[D&D 3.5] Straining the Limits of Mundane when making a Powerful Warrior

[JeminiZero]

One of the main complaints about D&D 3.5 is that Melee does not scale nearly as well as Casters at high levels. And in turn, one of the more of quoted examples of how D&D should be like, is Conan the Barbarian.

But Conan seems to live in a world where magic is not nearly as strong as D&D. But this extends beyond the weaker mages and into every other aspect of combat in Conan's World. Cimmeria does not seem to have creatures like the Tarrasque, a monster so friggin strong it can level continents, and so friggin tough that mortal armies cannot even hope to slow it down (except by offering themselves as munchables).

In short, D&D isn't Cimmeria. It isn't even remotely close (at least not without banning a whole lot of stuff, and copious rule zero). Everything is just so much stronger. The net result is that many Melee classes (either official or homebrew) that can keep up with casters tends to do stuff so fantastic, it stops being a mundane badass, and starts looking more like a Warrior with some magic. Case in point: Psychic Warriors. Even the recently publicized Warmarked has many abilities that are apparently magical, even if the label beside them says (Ex). (The fact that you don't need to choose the abilities is besides the point here. All I'm saying is that the creators of the Warmarked felt it necessary to include such abilities.*).

*Note: I am not saying that there is anything wrong with a being a Warrior with Magic, or that the Warmarked is a bad class since it appears to be one. Many people play these classes and are perfectly happy with them.

Now, I am most familiar with 2 tabletop game systems: D&D 3.5 and M&M 2e. M&M 2e as some of you might be aware, is meant to simulate the superhero genre. So the point I am trying to make, will be coloured somewhat by this. But the point is thus: D&D is a world where Casters can reshape reality and High Level Enemy Monsters can level cities. If you want a 100% Mundane Badass Warrior (i.e. excluding PsyWars and the like) that can go against this sort of thing, you are going to have to think bigger than Conan. Instead, you probably want him to be something more like the Incredible Hulk.

This goes beyond mere brute force, consider the following comparison between the Hulk and the Tarrasque:

Similiarities:
1) Both are insanely strong/tough monstrousities that can flatten mortal armies and level cities.

Cosmetic Differences:
1) One is red, the other is green.
2) The Tarrasque is (usually) bigger, and has more limbs.
3) The Tarrasque will try to eat you whereas the Hulk will not.

Mechanical Differences:
1) The Hulk can punch like a gattling gun if he really wants so.
2) The Hulk can leap from continent to continent. Or he can jump sufficiently high to punch jets out of the sky. The Tarrasque on the other hand is a sitting duck against anything that flies, although it can dash really fast, once per minute or so.
3) The Hulk can rip out fragments of the ground, and hurl it at flying enemies. The Tarrasque despite comparable strength cannot replicate this, although common hill giant can.
(Incidentally, if the hulk uses a sufficiently big rock, M&M treats it as an area attack, which automatically hits, reflex for half)
4) The Hulk can clap his hands together so hard, it creates a shockwave that blows enemies in the vicinity away.
5) The Hulk can stomp the ground so hard it creates an earthquake.

And so on and so forth. In short, the greatest mechanical difference between the Hulk and the Tarrasque, is that the Hulk can do far more things with his brute strength. Now, ToB has *some* things that try to provide such options for the Mundane Badass. (Any of the extra damage single strike maneuvers, Stone Dragon's Earthquake strike, Iron Heart Surge).

But it still falls short in some repects. (I.e. no jumping 200 ft into the sky and bringing a flyer down. Even a Warblade needs either some means of flying, or at least, the ability chuck siege weaponry as most ranged attacks can't cut it against Windwall... But this is neither here not there.)

TL;DR: If we wanted to build a 100% Mundane Badass Warrior in D&D, that could get by without *any* apparent magic, he would probably start to look something like the Incredible Hulk. And ToB already emulates this to some degree.

But for those who do want to play totally Mundane Warriors, would it be acceptable if you could in fact, fight almost exactly like the Hulk (excluding stylistic choices like weapons and armor or the lack thereof)? Would it strain the suspension of disbelief if your Warrior could jump 200 ft into the sky, and then slam his Greataxe repeatedly into that pesky Wizard? Or if he could reshape the scenery with his bare hands, and fling portions of it his foes?

