What do you think of when you hear "Dragon"?

[krossbow]

As the topic states, what is it, in your mind, that epitomizes dragons?

One thing my group dislikes somewhat about D&D dragons is that they rely so much on their spellcasting; Dragon Fighting in ways that we view as "draconic" (relying on Breath attacks, melee, and flight, being all about being up close and personal and roasting things with a devastating Breath weapon, possibly with multiple uses for their breath) are essentially nerfing themselves; Effective dragons in D&D function almost like Heavy Duty tank sorcerers, with a heavy emphasis on spells over brawn.

However, i know that Mileage varies, so i'm asking:

Does a dragon to you Scream out an accomplished master of arcane arts, who uses this to Manipulate and control the land?

Does a dragon to you scream out a Vicious brute, who uses his natural strength, flight and breath to Lay waste to those that oppose him?

Does a dragon Scream to you as being almost a Living Aircraft, using flight and range to defeat its foes, ala how the Dragon in Beowulf (movie) fought?


What abilities are most iconic to dragons in your mind?

[Roland St. Jude]

Two things:

1. A now-deceased magazine that was an integral part of gaming across the decades.
2. This classic.

But to answer your question, dragons to me are immensely powerful and of unknown power and unpredictable temperment. Sometimes they arrogantly just claw, crush, and breathe fire. Sometimes they cast spells to bedevil and demoralizes. Sure, there are trends among dragons of similar colors, but even if players have heard those generalizations, they'd be foolish to count on them.

[gibbo88]

When I think of a dragon's tactics I generally think of a couple of strafing runs to clear out some of the weaker opponents and then wading into melee to take out any remaining opposition. But then when I think of Dragons they generally can't cast spells like those in DnD can. If I added that, maybe a bit of buffing before going into the fight, but I don't imagine them standing in the middle of a fight and casting ray spells or anything like that.

[Starbuck_II]

Does a dragon to you scream out a Vicious brute, who uses his natural strength, flight and breath to Lay waste to those that oppose him?

Does a dragon Scream to you as being almost a Living Aircraft, using flight and range to defeat its foes, ala how the Dragon in Beowulf (movie) fought?


What abilities are most iconic to dragons in your mind?

These two: well not an aircraft as they aren't best flyers, but close.

I mean, the supernaturals/spell-likes that the dragon gets fit like destroy water, and make illusions fit the theme, but not the spellcasting.
That seems tacked on to make them stronger.

[Asheram]

When I think of dragon I tend to forget that they can even use magic. What I see in my mind when I think of a dragon is a giant winged, highly intelligent, reptilian that can breathe fire.

For dragon tactics, I'd say that they're like any other giant monster, using their breathweapon to create panic and take care of the ones that it deems important first, using its magic as a backup should something go wrong.

[Shalist]

This definitely bears mentioning:

"My Dragon"

Mind you, there are a lot of different distinct personalities among the draconic types--ranging from aloof golds, power-trippy reds, prankster coppers, and so on. Its actually kinda a pet peeve of mine how shallow and homogeneous dragons are in most fantasy novels, never displaying any intelligence or personality, and doing little beyond sleeping on a hoard while waiting for adventurers to slay them. And in actual play, they're not even that much--just another sack of treasure and HP.

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Mugshots of the 10 classic wyrms from when they're a bit older:

Black Blue
Green
Red White
Brass Bronze
Copper
Gold Silver

That being said...I like to think of dragons as a force of nature. Awesome power on all fronts, cunning and wisdom beyond what most mortals are capable, and absolutely unstoppable in their given territory.

Part of the reason they rely more on sorcery in 3.5 is, imho, because magic is overpowered in 3.5, such that the only way to compete with magic, is more magic, regardless of how powerful you'd be otherwise, so that does spoil the image a bit.

[BobVosh]

One thing I have always wondered about dragons is why they don't get swallow whole. Anyway for dragons I always had the big strong brute, that gains incredible magic and size when older. The younger ones rely on physical prowess where the elder ones can rip you apart in several ways.

[krossbow]

Part of the reason they rely more on sorcery in 3.5 is, imho, because magic is overpowered in 3.5, such that the only way to compete with magic, is more magic, regardless of how powerful you'd be otherwise, so that does spoil the image a bit.

Well, its built into the fluff a bit as well; the inherent explanation for sorcerers is draconic blood, implying dragons to be a highly sorcerous group of beings.

[Optimystik]

I consider them to be overgrown, narrow-minded and arrogant lizards that cloak their gluttony, greed and vanity behind a veneer of culture and intellect. They're more than willing to discard those higher pursuits when their stomachs or sadism get the better of them.

They all remind me of Hannibal Lecter, even the so-called "good" ones - manners and refinement struggling and failing to hold in base and ravenous urges.

I much prefer outsiders - say what you like about fiends, at least you know where you stand with them. Undead too.

