Who is Batman? (I know what you're thinking)

[Beleriphon]

Let me say this upfront I know that Bruce Wayne is Batman. Thats not the point of this discussion. I want to discuss who Batman is as a person. We all know the history, some of you know much more than I do, and I consider myself pretty well versed in the history.

To start I got this idea with a comment I made in the thread about Marvel's Civil War series detailing the US government try to force supers to reveal themselves publicly. This made me think about Batman, and what he would do if somebody tried to make him take off the mask. Then I started thinking about Bruce Wayne and Batman dynamic. Is Bruce Wayne Batman, or is Batman Bruce Wayne. The comics tend to teeter between one or the other. At times its in the middle where Batman and Bruce are the same person just presenting different extremes of the personality.

For me I always envisioned Bruce having died in that alley with his parents. We may not know it them, but a new person, a new personality festers and boils until a suit is donned and a new person emerges. Bruce is the veneer that Batman uses to appear normal. Its his given name, but its not the person that he is anymore. So is man the name that was given to him, or does he name himself?

Anyhoo thats my philisophical take on Bats, now for a more comic book legal take. If Batman arrests somebody, and being a deputy of the Gotham police it is possible, does the crook get to face his accuser in Batman or Bruce Wayne. While linked to the above the question is more are you being arrested by Bruce Wayne wearing a costume, or could Batman be considered a separate entity for the purposes of the justice system, being that the Batman is the deputy in name, not Bruce Wayne. I'm not a lawyer, or American, but I could see a slick attorney going either way.

Edit: Title clarity and spelling. And spaces... stupid spaces.

[Haggis_McCrablice]

In "Over the Edge", the lawyer for Harley, Hatter, and Wesker/Scarface considers Bruce Wayne legally culpable for his actions as Batman, and plans to file a class-action suit. Of course, this is Barbara's fear-gassed coma nightmare, but being daughter of a police commissioner, she probably knows the law well, and the criminals probably would have a fairly good case.

In a Batman Beyond episode, Bruce mentions that he subconciously calls himself Batman--which is how he knew he wasn't hearing voices in his head, because the voice that talked to him (through a transmitter concealed under a bandage) kept calling him "Bruce").

Bruce quotes philosopher George Santyana in one episode ("I Am the Night", I think). He once said that when fighting monsters, one should take care not to become one. What does Bruce see when he looks in the mirror each morning, I wonder: man or beast?

You could ask the same of Harvey Dent/Two-Face--where does one end and the other begin? Both men are dichotymous, forever torn by their own inner demons; the only real difference is, Bruce can remove his other face, and Dent cannot.

[Beleriphon]

You could ask the same of Harvey Dent/Two-Face--where does one end and the other begin? Both men are dichotymous, forever torn by their own inner demons; the only real difference is, Bruce can remove his other face, and Dent cannot.

The reason that I love Harvey as a villain. Of course the problem with Harv is that he's clearly both personalities at once, and they conflict, or rather they are two extremes of the same man in conflict. Batman is different, he assumes the role of Batman, or assume the role of Bruce Wayne. We can see where one ends and one begins, the problem is we don't know which one we see.

[lunar]

I am Batman.

[Beleriphon]

I am Batman.

That actually made me laugh out loud. BTW, Kramer is Batman. Duh.

Edit Further thoughts:

I think I mentioned Marvel's Civil War thing going right now. I'd like see how Batman would react to that. Would he just take the mask off and fight crime as Bruce Wayne, or is Batman so much Batman that he doesn't differentiate between himself and Bruce Wayne.

[CelestialStick]

We briefly discussed this very topic on another thread a few weeks back. The conventional wisdom is that Batman is the real person and Bruce Wayne the false front, but I see it as the opposite: Bruce Wayne became the dark and twisted, nearly pyschopathic personality when his parents died. Only later did he don the Batman suit (leotard or rubber suit ;)) as a way of letting out his inner psychopath. It's still Bruce Wayne, or at least a part of Bruce Wayne's personality.

I think it would be nigh impossible for Bruce Wayne to keep fighting crime if people knew he was Batman. Every criminal in Gotham would be out to get him, and they'd know where to find him. I mean, I'm sure he would keep trying to fight crime, but he would be overwhelmed by the endless supply of villains out to get him. As Batman he can skulk back home when he gets his butt kicked and hang out as a normal person, but he wouldn't have that option any longer if he revealed Batman's true identity. He could hunker down in the Batcave while villains blew up Wayne Manor, but eventually he'd have to come out for groceries, and someone would get him. And if we're talking about a Bruce Wayne who has Alfred, you could kiss Alfred goodbye.