[Learnedguy]

But for those who do want to play totally Mundane Warriors, would it be acceptable if you could in fact, fight almost exactly like the Hulk (excluding stylistic choices like weapons and armor or the lack thereof)? Would it strain the suspension of disbelief if your Warrior could jump 200 ft into the sky, and then slam his Greataxe repeatedly into that pesky Wizard? Or if he could reshape the scenery with his bare hands, and fling portions of it his foes?

Depends on your views of Charles Atlas Superpowers. I mean, you're not a badass normal anymore, but your powers aren't magic or anything. It's just very intense training.

Good examples of Charles Atlas Superpowers are One Piece (Zoro, Sanji, Usopp), especially the later chapters, when the "normals" starts to throw buildings at each other.

Personally, I find Charles Atlas Super humorous and flavourful

[Melamoto]

I agree with this idea. I think that to make it happen, you need feat chains that extend up to high levels, giving constant bonuses that help achieve these things. Like, say, a "Leap Skyward" feat that lets them jump incredibly high, with a 2-3 feat long chain taken over the course of levels 10-20 or so. Or perhaps feats that let them stretch the rules of combat; so for example, letting them attack multiple enemies along the route of a charge, or taking "Full Attacks of Opportunity". So fighters would have a use for all those bonus feats, and they could ultimately decimate lower level creatures and characters, perhaps achieving quadratic scaling status. The only downside of this is that it would make Fighters overpowered compared to other melee classes. Unless they were given bonus feats too, of course.

[IcarusWings]

I think that there is nothing wrong with stretching reality, as long as there is no magic.

e.g. moving very very very fast, leaping into the air 200ft? fine. Making your sword have FIRE! no.

[Drakevarg]

Personally the main reason I dislike the way things like ToB work is that alot of the stances and whatnot (I'm not actually familiar with the system, since I just find it conceptually distasteful. As such my knowledge comes mostly from playing alongside them in PbP) don't seem to have much of a connection between what they're doing and what happens as a result. (i.e., Take pose X, now target Y is easier to hit by EVERYONE.)

One reason I play Fighters alot is that they are mechanically VERY simple. As they should be. If I wanted a laser gun with 78 settings I'd play a Wizard. I want a sword. Which is comprised of a sharp and pointy piece of metal with a non-sharp section for holding. It's function is you put the sharp and pointy parts into other thing's fleshy bits and they go away. Very easy to keep track of.

What the Tarrasque has, and what you would want to go with (in my opinion) if you want a Fighter than can stand up to casters, is to take the relevent numbers in making things be dead and you be not dead, and make them very very high.

I've heard alot of arguements in the past that "melee fighters want more options in combat than 'I full attack again'". NO I BLOODY DON'T. I want to hit this snarling thing in front of me until it goes away and get back to the story.

[Eldariel]

What the Tarrasque has, and what you would want to go with (in my opinion) if you want a Fighter than can stand up to casters, is to take the relevent numbers in making things be dead and you be not dead, and make them very very high.

Know what the issue here is? Tarrasque sucks. It might hurt, but it really, really does. Anything without spells on those levels is merely a toy, not a player. Level 9 Wizard could defeat the Tarrasque without real risk to himself quite consistently (How? Allip.).

The Tarrasque cannot threaten a Wizard outside an Anti-Magic Field. He simply doesn't have the options required for Wizard to not be immune to everything he can throw at him. And that's really the bottomline in the "mundane sucks"-issue; the problem of warriors isn't that their numbers are too low. It's that they don't have the relevant options to get through various magical issues, while casters have no trouble at all finding a spell to get through mundane issues.

I've heard alot of arguements in the past that "melee fighters want more options in combat than 'I full attack again'". NO I BLOODY DON'T. I want to hit this snarling thing in front of me until it goes away and get back to the story.

Well, there's an exception to every rule, but I've heard a lot to the contrary from a lot of people myself included. Every guy in games I've played has generally decided to play Fighter for a dozen levels, grow dead bored and switch to Warblade.