[lsfreak]

For me, dragons tend to be extremely intelligent, unaligned beings. Some may be good, some may be bad. None of this color-coded nonsense; I tend to ignore the metallic dragons outright. Capable of magic, and smart, but they also know their power, and tend to prefer just tearing things to shreds. In addition, they tend to not really care about the goings-on in the world, rather looking at the grander scheme of things. People are concerned about things like wars and conquests; such small-scale things tempt only the lowliest of dragons.

Granted, my view of dragons may have been tainted by my primary pre-D&D exposure to them being the Aspects from Warcraft, and Trag'Oul from Diablo.

[Zeta Kai]

1. It's a big lizard.
2. It breathes fire.
3. It terrorizes locals.
4. It hordes gold.
5. It gets killed by a hero.

Everything else is a houserule.

[The Tygre]

1.) The closest thing to gods on the material plane.

2.) The best magazine I ever subscribed to period.

3.) My childhood.

[Asbestos]

Two things:

1. A now-deceased magazine that was an integral part of gaming across the decades.

It still exists, though only in an online format and a 1/year hard copy compilation.

[Tinydwarfman]

Dragons do not use magic, they are magic. Magic runs through their blood, and empowers them. They may create magical effects, but they are never structured. They simply will something to happen, it does. Their magic is internal though, and far more often than not, their use of magic will be to facilitate the use of their claws or other physical means to rip people to shreds.

In rules terms, I feel draconic magic cannot be represented well in D&D, as the magic system is too structured. They should be using some kind of word/noun system, like syntactic magic, or something akin to the Ars Magica system.

[OracleofWuffing]

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Also, I think of that one time a Wyvern and a series of unfortunate rolls left a sorceror at about nine maximum HP. Sure, it's not a standard dragon strategy, but that's the kind of situation a dragon would drag you in on, and laugh.

[Siosilvar]

Does a dragon to you Scream out an accomplished master of arcane arts, who uses this to Manipulate and control the land?

Does a dragon to you scream out a Vicious brute, who uses his natural strength, flight and breath to Lay waste to those that oppose him?

Does a dragon Scream to you as being almost a Living Aircraft, using flight and range to defeat its foes, ala how the Dragon in Beowulf (movie) fought?

#1: Not really the arcane arts so much as being the embodiment of raw arcane energy.

#2 and 3: Dragons are the bombers of the campaign world. Relatively easy to outmaneuver, but capable of blowing up whatever they want to.

[Eldariel]

Dragon screams to me "perfection"; a mighty, firebreathing (yeah, the only breath weapon is fire), magic-incarnate creature of unmeasurable cunning and insight, with presence so persuasive that lesser creatures cower at its very existence (and yes, just about everything short of gods and elder outsiders is "lesser").

In combat, if it actually chooses to engage itself (and believe you me, the battles will always happen on its terms), it wields an immaculate combination of fire, magic and might able to take on a dozen creatures of broadly equivalent power by virtue of the combination of its abilities giving it the abilities of a group of lesser creatures.

[Godskook]

For good dragons: Ever see Dragonheart? That!

[cattoy]

depends entirely on context.

Based on game system and who's running it, it usually boils down to Fight, Run or Talk.

[Swooper]

I'd just like to throw in the fact that magic-less dragons exist in D&D - look at the Xorvintaal template in MM5. It's pretty nifty.

[Forever Curious]

Not this...

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[ApeofLight]

Dragon to me brings several things. First off there usually flying creatures, or at least have wings. There are some ground dragons but there rare among dragons. Two, lizard like, end of story. Three, breath weapon of some sort. Four, half are just somewhat sentient and the other half are naturally gifted to cast awesome spells.

[Optimystik]

In addition, they tend to not really care about the goings-on in the world, rather looking at the grander scheme of things. People are concerned about things like wars and conquests; such small-scale things tempt only the lowliest of dragons.

How I wish that were true, but D&D says otherwise. Some truly "lofty" examples from Draconomicon:

- Iyriddelmirev, Very Old Black - spends her days running a gang of human thieves in the sewer of a city.

- Lothaenorixius, Great Wyrm Blue - after an unsuccessful attempt on his life by some adventurers, he took over the salt mine belonging to the merchants that hired them, and now runs it himself. He's now a glorified accountant/slaver, trying to get the maximum monetary output from his mine with the minimum amount of investment, using undead workers where he can but needing some human employees, both for their greater speed and to bring the salt to market for sale.

- Drumduruhullwix, Very Old Copper - "Puns are his meat and drink"; "most creatures just give up on talking to him after a matter of minutes, which leaves him in fits of laughter over what he considers success."

Sheeredni-vaktar, Wyrm Gold - She has no tolerance for "poor manners, bad grooming, offensive language, alcohol use, or even sexual promiscuity." She does not take issue with violence, however, and is quick to react violently to those who break the taboos above, even "just" swatting them with her tail for nonlethal damage and scolding them.