I suppose both Bruce and Alfred could go into hiding, and fight crime from the shadows without having any sort of life. The whole point of the secret identities originally was that these people do have real lives beyond the crime fighting.

[Beleriphon]

We briefly discussed this very topic on another thread a few weeks back. The conventional wisdom is that Batman is the real person and Bruce Wayne the false front, but I see it as the opposite: Bruce Wayne became the dark and twisted, nearly pyschopathic personality when his parents died. Only later did he don the Batman suit (leotard or rubber suit ;)) as a way of letting out his inner psychopath. It's still Bruce Wayne, or at least a part of Bruce Wayne's personality.

Or of course you need to include the nomex battle armour now. As for who he is I like to think that Batman is more the real personality of Bruce. The playboy, friendly, normal CEO of Wayne Enterprises is a front for Bruce. He's a dark, obsessed person with real psychological issues, Batman is who he is, but the costume is what allows himt o exact justice on the deserving without reprisal.

I think that if Bruce could get away with being the public crime fighting nut job that he is he would. Its being made a point that being both the playboy and Batman has cause more psychological issues for him than its prevented threats.

[CelestialStick]

Or of course you need to include the nomex battle armour now. As for who he is I like to think that Batman is more the real personality of Bruce. The playboy, friendly, normal CEO of Wayne Enterprises is a front for Bruce. He's a dark, obsessed person with real psychological issues, Batman is who he is, but the costume is what allows himt o exact justice on the deserving without reprisal.

I think that if Bruce could get away with being the public crime fighting nut job that he is he would. Its being made a point that being both the playboy and Batman has cause more psychological issues for him than its prevented threats.

What's nomex?
I think we are saying the same thing different ways: Batman is just the excuse for Bruce to let out his inner psychopath.

[Beleriphon]

What's nomex?
I think we are saying the same thing different ways: Batman is just the excuse for Bruce to let out his inner psychopath.

Nomex isn't what I meant, that being said its a fireretardent materail. Firefighting gear is made out of it.

I think we are saying the same basic, but from different perspectives. I'm getting that your idea is that Batman is a way for Bruce to fight back. My view is that Batman is Bruce's "real" personality, with the "outside" Bruce his way of trying to be normal. Bruce isn't fighting back, he's being himself with Batman, if he could be Batman without the the persona he'd be Bruce Wayne billionaire crime fighter, more like Tony Stark perhaps. Of coures nobody in their right mind would want to deal with Bruce as a person at that point.

I guess thats the point of Batman. He's a way for Bruce to be himself in terms of how he actually treats people and situations, where as the "outside" Bruce is the way that he can act with people other than superheros, or his closest confidantes, and not have the run in terror.

[Ing]

batman is too paranoid to let the goverment know who he is. i suspect a moment like in watchman where in response to the proposed act, batman leaves a beat up thug or even federal agent sent to 'register' him with the note "NEVER!" or "OVER MY DEAD BODY"

[Sophistemon]

That was one of the best parts of the book, in my opinion.

[Ar-Sakal]

I believe you can safely assume that both Batman and Burce Wayne are just facets of a complex man. Whether you call this man Bruce or Batman is irrelevant.

When this complex man needs to be superbillionare playboy Wayne, he plays the cheerful, colorful, and spontaneous character. And when he needs to confront evil as Batman, he allows himself to become a silent, ninja-like stalker with amazing detective abilities.

At the same time notice that both Batman and Bruce Wayne share similar aspects, like reliance in few close friends, a selection of the worst possible type of women, or an imbeded sense of justice and compassion.

[Jack Mann]

I remember back in Sandman, Batman and Superman (and the Martian Manhunter) made a brief appearance. Superman was, in the Dreaming, wearing a suit and his glasses, clearly Clark Kent. Batman was wearing an even more batlike version of his costume. Of course, that's just Gaiman's interpretation of the characters, but it was interesting.

[The Prince of Cats]

I think The Killing Joke was the best illustration of who Batman is. After all that the Joker put him through, they end up sitting together on a rooftop, laughing at a shared joke. Even Batman is human, underneath.

Of course, **** Grayson tried it but just wasn't dark enough. Jean Paul Valley was too dark. Bruce Wayne is the Batman who clings to a tricky balance. Stray but a little and he either becomes what he hunts or fails entirely...

[Tarlonniel]

Laughing?! With the man who killed his protege?!! :o

That's neither human nor Batman. That's completely OOC and psychotic.

[TreesOfDeath]

The whole point of superhero idenitys is that you can be a buisnessman and someone who fights for justice.
Humans are complex beings with multiple roles and personalitys. We are not just a person who does one thing.
But it seems obvious that Batman thinks of himself as Batman more, and his life purpose is being Batman, not Bruce Wayne

[Beleriphon]

Laughing?! With the man who killed his protege?!! :o

That's neither human nor Batman. That's completely OOC and psychotic.