[Greenish]

Personally the main reason I dislike the way things like ToB work is that alot of the stances and whatnot (I'm not actually familiar with the system, since I just find it conceptually distasteful. As such my knowledge comes mostly from playing alongside them in PbP) don't seem to have much of a connection between what they're doing and what happens as a result. (i.e., Take pose X, now target Y is easier to hit by EVERYONE.)

They do have fluff descriptions on what you do (such as shout instructions to allies).

One reason I play Fighters alot is that they are mechanically VERY simple. As they should be. If I wanted a laser gun with 78 settings I'd play a Wizard. I want a sword. Which is comprised of a sharp and pointy piece of metal with a non-sharp section for holding. It's function is you put the sharp and pointy parts into other thing's fleshy bits and they go away. Very easy to keep track of.

Whatever tickles your fancy, but your sentiment is hardly universal.

What the Tarrasque has, and what you would want to go with (in my opinion) if you want a Fighter than can stand up to casters, is to take the relevent numbers in making things be dead and you be not dead, and make them very very high.

You can make a charger to deal enough damage to kill everything in Monster Manuals 1 to 4 in one round. That hardly seems to be a solution to anything though.

I've heard alot of arguements in the past that "melee fighters want more options in combat than 'I full attack again'". NO I BLOODY DON'T. I want to hit this snarling thing in front of me until it goes away and get back to the story.

You aren't exactly the only melee fighter.

[Drakevarg]

Know what the issue here is? Tarrasque sucks. It might hurt, but it really, really does. Anything without spells on those levels is merely a toy, not a player. Level 9 Wizard could defeat the Tarrasque without real risk to himself quite consistently (How? Allip.).

The Tarrasque cannot threaten a Wizard outside an Anti-Magic Field. He simply doesn't have the options required for Wizard to not be immune to everything he can throw at him. And that's really the bottomline in the "mundane sucks"-issue; the problem of warriors isn't that their numbers are too low. It's that they don't have the relevant options to get through various magical issues, while casters have no trouble at all finding a spell to get through mundane issues.

And this is why I go out of my way to make spellcasters miserable.

Speaking of which, next time my party gets together I'm murdering the sorcerer. Simple as that.

You aren't exactly the only melee fighter.

Nor are the people who present this arguement. What makes me wrong and them right?

[PhoenixRivers]

Nor are the people who present this arguement. What makes me wrong and them right?

Nothing. Then again, if fighters had 300 options, and one of them was your style, wouldn't that satisfy both views?

In short? More options doesn't need to remove the option to be simple.

[crazedloon]

well in all truth these things are very possible, It just requires the proper feat choices as well as as only a little DM assistance.

The DMG has rules for hardness and hit points. Use this this to break the ground to pieces to cause difficult terrain, or create weapons to use to fight your enemy.

leaping dragon and a few other feats will boost your jump checks (not to hard to get it around +40) which allows you to make rather high jump, add feats such as battle jumper and roof jumper to do a lot of damage.

of course there are more options and ToB does make things easier but a lot of the problems for a fighter is all the things you can do are very rule intensive (so you need a good knowledge of them) as opposed to a simple standard action of a mage.

[Greenish]

leaping dragon and a few other feats will boost your jump checks (not to hard to get it around +40) which allows you to make rather high jump, add feats such as battle jumper and roof jumper to do a lot of damage.

Jumping 200' into the air is DC 800 jump check.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Goliath Fighter 6, Dungeoncrasher ACF, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Knockback, Brutal Throw, Rock Hurling. Perfect for an E6 game, because this is probably the most dangerous mundane warrior possible in that context. Otherwise, trade Rock Hurling for Cleave and get ten levels of War Hulk.

[crazedloon]

Jumping 200' into the air is DC 800 jump check.

yes, however I find such a feat silly.

