LYRIC THAUMATURGE: worth it , or not?

[iElf]

I was just looking in a copy of complete mage, when I saw this prestige class I kind of liked, so I wanted to ask if anyone has already had experience playing one before, and if it's worth playing one

[Eldariel]

I was just looking in a copy of complete mage, when I saw this prestige class I kind of liked, so I wanted to ask if anyone has already had experience playing one before, and if it's worth playing one

For a caster Bard? Possibly, for some levels before Sublime Chord. For a singer Bard? No, beyond possible 2-level dip for a free feat.

[nekomata2]

I like it. I really like the picture, and it doesn't really hurt a bard build, if you aren't taking more bard levels to up the Inspire bonus. It's better for a caster bard. Bard 6/LT 4/ SC 1 etc doesn't hurt, but that 5th level LT ability could be useful depending on your spell list.

[Optimystik]

If you're a caster bard, chances are you're going Sublime Chord anyway, making this no more than a dip at most.

[Pluto]

I like this class a lot on paper -- it's one of those rare PrC's with a power level very close to that of its base class.

Unfortunately, it competes for levels with Sublime Chord, which is just a ridiculous class.

I've never played one though.

[Ramza00]

It goes well with a melee style bard, especially when combine with gestalt. The 5th level ability (can't remember the name), allows you to add 1d6 sonic damage*spell level to any spell. Works great with spells such as thunderlance and mystic lance.

[ScionoftheVoid]

I agree with everyone saying it looks good but Sublime Chord is better for the kind of Bard that would take it. If you don't have Complete Arcane (semi-odd 'cause you do have Complete Mage), if you aren't going to get that many levels in a PrC in this campaign anyway or if your group thinks that full casters (casters gaining 8th/9th level spells) are overpowered then Lyric Thaumaturge is a very good option for a caster Bard. If none of the above are true then Lyric Thaumaturge is still worth taking (if you like the class there is no mechanical reason not to take it, as opposed to something like a Truenamer which is probably better handled by refluffing a caster/psionicist (in all seriousness casting based on skill checks is a horrid idea due to the way skills work, Truenaming and to a lesser extent Epic Spellcasting (it had other factors, but screwed up at least as badly if not worse) are examples of this[/random and likely known information])) but going into Sublime Chord at some point is recommended in additon.

So if you want a more casting focused Bard then Lyric Thaumaturge is a good option, probably as a stepping-stone to Sublime Chord (though it is definitely plenty viable even without Sublime Chord).

That was way too long-winded and repetitive, sorry.

Edit: @Ramza. Any (Sonic) spell. No gaining damage dice on a CLW (though that would be amusing in some situations).

[Raging Gene Ray]

If you want to go caster bard, the thing to do is go into Lyric Thamaturge as soon as you can, and then into Sublime Chord once you can do that.

Next, ask your DM if you can have the option to let Lyric Thaumaturge advance Sublime Chord spellcasting instead of bard spellcasting. If you succeed, switch to LT right after your second level of Sublime Chord.

I like Sublime Chord...but it begs the question of "why not just be a sorcerer?"

It goes well with a melee style bard, especially when combine with gestalt. The 5th level ability (can't remember the name), allows you to add 1d6 sonic damage*spell level to any spell. Works great with spells such as thunderlance and mystic lance.

Don't forget Channeled Sonic Blast from Complete Mage.

[Eldariel]

I like Sublime Chord...but it begs the question of "why not just be a sorcerer?"

Because you still get Bardic skills and songs, particularly Song of Arcane Power, Inspire Greatness and Inspire Courage. Indeed, Bard 9/Virtuoso 1/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso +8 (advancing Sublime Chord casting) is like an exemplary Bard; lots of songs, 9th level casting and caster level boosts for spells. Oh, and very solid spells.

It's also key in that you can afford to lose 4 caster levels in a Sublime Chord-build while still reaching 9th level spells; more if you build particularly carefully. This is more than just about anything else and as such, can accommodate non-caster casting-classes like Arcane Archer and Arcane Duelist as dips much better.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Because you still get Bardic skills and songs, particularly Song of Arcane Power, Inspire Greatness and Inspire Courage.

It's also key in that you can afford to lose 4 caster levels in a Sublime Chord-build while still reaching 9th level spells; more if you build particularly carefully. This is more than just about anything else and as such, can accommodate non-caster casting-classes like Arcane Archer and Arcane Duelist as dips much better.

??? Going into Sublime Chord at level 11 only lets you get 9th level spells at level 19 if you go straight Sublime Chord. How do you get that?

I haven't tried Virtuoso...I might see how that works out.

And I know all that about Sor/Wiz spells in addition to Bardic abilities...but it feels like trading some of the better Bardic Abilities for what seems to be VERY few spells known and spells per day...unless you have access to some of the better non-core spells.

[Eldariel]

??? Going into Sublime Chord at level 11 only lets you get 9th level spells at level 19 if you go straight Sublime Chord. How do you get that?

