level 20 Wizard vs. THE EMPRAH.

[krossbow]

Who wins.

[Ravingdork]

Real winners wear beards, so the wizard prevails.

[Prodan]

It took 4 Chaos Gods possessing the second most powerful human to ever live to cripple the Emperor.

[Temotei]

It took 4 Chaos Gods possessing the second most powerful human to ever live to cripple the Emperor.

That's it? Wizard wins.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

At first I thought he was talking about Palpatine, which is probably a better question anyway.

I'd say the Wizard, given the Genesis to make a one-year-to-one-round plane and cast a year's worth of spells through a Gate before he can even act trick. Plus it would just be an Astral Projection of the Wizard anyway so he wouldn't even be at any personal risk, and he'd even be guaranteed a surprise round with Shapechange: Dire Tortoise.

[Yukitsu]

Depends on what point of Emperorness you're refering to. Prime, current, or Godhood.

In his prime, it's an even fight. Emperor is described as an omega level psycher, which is the tier required to blow up a planet by looking at it, so an epic level psion or there abouts. Also much more powerful on a physical level with the augmented stats. Despite the massive boost in toughness, levels, stats and manifester level over the wizard, still only even, as the wizard has far better tricks, assuming he can make one stick.

Current, he's a cripple in a fancy chair. Wizard by far.

In theory, his essence has turned into a chaos god of sorts which will be reborn in a star child. Assuming D&D style of god, which they basically are, the Emperor wins, because he can emulate ninth levels on top of all of his other abilities.

[JaronK]

The emperor is currently pretty much dead, and exists only as a psychic shiny light. The Wizard can make alternate realities for fun. This isn't a contest.

JaronK

[Deth Muncher]

Yeah. If the Wiz can Teleport into the Golden Throneroom, Quickened Disintegrate the Golden Throne...yeah. Win.

[Yukitsu]

Yeah. If the Wiz can Teleport into the Golden Throneroom, Quickened Disintegrate the Golden Throne...yeah. Win.

Might be a touch harder if he's actually in the golden throne and room. Security there is pretty top notch, even for a wizard. Not saying he couldn't do it, but I am saying there's a reason no chaos warrior in termy armour goony has managed it.

[Greenish]

Not saying he couldn't do it, but I am saying there's a reason no chaos warrior in termy armour goony has managed it.

That reason was probably that they didn't have 20 levels in wizard.

[JaronK]

Yeah... Chaos Warriors can't cast Genesis. Flowing Time 10,000 + Timeless = Instant Win. The Wizard can just nuke the golden throne over and over until it cracks, with whatever he wants.

JaronK

[Yukitsu]

Yeah... Chaos Warriors can't cast Genesis. Flowing Time 10,000 + Timeless = Instant Win. The Wizard can just nuke the golden throne over and over until it cracks, with whatever he wants.

JaronK

Magnus the red probably can, as he's a roughly 15 000 year old sorcerer, not a psycher. And at the very least, each of the chaos gods created their own personal pocket dimensions, of which at least Tzeentch's has strange time traits based on his whim. In fact, the entire warp has odd flowing time traits, as does any realm in it. The crystal labyranth is the only one that I know of with directed time though. None of them have destroyed the Emperor, despite attempts against him. Keeping in mind instead of the astral, the Imperium has the warp which is the analogue. I do doubt a wizard using genesis would actually survive the warp. If the Emperor were instead in D&D land, I'd actually hedge a bet that a powerful psycher could cast genesis.

Lastly, nuke spells would work, but the security detail for the emperor is a full legion of psion/fighty somethings with an SOD weapon. While a wizard should be able to beat them given enough optimization, it's not exactly as easy as portrayed.

That reason was probably that they didn't have 20 levels in wizard.

Magnus the red is probably around a level 20 gish. Ahriman might be close, even though they blur psionics and magic a bit more in the case of ahriman.

[JaronK]

Magnus the red probably can, as he's a roughly 15 000 year old sorcerer, not a psycher.

But nothing in that universe allows you to do the kind of stuff D&D Wizards do.