If you want to play a mundane warrior doing great things, do not play in a high fantasy world.

lets take your example of the hulk to a much more broad approach. Look at the world where hulk lives.
-high level psions: Jean Gray, Prof X, ect who can bend minds and the world around them
-high powered mages: scarlet witch, Dr Strange
-ToB users: Wolverine (yes those are tiger claw maneuvers) Gambit (desert wind) Dare Devil (diamond mind) ect
-Magic Item users (artificers) : Nick fury, Mr Fantastic
-Racial templates: The hulk (his abilities do not come from training but inborn power)
-Acquired Templates: The Juggernaut (demons are awesome)

than you have your simple fighter
The Captain. What can he do?
-he is stronger, faster, smarter than a normal human (heroic stats)
-he knows a lot of combat maneuvers (feats)
-he knows a few special tricks (ToB feats picked up)

But really as fighters in DnD when it comes down to it he is really really weak. He can beat low tier (power wise) supers through smart planning and use of the field of combat (which comes down to a player thinking about combat) not abilities (which you are attempting to emulate)

If you ask me this is the problem with most fighters. They expect to win with a sharp stick. That is not how a fighter wins he does it with his head first. You are in a world with vastly superior beings, use your head and get some tricks whether it be the trap set hours before the combat or some magic items. Also friends help (i.e. this is a group game)

If you don't want to do that than play a barbarian and insist you play in some Conan wanna-be game. Normal DnD is not meant for you

[PhoenixRivers]

yes, however I find such a feat silly.

If you want to play a mundane warrior doing great things, do not play in a high fantasy world.

lets take your example of the hulk to a much more broad approach. Look at the world where hulk lives.
-high level psions: Jean Gray, Prof X, ect who can bend minds and the world around them
-high powered mages: scarlet witch, Dr Strange
-ToB users: Wolverine (yes those are tiger claw maneuvers) Gambit (desert wind) Dare Devil (diamond mind) ect

Wolverine uses regeneration and has grafts, as well. Daredevil has Blindsight.

-Magic Item users (artificers) : Nick fury, Mr Fantastic

Don't forget Tony Stark

-Racial templates: The hulk (his abilities do not come from training but inborn power)
-Acquired Templates: The Juggernaut (demons are awesome)

than you have your simple fighter
The Captain. What can he do?
-he is stronger, faster, smarter than a normal human (heroic stats)
-he knows a lot of combat maneuvers (feats)
-he knows a few special tricks (ToB feats picked up)

He also is a magic item user, with an indestructible shield.

But really as fighters in DnD when it comes down to it he is really really weak. He can beat low tier (power wise) supers through smart planning and use of the field of combat (which comes down to a player thinking about combat) not abilities (which you are attempting to emulate)

If you ask me this is the problem with most fighters. They expect to win with a sharp stick. That is not how a fighter wins he does it with his head first. You are in a world with vastly superior beings, use your head and get some tricks whether it be the trap set hours before the combat or some magic items. Also friends help (i.e. this is a group game)

If you don't want to do that than play a barbarian and insist you play in some Conan wanna-be game. Normal DnD is not meant for you

I find the bolded mindset offensive. "normal D&D" is a game built from the ground up to be mutable and changeable.

And if a fighter can only win with 17 hours of advance planning and foreknowledge...

Well, he's kinda screwed when his opponents can see the future.

[Greenish]

yes, however I find such a feat silly.

What feat?

[crazedloon]

Wolverine uses regeneration and has grafts, as well. Daredevil has Blindsight.

regen = devout spirit healing maneuvers
blindsight = hear the air

Don't forget Tony Stark
He also is a magic item user, with an indestructible shield.

of course I am not going to list them all (and it is broken all the time)

I find the bolded mindset offensive. "normal D&D" is a game built from the ground up to be mutable and changeable.

And if a fighter can only win with 17 hours of advance planning and foreknowledge...

Well, he's kinda screwed when his opponents can see the future.

I am sorry it is a little blunt, let me clarify. A non tailored game of DnD where even the basics (i.e.) phb is available is not meant for you. With well meaning DMs/PCs or class/ability restrictions you can make a perfectly fun game with normal fighters shining without uber optimization.

Indeed the more basic you get the less viable the fighter gets....