Yeah, but they have this weird dysfunctional relationship. Batman despises the Joker and what he represents, but there is a certain respect there, its the same with Joker. He wants nothing more than to kill Batman, but there would hell to pay if somebody else ever did the deed.

I think they share a joke after Batman is trapped in Arkham ( with all the loonies. Joker ultimately helps him because he wants to be teh one to kill the bat, he tells a bad joke right at the end as order is restored and both Batman and Joker laugh. It was funny after all.

The thing that we have to remember is that Batman has a lot more in common with the Joker than he does with other people. Both of them realise this. Batman works very hard to not fall over the edge, where as Joker revels in having taken a flying leap into the abyss.

[kamikasei]

In my view there are not two, but three Batmen. Call them Bruce Wayne, Batman, and The Bat. Batman is the real person, and is who people like Superman, Robin, Nightwing etc. see and know. He's a driven, hyper-competent Uberman, with emotional issues but ultimately human (with a dash of Vulcan or mentat thrown in). Bruce Wayne the billionaire playboy twit is an act. The Bat, then, is the face he presents to criminals, the shadow seen out of the corner of the eye around which legends and fear accrue. The Bat is not a person but a symbol, which Batman has to put in a lot of work to maintain.

Batman Begins gives a good example of this, I think. Think of Batman as Christian Bale when dealing with Alfred, with Fox, and so on. It's clear there that Bruce Wayne, as seen with the obnoxious grin or in the hotel with the supermodels, is an act. The costumed Bat, with raspy voice and dark theatrics, is another act.

I remember back in Sandman, Batman and Superman (and the Martian Manhunter) made a brief appearance. Superman was, in the Dreaming, wearing a suit and his glasses, clearly Clark Kent. Batman was wearing an even more batlike version of his costume. Of course, that's just Gaiman's interpretation of the characters, but it was interesting.

I recall that scene - and comments Gaiman made about it. Apparently the original intent, which they ran out of panel space to represent, was for Kent to be shown glancing nervously at his ankles where his cape was peeking out, and for Batman to be increasingly batlike lower down, like the Man-Bat aside from the head and shoulders. The reasoning he described was that Superman was a persona worn by Clark Kent and which he feared being revealed, while Batman's image of himself had merged with the legend he used to frighten criminals.

Of course, **** Grayson tried it but just wasn't dark enough. Jean Paul Valley was too dark. Bruce Wayne is the Batman who clings to a tricky balance. Stray but a little and he either becomes what he hunts or fails entirely...

I haven't read the Azrael stories, so I don't know if there's much resemblance, but I particularly liked the Tim Drake Batman as a 'what-if'.

[battleburn]

Look at it from this perspective.
Peter Parker clearly is Peter Parker, who has to deal with superpowers and therefore has to work with the extra life of spiderman.

Batman/Bruce Wayne is completely different. (Especially in de new 'batman begins' movie.)
After the murder of his parents, he becomes a tool for revenge. He schools himself in the martial arts and when he comes back to Gotham city, he really wants to stay anonymous. But alas, he is to famous for that. He takes up the role as Bruce Wayne for the public, but he really is Batman.
There is Peter Parker with the extra role of Spiderman;
And there is Batman with the extra role of Bruce Wayne.

[Hoseki]

To some extent, everyone who dons a mask and a skintight suit to fight crime as a superhero is going to have messed up identity issues. They're going to wonder who rips off his shirt in the telephone booth and who snaps pictures/writes stories/does whatever millionairs do during the day.

Lat's take Spiderman. He cracks jokes, makes puns, and is in general light-hearted as he cleans up city filth. Now let's look at when Peter decides Spiderman isn't worth it. Spidey's jokes and quips made Peter Parker a funnier, more charismatic person than Peter alone. Everyone notices that Peter is around more, but hanging out with him just isn't as fun. In Spidey's absence, Peter isn't Peter.

My theory: Multiple personality disorder. Mostly self-inflicted and controllable, but multiple personality disorder.

I'm probably the last person you'd ask for a medical diagnosis on the condition of superheros, though, so don't take any of this too seriously. :)

[battleburn]

In my previous post I "diagnosed" Spiderman and Batman completely different.
So Hoseki, what do you say about the Batman/Bruce Wayne issue, which is what this topic is all about

[Hoseki]

I used Spidey as an example. The B-man just has an even less compatable personality to deal with.

[Rei_Jin]

When I saw the title of this thread, I couldn't help myself.