And at the very least, each of the chaos gods created their own personal pocket dimensions, of which at least Tzeentch's has strange time traits based on his whim.

They all live on the same plane, the warp. They don't get pocket dimensions. The warp seems mutable, but it's got distinct attachment points to the material plane (such as the Cadian Gate). They can't just have pocket dimensions that do whatever they want and then open portals to where ever they want, as a D&D Wizard can. The point here is that the Emperor doesn't even get a chance to react, as the Wizard never has to leave his home plane where he has complete control.

JaronK

[BobVosh]

That reason was probably that they didn't have 20 levels in wizard.

1 casting of ironguard pretty much gets you into and through most anything they can do. Against everything else there is invisibility superior.

[jguy]

Well I doubt this would be a fight against the Emperor in his current state, a dude locked in a chair.

In his prime I say Emperor since he would just need to look at the Wizard and go all "Scanners" on him.

If you say that epic magic would destroy him, considering that "magic" in 40K world is just controlling the warp, the Emperor would already be able to do everything a wizard could, on his head, while sleeping.

Wouldn't a level 20 wizard get possessed by a demon by then though?

[Prodan]

There's the problem in crossovers between universes with vastly different magic systems; how do you establish what works and what doesn't?

[Meta]

Depends what universe the fight happens in.

If 40k, the wizard pops in tries, to cast a bunch of fancy spells and has no inkling he just became food for a warp entity.

If Dnd, the emperor pops in and the wizard pulls shenanigans on homecourt. The emperor dies but gets pulled into w/e Good-Neutral aligned god of justice, war, messiah rulers, you like. Learns all those same fancy tricks. Evens the field. But when the magic's turned off he's still a dragon.

[Greenish]

The emperor dies but gets pulled into w/e Good-Neutral aligned god of justice, war, messiah rulers, you like.

Neutral or good? In the grimdark future there is only chaotic evil and lawful evil!

[One Step Two]

See, the fundamental Problem is that there's no way to accurately describe the Emperor's power in either Pre-heresy, Current, or theoretical God-Hood.
Citing written material about the Emperor and his abilities is sketchy due to the, and I use this term generously might I add, fluid nature of official fiction.

So it comes down to setting.

In 40k Terms in the current setting, a level 20 wizard is a counted as (40k) Sorcerer.
Depeding on the laws of causality it may require tapping into the warp to use or prepare his spells. Assuming that it does and the Wizard would (or rather should) have used divinations to learn about the necessary wards and rituals, so he may cast freely without fear of Chaos, he may have several dark entities interested in him, but seeing as his intent is to kill the corpse god? They're gonna watch for now.
Locating the Emperor? Make a simple gather info check. Holy Terra or bust. Now as a level 20 wizard with a prodigious intelligence will do, he will take the time to do some research his for for maximum effect.
After a few divinations and some other skill checks the wizard is entitled to a DC 10 Intelligence check to realise the Emperor is doing a good enough job of dying slow, and possibly agonizing, death on his own. He defeats his opponent by casting Plane Shift and going home.

[Oslecamo]

In 40k Terms in the current setting, a level 20 wizard is a Sorcerer, one who knows nothing of protecting himself from the nature of the warp, and the moment he tries to cast a spell improperly for the setting, his soul is torn from his body and a Deamon inhabits it as a puppet. Assuming the wizard has foresight to learn about the necessary wards and rituals to allow him to cast freely without fear of Chaos, he now has several dark entities interested in him, but seeing as his intent is to kill the corpse god? They're gonna watch for now.

Nitpick, but that's assuming that vancian arcane casting uses the warp at all. Most 40K psykers draw power from the warp, but there's some that don't need it at all. Ork weirdboys channell the WWWAAAGHHH!!!(altough there's a chance the WWAAAAGGGHHH!!!! is so strong it blows the weirboy's head anyway), and nids channel the will of the hivemind, wich is so strong even the warp gets silent around an hive fleet.

[One Step Two]

Nitpick, but that's assuming that vancian arcane casting uses the warp at all. Most 40K psykers draw power from the warp, but there's some that don't need it at all. Ork weirdboys channell the WWWAAAGHHH!!!(altough there's a chance the WWAAAAGGGHHH!!!! is so strong it blows the weirboy's head anyway), and nids channel the will of the hivemind, wich is so strong even the warp gets silent around an hive fleet.

