[3.5] Quick, Yes/No Question Involving the Leadership Tree

[balistafreak]

I've often been (mockingly) accused of wanting to play Final Fantasy, not D&D, by my friends. All of my character builds try to involve cohorts, familiars, psicrystals, or other what-have-you.

Out of (hilarious) spite, I'm attempting to try exactly that now, completely within RAW. Without resorting to Leadership trees (cohort takes leadership ----> cohort takes leadership ----> cohort takes leadership etc.) is there a way for a single character to acquire two (or more!) humanoid Cohorts ala Leadership beneath ECL 10? (Above ECL 10, a party literally becomes unmanageable by a single person.)

Thrallherd requires too high an ECL to get the job done, requiring the Capstone to get two cohorts. Also, these Cohorts are not affectable by Close Cohort to put their max level at leader's level - 1, which considerably increases a Cohort's value.

Without any digressing into the stupidity of Leadership or its intended uses, or any other gaming debate, is there a class or feat that allows access to two or more humanoid cohorts that is achievable beneath ECL 10?

The intention is to make a "party" that covers all the (major) companion bases I can think of right now. Three characters allows a Cerebremancer, Paladin, and Druid. The Cerebremancer takes a Psicrystal and Familiar, the Paladin a mount, and the Druid an animal companion AND an animal cohort (through Wild Cohort). Have I missed any other significant sources of companionship?

[HunterOfJello]

Item Familiar can think, but not attack (that i remember)
Weapon Familiars

Several types of Homonculi can be created by Artificers
Constructs can be created by any spellcasting class with the right spells

a few PrCs give special companions

Blackguards has their
Holy Liberators can summon a celestial companion
Shadow Dancers have undead shadows that help them

[Foryn Gilnith]

The Mentor feat can get you a cohort, sort of, but it will be at your level-4 (level-5 if you selected it as a level 6 feat)

[Lysander]

Couldn't your cohort also take the Leadership feat and have a cohort themselves? Technically it would be loyal to them rather than you, but you'd still have two cohorts tagging along with you.

: nvm, I'm an idiot who didn't read your post clearly enough

[EvilJoe15]

Do you have Ultimate Feats? Sometimes known as the book of Ultimate Brokenness.
There is a feat in it that gets you two more cohorts, on at -2, and another at -4. And the best part of it is that it stacks with it's self.

[HunterOfJello]

Dragon Cohort - requires lvl 9 and Language (Draconic)
Undead Leadership - get an undead cohort, but it lowers the level of attracting living followers by 4


There are also several types of undead that create their own minions, of course. And the Dread Necromancer class usually runs around with an undead army at their command.

[IonDragon]

While not humanoid, there is also Efigy Master (probably spelled wrong) from CMage. However I'm AFB right now so I can't give specifics on the class abilities. But IIRC the class revolves around allowing you to create automatons to protect/serve you.

And of course there is the Wild Cohort Feat and you could play a Druid for another Animal Companion, just to jack up your numbers.

[Greenish]

Psychic class: Take Psicrystal Affinity, then at level 6, take Leadership and have your Psicrystal also take Leadership. Psicrystal is a fragment of your personality, so now you have two cohorts.

[Edit]: Thrallherd's first thrall is automatically character level -1, so they don't even need the Close Cohort feat.

[Lysander]

You can also just pay a hireling to accompany you...might be expensive if they're powerful enough to be useful. Or convince an npc to join you with the diplomacy skill if you have a common goal. Of course these will deduct from your overall xp probably.

Not humanoid but:

You can also hire an outsider with a planar ally spell. If you're doing something the outsider strongly supports they can reduce or waive the payment, even for long term missions.

Awakened animals are implied to serve the druid that casts the spell, and there's no limit on those. You could have a crowd of intelligent dire bears travel with you.

[balistafreak]

I considered Mentor, then decided that leader level - 4 was pointless for most adventures.

Source for Dragon Cohort?

Do you have Ultimate Feats? Sometimes known as the book of Ultimate Brokenness.
There is a feat in it that gets you two more cohorts, on at -2, and another at -4. And the best part of it is that it stacks with it's self.

Tell me this is sarcasm.

*google-fu*

... it's 3rd party. I can see where it got the name "Ultimate Brokenness" without even having to open it.

Greenish

Eh? Psicrystals can acquire feats? Someone explain this in more detail, because this seems to be exactly what I'm looking for.