Sublime Chord only requires level 3 spells; Bard gets them on level 7 (and Wizard 5/Bard 1 already on level 6, and that's without accounting for many early entry tricks). This leaves you with 3 levels before Sublime Chord you can spend however the hell you like without affecting your final spell progression.

I haven't tried Virtuoso...I might see how that works out.

And I know all that about Sor/Wiz spells in addition to Bardic abilities...but it feels like trading some of the better Bardic Abilities for what seems to be VERY few spells known and spells per day...unless you have access to some of the better non-core spells.

Honestly, you already have the best bardic abilities in Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness. You get another one in Song of Arcane Power (+4 Caster Level is just insane). Your music will be awesome indeed and the Virtuoso build gets a few quite useful songs (though Revealing Melody will be postponed to level 21).

[nekomata2]

It goes well with a melee style bard, especially when combine with gestalt. The 5th level ability (can't remember the name), allows you to add 1d6 sonic damage*spell level to any spell. Works great with spells such as thunderlance and mystic lance.

Where is mystic lance from? Also, thunderlance is a force effect, not a sonic one. So you need a level of archmage or energy admixture in there, so the energy substitution feat doesn't do sonic.

[Optimystik]

Honestly, you already have the best bardic abilities in Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness. You get another one in Song of Arcane Power (+4 Caster Level is just insane). Your music will be awesome indeed and the Virtuoso build gets a few quite useful songs (though Revealing Melody will be postponed to level 21).

All this power does come at a tiny price though. In addition to the much lower spells known/day than a sorcerer, you cannot silence any of your spells.

[Ramza00]

Mystic lash is a bane spell from pgtf requires initate of bane feat. Creates 15 foor lighting whip that do up to 4d6+cha lighting damage and dazes on a fail save (I am doing this from memory)

Elven spell lore can switch any spell damage to sonic

[nekomata2]

I forgot about that one, it very much makes me want to make a bard who uses a sonic thunderlance, heightened to increase the damage sonic might adds.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Sublime Chord only requires level 3 spells; Bard gets them on level 7 (and Wizard 5/Bard 1 already on level 6, and that's without accounting for many early entry tricks). This leaves you with 3 levels before Sublime Chord you can spend however the hell you like without affecting your final spell progression.

I guess I wasn't clear on what you meant by "afford to lose 4 caster levels". I thought you were referring to AFTER you take Sublime Chord. Also, I thought Virtuoso only advanced spellcasting every other level. Now that I see it only takes away 1 level of spellcasting...

I think Bard 7/Virtuoso 3/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 7 seems like a fun build to try (assuming Virtuoso levels 4-10 advance Sublime Chord casting instead of Bard only. I'll have to see how it stacks up against a Lyric Thamaturge build.

Honestly, you already have the best bardic abilities in Inspire Courage and Inspire Greatness. You get another one in Song of Arcane Power (+4 Caster Level is just insane). Your music will be awesome indeed and the Virtuoso build gets a few quite useful songs (though Revealing Melody will be postponed to level 21).

I was referring to the loss of advancing the powers of existing abilities (the bonus of Inspire Courage and the Save DCs of Fascinate/Suggestion). But Virtuoso seems to take care of that.

Thanks!

[Optimator]

It's not a bad class in itself, and serves as a great dip before Sublime Chord, but--as everyone has said--it pales before the SC in the field for which it was designed: the caster Bard. Also, it's super easy to get into.

[Eldariel]

I guess I wasn't clear on what you meant by "afford to lose 4 caster levels". I thought you were referring to AFTER you take Sublime Chord. Also, I thought Virtuoso only advanced spellcasting every other level. Now that I see it only takes away 1 level of spellcasting...

I think Bard 7/Virtuoso 3/Sublime Chord 2/Virtuoso 7 seems like a fun build to try (assuming Virtuoso levels 4-10 advance Sublime Chord casting instead of Bard only. I'll have to see how it stacks up against a Lyric Thamaturge build.

I personally prefer Bard 9 to get access to Inspire Greatness; combined with Vest of Legend and Song of the Heart and Words of Creation, that song is just too good to pass up on. But yeah, that's rather respectable too.

I was referring to the loss of advancing the powers of existing abilities (the bonus of Inspire Courage and the Save DCs of Fascinate/Suggestion). But Virtuoso seems to take care of that.

Precisely. And for Lyric Thaumaturge? Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 10 is fine, though unfortunately misses out on better Bardic Music. Getting Lyric Thaumaturge 5 would be nice for some Sonic Power fooling, but for that you really need Primary Contact/Favored for the extra rank of Perform to enter on Bard 5, to fit it in before losing Sublime Chord casting (in this case, Virtuoso would lose a Caster Level so I'm skipping it, especially since songs can't be your focus anymore anyways; just use Song of Arcane Power and maybe the two Sublime Chord songs). Though of course, you can still afford losing a level of Sublime Chord casting and get 9s.

All this power does come at a tiny price though. In addition to the much lower spells known/day than a sorcerer, you cannot silence any of your spells.

Of course, of course; it isn't better, just different. And Sorcerer can fit real PrCs there, while Sublime Chord already needs the PrC just for the casting, so yeah, it's not a "win-win".