Ah, quite correct, Vancian casting means his power is located from his spellbook, no warp shenanigans for him (Assuming no latent pskyer potential), but none of that really changes the outcome. I will ammend my post to relfect the revelation.

[Yukitsu]

They all live on the same plane, the warp. They don't get pocket dimensions. The warp seems mutable, but it's got distinct attachment points to the material plane (such as the Cadian Gate). They can't just have pocket dimensions that do whatever they want and then open portals to where ever they want, as a D&D Wizard can. The point here is that the Emperor doesn't even get a chance to react, as the Wizard never has to leave his home plane where he has complete control.

JaronK

Actually, they do live in pocket dimensions. Tzeentch lives in the crystal labyranth, Nurgle in the garden, Khorne in the battle fields and Slaanesh in his pleasure palace carved out in the warp as stable regions that have substance based on the current power of the God in question.

As well, a psyker can open a portal to the warp from whatever as can an astropath. That's the whole point of the astronomicon, which lets the ships access the warp from anywhere. You're thinking of persistent rips in the materium that are more like natural phenomena. As for where they made the pocket dimensions, I don't know if they got to pick where they were. It's rather hard to tell in their case.

As for hitting Terra prime from his own home plane, I actually do doubt that could be easily done, assuming are both in their respective settings. Which set of spells would do that?

As well, most things a D&D wizard can do, I'd bet I can find an example of someone who can do it in 40K. Genesis was actually used by the Emperor prior to his death as he reformed part of the webway into a human habitabal demi plane section. Teleport and plane shift are listed as common daemonic arts, as is forced plane shift, a few hundred hundred means by which you can SoD, AoE or SoS people, and a mass mind rape was also used. The only thing they don't do is combo spells together, but that's generally because the psykers that powerful are insane, not because they can't.

[The Glyphstone]

Actually, they do live in pocket dimensions. Tzeentch lives in the crystal labyranth, Nurgle in the garden, Khorne in the battle fields and Slaanesh in his pleasure palace carved out in the warp as stable regions that have substance based on the current power of the God in question.

As well, a psyker can open a portal to the warp from whatever as can an astropath. That's the whole point of the astronomicon, which lets the ships access the warp from anywhere. You're thinking of persistent rips in the materium that are more like natural phenomena. As for where they made the pocket dimensions, I don't know if they got to pick where they were. It's rather hard to tell in their case.

As for hitting Terra prime from his own home plane, I actually do doubt that could be easily done, assuming are both in their respective settings. Which set of spells would do that?

As well, most things a D&D wizard can do, I'd bet I can find an example of someone who can do it in 40K. Genesis was actually used by the Emperor prior to his death as he reformed part of the webway into a human habitabal demi plane section. Teleport and plane shift are listed as common daemonic arts, as is forced plane shift, a few hundred hundred means by which you can SoD, AoE or SoS people, and a mass mind rape was also used. The only thing they don't do is combo spells together, but that's generally because the psykers that powerful are insane, not because they can't.

I'm not sure if those count as pocket dimensions though. Based on how the Warp works, its best D&D terminology equivalent would probably be a hybrid of the Astral Plane and Limbo - the personal domains of the Chaos Gods are more like isolated, stable Limbo islands than demiplanes.

[Yukitsu]

I'm not sure if those count as pocket dimensions though. Based on how the Warp works, its best D&D terminology equivalent would probably be a hybrid of the Astral Plane and Limbo - the personal domains of the Chaos Gods are more like isolated, stable Limbo islands than demiplanes.

That's pretty much what demiplanes are actually. Most people forget that they are technically islands in the astral plane itself and made of astral materials. Not certain if you can make the entry point to a chaos god's home plane as hard to access as a demiplane, but they otherwise operate as very close analogues.

[The Glyphstone]

That's pretty much what demiplanes are actually. Most people forget that they are technically islands in the astral plane itself and made of astral materials. Not certain if you can make the entry point to a chaos god's home plane as hard to access as a demiplane, but they otherwise operate as very close analogues.