[Flickerdart]

You can also use Planar Binding, with numerous precautions (magic circles turned inward, CHA-powering/buffing spells) making sure that you eke out nothing less that total servitude for the spell's duration.

@^: Psicrystals gain HD as their owner levels up. Some argue that this allows them to gain feats.

[Greenish]

Greenish

Eh? Psicrystals can acquire feats? Someone explain this in more detail, because this seems to be exactly what I'm looking for.

Check out the monster entry. Hit dice : same as owner. It's a bit cheesy, but yeah.

[Edit]: Psicrystals can have feats: they already come with one. As default, creatures gain feats with hitdice increase. The argument for psicrystals having feats has a solid base in RAW, and isn't hugely powerful barring already "broken" feats such as leadership (or shared metamorphosis shenanigans, but the feats are rather tangential there).

[EvilJoe15]

Trust me U. Feats is a great book, if it's allowed. And that feat isn't even the worst. Lasting spell makes Persist look like Widen. I took it and my spell durations range from 310 years to 3,100 years.

[HunterOfJello]

Source for Dragon Cohort?

Draconomicon pg 139

[IonDragon]

Check out the monster entry. Hit dice : same as owner. It's a bit cheesy, but yeah.

Some do this with Familiars as well as Animal Companions.

[balistafreak]

Can someone identify the line that says Monster HD -----> feat progression? I'm doing searches of the SRD right now, to no avail.

Also, if we're going to argue this, how about giving the Psicrystal flaws? I can think of Meagre Fortitude and Pathetic (probably Charisma), for starters.

... that's probably crossing the line there.

@EvilJoe: And by great, you mean stupidly broken, right? I'm DM more often than I play, and this gives me greater appreciation of how irritating some things are.

A party might be irritating to other players when you take a bit longer to complete your "turn" but it doesn't particularly break the DM as long as each of those characters stays at a low enough tier (intentionally). But believe me when I say that knowing 3rd party material there's going to be some incredibly stupid things... like spells lasting 3100 years.

I would never make a character I would not sit across from. This is good player advice.

[Flickerdart]

Can someone identify the line that says Monster HD -----> feat progression? I'm doing searches of the SRD right now, to no avail.

Also, if we're going to argue this, how about giving the Psicrystal flaws? I can think of Meagre Fortitude and Pathetic (probably Charisma), for starters.

... that's probably crossing the line there.

SRD: Improving Monsters

...Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases

A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. ...

...As its Hit Dice increase, a creature’s attack bonuses and saving throw modifiers might improve. It gains more feats and skills, depending on its type, as shown on Table: Creature Improvement by Type. ...

...All types have a number of feats equal to 1 + 1 per 3 Hit Dice....

It's not an obscure rule.

[Foryn Gilnith]

@ballistafreak:
I'd have to concur. Some degree of "Oh, it's powerful, therefore I want it and it's good" should be tolerated, partially as a convenient mode of expression and partially as an extension of the character's desire for power. But after a point, players just reach for too much (this is talking as somebody who practically never DMs).

[Greenish]

Some do this with Familiars as well as Animal Companions.

For familiars, it's a houserule, since normally they explicitly don't gain hitdice. For animal companions, they explicitly do gain new feats as they gain hitdice.

By RAW, there isn't anything stopping an animal companion from taking Leadership, as far as I can see.

[2xMachina]

Would be funny, having your Animal Companion ordering people around.

Or maybe just a bunch of other animals lol.

Fleshraker leadership! More Fleshrakers.

[balistafreak]

It's not an obscure rule.

Anything is obscure if your Spot check is low enough. I even had a Masterwork tool (Google) for it, and still failed!

Thank you, sir.

Hmmm. So I make a Cerebremancer, starting Ardent2/Wizard1, using Precocious Apprentice and Practiced Manifester to finish off the preqs. 4 levels of Cerebremancer later, he's got 7 HD. His Psicrystal has 6 HD, while his familiar has... 7 HD as well, because it's based on character level, not )arcane caster) level?

For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Or 1 HD per level, because:

It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but it is treated as a magical beast instead of an animal for the purpose of any effect that depends on its type.

Hmmmmm.

Well, assuming I can find a way to make this work, then I have the Cerebremancer, Psicrystal, and Familiar all take Leadership.

