreverent Fool]

I think it's generally a cool spell and I would consider taking it if I were playing a 7th-level bard. Is it worth taking over other spells that the bard could learn at that level though? I don't know. I've never played a bard that long (though thanks to this thread and the motivational poster thread I think my next character just might be one).

It'd definitely be great to give to an enemy bard (or artificer), just for the "I am the puppeteer!" trope. I just don't know if, given its limitations, it is truly worth the investment of one of the bard's precious spells known.

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[tbarrie]

- The Bard gets this spell on level 7. For reference, it's the same level a Wizard gets Phantasmal Killer. And a Cleric gets Hold Person four levels earlier.

The Bard him- or herself gets Hold Person three levels earlier. But as pointed out earlier in this thread, this spell is considerably more powerful than Hold Person - they only get one, maybe two saves, as opposed to one every round.

In order to neutralize a target, the Bard also has to neutralize himself.

Unless, as the original poster pointed out, they're casting spells or using bardic music. Which bards sometimes do.

All in all, a useful spell, but only looks great when compared to the other fluff Bards usually get.

I agree with Keshay that the situation is the exact opposite. Bards have so many good save-or-lose spells that one more doesn't get much specific attention.

[Telonius]

I suppose that a Bard could have a "stage blade" in a scabbard for just such a spell. The target would get another will save, but you could pretend to slit your own throat with the fake knife without actually offing yourself.

[TheMadLinguist]

I suppose that a Bard could have a "stage blade" in a scabbard for just such a spell. The target would get another will save, but you could pretend to slit your own throat with the fake knife without actually offing yourself.

Keep a weapon in an unusual place, then throw it at them. They can't dodge, and will just mime your "throwing a weapon" without actually throwing anything.

[Jothki]

Wouldn't the bard's normal combat actions result in the target doing things that have nothing whatsoever to do with defending itself against the attacks that it's actually facing?

[Haven]

I suppose that a Bard could have a "stage blade" in a scabbard for just such a spell. The target would get another will save, but you could pretend to slit your own throat with the fake knife without actually offing yourself.

Or even simpler than that--put your weapon in your other hand, and then pantomime slitting your throat with your empty fist.

[Boci]

Or rake your nails across your neck. Sucks to have natural weapons.

[Optimystik]

Or even simpler than that--put your weapon in your other hand, and then pantomime slitting your throat with your empty fist.

Wouldn't you have to do that before the spell is cast? Thus taking penalties to attack unless you're a southpaw. Otherwise, they will switch hands too and you're back at square one.

[MonarchAnarch]

Or if you have a rapier and the target has a greatsword/axe..the sword/axe blade will hit their throat befor your rapier/foil touches yours. Just choose the target with a bit of thought.