Also here is a rather ironic twist. A fighter expects to be able to walk into a fight and win without preparation? But a wizard is expected to have scryed 10 times, communed 3 times, set up contingencies, summoned a few friends and than tailored a list for an encounter. Thus the reason they win? But why can the fighter not do the same thing? Indeed for him it is harder to do since it requires more effort, a little more gold and some RPing (we wouldn't want that would we) but when it gets to the fight if he too has prepared than he stands a better chance.

Now I am not going to say a fighter can beat a wizard (we all know this debate it would be dumb to derail this thread for that) however that is only because a lot of the options for a wizard is made easy by simply having them spelled out in a single spell.

Want to grapple well? Black tentacles
Want to hide well? Invisibility
Want to learn something about someone without meeting them? Scry
ect

but for many of these they can be done without being a wizard they are just not as easily done or have as many things on the same character (the above examples took 3 spells but may take 2+ characters)

Grapple? well built fighter
Hide? Rogue with max hide and item selection
Learn things? Gather info and some RPing

What ToB does in my eyes is allow some things to be simply spelled out for the fighter so they do not need to jump through hoops to get what they need. What this thread seems to want is just that, a simple way to jump through the hoops

What feat?

the feat of jumping 200' (as non magical but a normal "martial" thing)

[PhoenixRivers]

regen = devout spirit healing maneuvers

Incorrect. Wolverine can take a bullet to his brain, get thrown through a wood chipper, and then incinerated in a furnace. While he is out? He'll heal. He has Regeneration, or at the very least, a very high Fast Healing.

blindsight = hear the air

That's blindsense. Not blindsight. Which means that now daredevil misses what he's aiming at half the time. 1/4 with blindfighting.

Nope, that's not daredevil either. Have you actually read the comics you describe?

of course I am not going to list them all (and it is broken all the time)



I am sorry it is a little blunt, let me clarify. A non tailored game of DnD where even the basics (i.e.) phb is available is not meant for you.

Indeed the more basic you get the less viable the fighter gets....

And your solution? Fiat until you have Fighter McStabby, the psychic instrument of DM Fiat, who always has the perfect trap set.

When the fighter needs that to compete? He's not competing. The style of play you describe is how highly intelligent characters with the ability to divine the future act. In other words? Wizards.

Also here is a rather ironic twist. A fighter expects to be able to walk into a fight and win without preparation? But a wizard is expected to have scryed 10 times, communed 3 times, set up contingencies, summoned a few friends and than tailored a list for an encounter. Thus the reason they win? But why can the fighter not do the same thing? Indeed for him it is harder to do since it requires more effort, a little more gold and some RPing (we wouldn't want that would we) but when it gets to the fight if he too has prepared than he stands a better chance.

Oh, that's simple. The wizard has a primary stat of intelligence, and class features which directly contribute to that.

Fighter? He needs UMD, half his WBL on scrolls, and DM Fiat by generous roleplaying help, to even begin to approach what a wizard can do with a good night's sleep, an hour of preparation, and a couple rounds of casting. Then the wizard, who didn't waste tons of gold on trying to copy another class, can use his WBL to augment his class features.

See where this is going? No amount of "RP" will discover mechanical solutions without mechanical answers... or Fiat. If the DM wants to say, "why yes, Fighty McStabby, since you asked around so well, and had such a good plan, here you go, have this information", that's fine. That's also Fiat. The DM without fiat would say, "Make a gather information check, with a +2 circumstance bonus for a good plan."

Now I am not going to say a fighter can beat a wizard (we all know this debate it would be dumb to derail this thread for that) however that is only because a lot of the options for a wizard is made easy by simply having them spelled out in a single spell.

There are over 600 spells in the Player's handbook alone. All the options are in a single spell?

Want to grapple well? Black tentacles
Want to hide well? Invisibility
Want to learn something about someone without meeting them? Scry
ect

but for many of these they can be done without being a wizard they are just not as easily done or have as many things on the same character (the above examples took 3 spells but may take 2+ characters)

Exactly. That is why a fighter is flat out inferior as exists. He can try as hard as he possibly can, devote crazy resources to a singular task... And then a caster will surpass him in that task with 2 spells.

Grapple? well built fighter

Well built fighters can't grapple against freedom of movement.