3 cohorts. Take a Paladin for a Mount, take a Druid for Animal Companion (and Animal Cohort as well, because chances are he'll be the only one with Handle Animal as a skill)... and one more character? Maybe an Incarnate with a Soulspark Familiar. Heck, then I'll have all the (major) magic bases covered: Arcane and divine magic, psionics, and Incarnum! (Yes, I know there's Binding, too, but that system's even denser than Incarnum, and that's saying a lot. And if you suggest Truenamer you shall be punched without mercy. )

@Greenish's Ninja post:

Blast. Well, then I can just drop that third cohort then.

Letting an animal companion take Leadership though sounds interesting. It's (supposedly) intelligent, after all...

Conclusion: this exercise is ridiculous.

[Greenish]

Hmmm. So I make a Cerebremancer, starting Ardent2/Wizard1, using Precocious Apprentice and Practiced Manifester to finish off the preqs. 4 levels of Cerebremancer later, he's got 7 HD. His Psicrystal has 6 HD, while his familiar has... 7 HD as well, because it's based on character level, not )arcane caster) level?

By SRD: "A psicrystal’s characteristics depend on its master. Its Hit Dice are equal to its master’s Hit Dice (counting only levels in psion or wilder), its hit points are equal to half its master’s, and its saving throw bonuses are the same as its master’s."

That's probably been changed since, and ought to be a subject of houseruling anyway.

Letting an animal companion take Leadership though sounds interesting. It's (supposedly) intelligent, after all...

Having an Intelligence score is not a prerequisite for taking Leadership feat (which explains a lot, IRL).

Conclusion: this exercise is ridiculous.

This is an exercise in ridiculous, yes. Exercise is good for you.

[Tiki Snakes]

There's also Wild Cohort.
Depending on level of feat control and comfortable cheese, at a certain point you can have an infinate army of (for example) cr3 wolves. (Though given that you'd only directly control one or two of them, you'd have to be careful with your Alpha wolves, or you'd, well. Come to a bad end.

It may interfere with your leadership score, however.

[Last Laugh]

For familiars, it's a houserule, since normally they explicitly don't gain hitdice. For animal companions, they explicitly do gain new feats as they gain hitdice.

By RAW, there isn't anything stopping an animal companion from taking Leadership, as far as I can see.

As long as you count RHD as character levels your Companion can take leadership.
I'm not sure that it does work RAW.

There are some PRCs that add to familiars.
Arcane Heirophant (RoTW). Animal companion also gains the abilities of familiar.

Sandworm Dragoon (Sand storm). Gives an absurdly powerful mount that stacks w/ paladin mount. (Ask your dm to let it work w/ blackguard instead)

Wild Plains Outrider (Cadv). Levels stack w/ pally/Ranger/Druid. Gives you Full mounted attack that may be used with ranged weapons. Increases mounts speed, defenses. Mount can sneak as well as you.
Notable because it does all of this in 3 levels and with full BAB

Halfling Outrider (CW) Levels stack with Druid AND paladin AND ranger for determining the mounts abilities.

Blackguard (DMG) gives you a paladins mount based on Character level, not class level.

Beast Heart Adept (Dung) Gives you up to 4 Monstrous Companions. A nice list of Magical beasts to choose from. Has full BAB. Has very nice abilities focused on teamwork. (can take AoO against anything your monster strikes, at 10thish level EVERYone in your party can take an AoO when your monster strikes.

Feats:
Devoted Tracker (Cadv) You may designate your AC as your special mount.

[IonDragon]

Almost forgot: Beastmaster (forgot the book ) lets you get more Animal Companions, at a depressingly low level as worded. You could ask your GM for a boost, but the wording is "as a Druid of Beastmaster level -3" at 4th level. If your GM doesn't hate you yet, get him to rule it as "effective Druid level -3" instead. Level 1 of Beastmaster gives you effective Druid level +3 for purposes of Animal Companion (Yes it sounds epic, but it's really not that powerful).

[Last Laugh]

Almost forgot: Beastmaster (forgot the book ) lets you get more Animal Companions, at a depressingly low level as worded. You could ask your GM for a boost, but the wording is "as a Druid of Beastmaster level -3" at 4th level. If your GM doesn't hate you yet, get him to rule it as "effective Druid level -3" instead. Level 1 of Beastmaster gives you effective Druid level +3 for purposes of Animal Companion (Yes it sounds epic, but it's really not that powerful).

Beastmaster (Cadv) gains an animal companion at Druid level + Beast master level + 3. (strongest straight up AC I've seen.) it can also exceed your CLVL.
buut you should only ever ever ever use it to get a companion and qualify for devoted tracker. The second, third and fourth animal companions are at
Beastmaster level-3, Beastmaster level -6, Beastmaster level -9