That is a fairly good point, that demiplanes are technically offshoots of the Astral. The Warp doesn't really function anything like the Astral beyond its existence as the primary transportation route, though, which is why I used the analogy of stable Limbo islands.

[Edge]

Nitpick, but that's assuming that vancian arcane casting uses the warp at all. Most 40K psykers draw power from the warp, but there's some that don't need it at all. Ork weirdboys channell the WWWAAAGHHH!!!(altough there's a chance the WWAAAAGGGHHH!!!! is so strong it blows the weirboy's head anyway), and nids channel the will of the hivemind, wich is so strong even the warp gets silent around an hive fleet.

Except both of those still involve the Warp. The WAAAGH! is just the psyhic presence of Orkiness in the Warp, and the 'nid hivemind blocks astrotelepathy by clouding the Warp with excessive telepathic signals.

Personally, assuming the Emperor in his prime, I call it even. The Emperor is more powerful than an alpha + psyker, and several guard regiments plus two Space Marine companies have trouble even resisting twelve (if memory serves) of those when they escape on Thracian Primaris.

[Yukitsu]

There's the problem in crossovers between universes with vastly different magic systems; how do you establish what works and what doesn't?

We can't assume 40K walks into other realm. They have more restrictions on what you can safely cast in 40K than in D&D, and they use enough limitation devices for it to be known that they aren't playing ball as seriously as they theoretically could. The ones that do die, are possessed or are dragged into the warp and driven mad. I don't think anyone knows what the power of the emperor would be assuming he could cast using another source.

These do apply to arcanists in the 40K setting. We'll ignore that for the wizard, as no one really knows what in particular will set it off on any given go. We'll just say he has protection from evil up.

So, it will have to be in the 40K setting. Only real rules, summons and bindings only get warp monsters. Teleports are through the warp, plane shift only leads to the warp etc. The webway is theoretically around, but is forbidanced unless you use a physical entry point. If you cast genesis, it would work in the warp, not the astral. However, going there when you're a high powered sorcerer means you're instantly eaten by the Gods, unless you have sufficient preparation of which frankly I'd like to see.

Polymorph line works as normal, but polymorphing into any outsider will almost invariable cause immediate possession, even if you're using protection from evil. Because duh, I mean really.

No pun pun etc. for obvious reasons.

Meta abusers are fine. 40K blaster focused types can snap planets in half as collateral damage, so an orbizard tooled to the nines would be a pretty interesting match.

Shields block teleportation and plane shift. This is just to remain consistent with the shields and teleportation within the setting.

[JaronK]

Except demons just possess you. Protection From Evil/Mindblank should make you invisible to warp creatures and invincible to possession. From here it's a simple matter of firing off a Genesis (best done via Shadowcraft Mage tricks so it takes six seconds, otherwise you'll have to assemble more serious defenses). Once you've got your super speed Genesis, all you have to do is open Gates to whereever the Emperor is hiding and fire through them. Since you're operating at 1,000,000 times normal speed (or more, it's your choice) it's not like there's anything he can do back to you. Use Major Creation to dump gallons of Black Lotus on him, or to drop anvils made of Obdurium on his stuff. Summon various critters to beat on him. Use Effreetis to make wish based attacks. Whatever.

JaronK

[Tehnar]

A minor distraction, where does it say in the Genesis spell that you can alter the flow of time in the demiplane you created?

[JaronK]

A minor distraction, where does it say in the Genesis spell that you can alter the flow of time in the demiplane you created?

It says you can shape the environment to be anything you can visualize... remember that the environment is just the basic nature of the plane, and planar traits echo any definition of environment that makes sense to use. Flowing Time is one such trait (you'll also want Timeless).

Note that the divine version of Genesis is identical to the Arcane version, except at the end they add a line that says that you're not allowed to screw with time traits. Evidently after they made the Arcane version they realized how stupid allowing that was, but didn't bother to errata it.

Flowing Time Genesis is basically a high level Wizard trump card. Once that's up, you can't stop them.

JaronK