Old Snickers Commercial

You probably remember it.


Who are you?

I am Batman.

[OldFart]

There is Peter Parker with the extra role of Spiderman;
And there is Batman with the extra role of Bruce Wayne.

Quoted for truth.

You know, I used to explain why I preferred Marvel to DC with the following argument -

Superman pretends to be Clark Kent. Batman pretends to be Bruce Wayne. Peter Parker pretends to be Spiderman. It's all about who the focal point of the comic is - the costumed identity or the man in the costume.

[Devils_Advocate]

Is Bruce Wayne Batman, or is Batman Bruce Wayne.

Yes. ;D

There's nothing uncommon about interacting with different people in different ways under different circumstances. Indeed, anyone whose behavior never notably changed would come across as (and be) nuts. So which of your modes of behavior is the "real you"? What does that even mean? Wouldn't the "real you" be the mind behind those different "personalities"?

The difference is just more pronounced with Batman/Bruce Wayne because we see him (them?) in two distinct sets of wildly different circumstances.

[CelestialStick]

Nomex isn't what I meant, that being said its a fireretardent materail. Firefighting gear is made out of it.

I think we are saying the same basic, but from different perspectives. I'm getting that your idea is that Batman is a way for Bruce to fight back. My view is that Batman is Bruce's "real" personality, with the "outside" Bruce his way of trying to be normal. Bruce isn't fighting back, he's being himself with Batman, if he could be Batman without the the persona he'd be Bruce Wayne billionaire crime fighter, more like Tony Stark perhaps. Of coures nobody in their right mind would want to deal with Bruce as a person at that point.

I guess thats the point of Batman. He's a way for Bruce to be himself in terms of how he actually treats people and situations, where as the "outside" Bruce is the way that he can act with people other than superheros, or his closest confidantes, and not have the run in terror.

I don't know where you "get" that idea at all. Did I say anything about "fighting back?" The death of his parents made Bruce a near-psychopath, and since he can't behave that way openly he had to create the Batman personna to get away with that behavior.

Bruce was a near-psychopath since the death of his parents, a good decade or more before he invented Batman. The real person is Bruce Wayne, regardless of whether he acts as himself truely only when he dons the cap and cowl. Lots of us act as our true selves only when others can't see us, and that doesn't mean we're really a person with a different name. It just means that people don't know the real us.

[TinSoldier]

I think he's more of a sociopath than a psychopath.

I think that Batman is the real persona; Bruce Wayne is the front.

[Ing]

Nah he's not a sociopath or a psychopath.

sociopath= sees no reason to respect social rules or other human beings...not that they CANT they just see no reason

psychopath= someone delusional who acts on those delusions violently...maybe this is batman

i think he's clearly got more OCPD (obeseive compuslive personality disorder). he obsesses on certian things, may form a ritual behavior to eleviate stress it, and has a hyper controling personality with the need to be in control of their surrondings. the fact that he has a phobia about guns also seems to way into some sort of OCPD. look at it this way everyone gets mad and upset after a tragidy...but only an obsessive keeps on it and uses it to rebuild himself and spends 20+years working ot rebuild his world so that it revolves around this one event.


I read one comic where Wayne, hallucinated and was talking to ThE BAT. it seemed to propose that Wayne was one person seeking vengence or closure, THE BAT was really the imbodiement elemental of fear that lurks in the shared sub conscious and Wayne and Fear latched on to eachother in a symboitic relationship to form The Batman.
it was a good comic, the bat tried to convine Wayne to give him free reign over the night, let him be free to use any methods and allow Wayne to just be a vessel and have no real role or memory of the events Batman did. in the end i think Wayne rejected the offer and clearly decided to work on his mental fortitude, worrying that his darkside was starting to control and use him rather than him using it as a tool. so from that it seems to state that Wayne WAS the real person but from diving so deep into the darkness he's been changed forever and it's creeped in and altered his very nature. in the begining he was Wayne +batman but slowly he's become Batman + Wayne and fears eventually he's beome just Batman

[TinSoldier]

Depending on which comics you read (I mainly have a few graphic novels, including Batman: Year One and Batman: The Dark Knight Returns) as well as a few movie sources, the Bat may well be a real entity.

[Ing]

yah Batman's cowl kinda animated into a compleatly seamless batman (in that it had batmans apperance but was not a costume) very distrubing.

interestingly Bane believes that batman is the avatar of a fear elemental demon that haunted him durring his childhood that he called "the Bat". whether there's any mystical origin/conection or if both of them have hallucinated at one point or another (batman had gone without sleep for a while at that point) is up to the reader....sadly giving him one step up on Spiderman where the mystical origin was forcefed to us.