Hide? Rogue with max hide and item selection

Which will fail against blindsight, touchsight, mindsight, etc.

Learn things? Gather info and some RPing

Which will not gather any info, and isn't always available. For example, if we're going RPing? Let's say you're on a time crunch. Do you have the HOURS that Gather info takes?

It's not just that a wizard can do what the other classes do. In most cases, the wizard does them BETTER than the specialist. Which is why mundane isn't ever going to match up without a rebuild. You can't make most heroes with mundane only.

What ToB does in my eyes is allow some things to be simply spelled out for the fighter so they do not need to jump through hoops to get what they need. What this thread seems to want is just that, a simple way to jump through the hoops

Except that it doesn't.

It allows inferior things to be spelled out for the fighter, so that he has more ways to be inferior. ToB does not allow for the OP's idea to make fighters more like the Hulk.

The OP asked for a Harley, and you're offering him a Power Wheels.

[Morty]

I think people are approaching it from a wrong direction. If we want mundane people to be able to beat magic users, then perhaps it's magic users who need to be less ridiculously omnipotent. Otherwise, the attempts to bring the "mundane" characters to their level quickly become magic by any other name.

[PhoenixRivers]

I think people are approaching it from a wrong direction. If we want mundane people to be able to beat magic users, then perhaps it's magic users who need to be less ridiculously omnipotent. Otherwise, the attempts to bring the "mundane" characters to their level quickly become magic by any other name.

On the other hand, if magic is nerfed too much, it's mundane.

[crazedloon]

Incorrect. Wolverine can take a bullet to his brain, get thrown through a wood chipper, and then incinerated in a furnace. While he is out? He'll heal. He has Regeneration, or at the very least, a very high Fast Healing.

That's blindsense. Not blindsight. Which means that now daredevil misses what he's aiming at half the time. 1/4 with blindfighting.

Nope, that's not daredevil either. Have you actually read the comics you describe?

wow you seem very defensive of me attempting to place a rather broad example to a few character... yes there are better ways to represent their abilities in DnD I am sorry for not doing it Wo is me?

And your solution? Fiat until you have Fighter McStabby, the psychic instrument of DM Fiat, who always has the perfect trap set.

When the fighter needs that to compete? He's not competing. The style of play you describe is how highly intelligent characters with the ability to divine the future act. In other words? Wizards.

ok this is just not thought out and a poor argument.... You seem to think a highly intelligent character must be a wizard. This is not true at all, many of the worlds great minds were not scientists or mathematicians (RL equivalents to wizards) but were generals and warriors.

He is not divining the future he is just asking the correct NPCs the correct questions. Having PC NPC interaction that does not involve hack and slash is not fiat, that is called Role playing and that is what this game is about. You are playing a game which expects the characters to move around a world and interact with said world, not just sit in one place until the wizard is done talking to the DM for an hour, telporting and killing a target. If you want to play that sort of game than you are Roll playing and of course a fighter will never have a role in that game.

Fighter? He needs UMD, half his WBL on scrolls, and DM Fiat by generous roleplaying help, to even begin to approach what a wizard can do with a good night's sleep, an hour of preparation, and a couple rounds of casting. Then the wizard, who didn't waste tons of gold on trying to copy another class, can use his WBL to augment his class features.

ok again talking to NPCs to find out things is not Fiat that is part of the game.....
Also this is not a **** measuring contest between the fighter and a wizard and you play in groups for a reason (i.e. to cover eachothers weaknesses) so yay a wizard can help the fighter by doing those things which cost money while the Fighter talks to NPCs or progresses the plot.