...and so on. Very dignified creatures, concerned with only the highest pursuits, indeed.

Granted, my view of dragons may have been tainted by my primary pre-D&D exposure to them being the Aspects from Warcraft, and Trag'Oul from Diablo.

Aren't Warcraft's Flights color-coded too? More by function than alignment (blues control magic, greens dreaming, bronze time etc.), but there is a little morality there too (the Black Dragonflight is all evil for instance.)

[krossbow]

I have to admit, When it comes to dragons, magic doesn't really enter into how I've ever thought of them. A dragon's main trump card has always been its breath attack, which is complimented by the ability to fly and strafe things.

Just "embodiment of magic" doesn't really jive with what is essentially a large lizard; I'd always pictured embodiments of energy/magic to look more akin to something like a Starcraft archon or an angel.

I figure, if its a being of pure energy, why would it be embodied in so much flesh and blood?


^Also, I love the hannibal lecture example listed above. It seems to fit with alot of their plans, and it seems somewhat like how smaug acted in the hobbit-- Appearing cordial but really caring about nothing but base desires and greed.

Aren't Warcraft's Flights color-coded too? More by function than alignment (blues control magic, greens dreaming, bronze time etc.), but there is a little morality there too (the Black Dragonflight is all evil for instance.)

yeah. Wow dragons function more along the lines of energy types/affinities than alignment. The black dragonflight were actually pretty decent beings before their Primary leader/father was corrupted by eldritch abominations. That being said, WoW dragons function alot like forgotten realms gods, in that they're more or less servants of a greater set of entities (Akin to how Gods in forgotten realms serve Ao), and have a tendency to get pretty coldblooded wherein their portfolio is concerned.

[Roland St. Jude]

It still exists, though only in an online format and a 1/year hard copy compilation.

Rubbish. By which I mean, it's rubbish, not that I disbelieve you.

[Asbestos]

Rubbish. By which I mean, it's rubbish, not that I disbelieve you.

In that case its been rubbish for quite a while, I find the current product an improvement over the most recent dead tree examples.


As for what I think of when I think 'Dragon', I generally think an extremely powerful and fearsome being but one that is as prone, if not more so, to basic human flaws as people. For example greed, pride, vanity, etc.

[The Cat Goddess]

Smaug, and even more-so, Glaurung.

[lsfreak]

How I wish that were true, but D&D says otherwise.

Yea, I tend to ignore that. It doesn't make sense to me. While it's not official D&D canon, it's what I think of when I hear dragon.

Aren't Warcraft's Flights color-coded too? More by function than alignment (blues control magic, greens dreaming, bronze time etc.), but there is a little morality there too (the Black Dragonflight is all evil for instance.)

They match their matriarch/patriarch. While I don't know the actual alignments of them, it tends to be something like red is life/lawful good, green is dreams/nature/chaotic good, blue is magic/chaotic neutral, bronze is time/lawful neutral, and black is earth/destruction/chaotic evil. WC dragons, from what I remember though (been a while since I was up to the lore), are much less set-in-stone than D&D dragons, with most of them actually leaning towards True Neutral, Beyond Alignment, and/or ****ing Insane. The single major exception is Black Dragonflight, thanks to Netharion's corruption/betrayal.

[The Tygre]

In that case its been rubbish for quite a while, I find the current product an improvement over the most recent dead tree examples.

The last 'dead tree', as you whipper-snappers like to call them, was back in 2007. Kobold Quarterly carries that torch now, thank you very much. I do not question the validity of Wizards' Dragon. On the contrary, I love some of the content they deliver, and I'm thankful that there's a yearly annual for those of us who prefer our pen and ink ways. But unless I can touch it, unless I can feel it, hear its pages flipping, smell it, go so far as to taste it if I want to, it isn't Dragon magazine. It's just Dragon. Now get off to your moon-pies and penny-whistles.

[Irreverent Fool]

Dragon Magazine ceased to exist when it ceased to be a magazine. Give me paper in my hands, physical things I may collect and let stand as testament to my nerditude. (And things I can spread over an actual desktop and look over without having to switch between windows.)

I like the 3.5 Xorvintaal idea presented in MM5 and mentioned above. It paints dragons as creatures who have minds and goals that are all but unfathomable to the mortal races. They are seen as creatures that cover their base desires and pride with thin social veneers, but that is only because the pursuit of those desires is the only thing with which the mortals can identify.

I think of some great beast, so rarely seen as to be mythical to the most recent generations, manipulating kingdoms, nations, continents as nothing more than pawns. The confirmed sighting of one dragon sends waves of fear rippling through every civilization. When one rises from its lair to interact with the lesser world, empires fall to ruin, secrets are lost, and dark ages begin.

Sadly, it rarely works out like that in D&D. Still, any time one mentions 'dragon' around my players, they go a little pale.

obnoxious
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