See where this is going? No amount of "RP" will discover mechanical solutions without mechanical answers... or Fiat. If the DM wants to say, "why yes, Fighty McStabby, since you asked around so well, and had such a good plan, here you go, have this information", that's fine. That's also Fiat. The DM without fiat would say, "Make a gather information check, with a +2 circumstance bonus for a good plan."

that is not Fiat that is how the game works....
If you go to the corner store and ask the desk clerk how to get to the next corner store and he tells you, that is not DM fiat that is how people act. This is a game which emulates life. If your DM does not reward Role-playing than once again you are Roll-playing which is a different beast entirely

and your example is fiat because the DM has made an arbitrary addition to your Gather info check. Which actually shows me quite clearly that you Roll-play

Well built fighters can't grapple against freedom of movement.

but he can when his group wizard cast dispell magic on the freedom of movement (once again a team game)

Which will fail against blindsight, touchsight, mindsight, etc.

darkstalker will stop all but mindsight and touchsight, the later of which can be dealt with by dispel psionics (from local wizard/psion)

mindsight is a rather specific feat which means your DM has decided he would like other options to be the way around or through the encounter.

Which will not gather any info, and isn't always available. For example, if we're going RPing? Let's say you're on a time crunch. Do you have the HOURS that Gather info takes?

Hours only if you want to Roll play it. Most DMs who enjoy Role playing will allow a short NPC conversation to give useful info without an actual test. Most cliche games start this way, stranger walks into tavern sees group gives them quest. Congratulations you just did a gather info check without the role and without hours to get the info.

It allows inferior things to be spelled out for the fighter, so that he has more ways to be inferior. ToB does not allow for the OP's idea to make fighters more like the Hulk.

The OP asked for a Harley, and you're offering him a Power Wheels.

yes it does, he want to attack like a Gatling gun there are plenty of build which abuse the many attacks given by certain maneuvers combined with extra full round action and more.

you want to throw heavy things grab hulking hurler (not ToB but it was one of the tings hulk does)

you want to cause earthquakes and throw people away from you, all those can be done via ToB just add a little flavor change (there are maneuvers which do effects similar if not exactly like the above powers)

On the other hand, if magic is nerfed too much, it's mundane.

what is your definition of mundane?

[Morty]

On the other hand, if magic is nerfed too much, it's mundane.

That may be, but even if it's true - which I'd personally argue - high-level D&D magic has a long way to go before it becomes mundane.

[Runestar]

When I think of epic fighters (and warblades by that extension), Hulk doesn't come to mind. Rather, more of wuxia-style fighting.

Granted, I admit to picking up ToB only after I read this comic, which is why I fell in love with ToB immediately.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/the_celestial_zone_i/

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/the_ce...10/c040/6.html

[Philistine]

I think that there is nothing wrong with stretching reality, as long as there is no magic.

e.g. moving very very very fast, leaping into the air 200ft? fine. Making your sword have FIRE! no.

I find this amusing, because a flaming sword is actually possible (though impractical) in the mundane world, whereas a human jumping 200' into the air is not. Plus - someone who calls himself "merlin" is saying "don't use magic"? Oh, the irony.

On the other hand, if magic is nerfed too much, it's mundane.

How do you figure that? If anything, I'd say that adding any kind of meaningful difficulty or drawbacks to the process of creating radical, reality-warping effects would make magic less mundane. Adding some sort of price or problem associated with the use of magic - such that it's no longer obviously the best answer for everything - ought to make it more special, not less, when it's actually used.

Plus, it'd go some way toward creating a balance between ZOMGCASTERS!!11!!11!!1!!!!!!11111 and the poor, pitiful melee types. (Not "restoring" a balance, because you cannot restore something that never existed.)

[Foryn Gilnith]

Somebody earlier mentioned Captain America. According to Wikipedia, these are his powers, as far as I can tell...

Immune to alcohol (poison immunity/resistance, in D&D)
Immune to many diseases
Expert tactician
Excellent field commander
Good reflexes
Good senses
Martial artist (incorporates gymnastics)
Mastery of his weapon
Immune to hypnosis (through "focus", according to the article)

Warblade can hit several of these points, though not quite all. White Raven for tactics (field command has to come more from the player, unless the skill system for that becomes more developed). Diamond Mind for reflexes, senses (Hearing the Air), and resistance to mind-affecting effects (probably the poison/disease thing too, since Concentration scales faster than Fortitude). Add some more focus on the Weapon Aptitude-type abilities and a fighter has Captain America-level weapon expertise.

All that's left is the magic items and the gymnastics (which are frustratingly difficult to reach as a Warblade, given the demands of the skill system), and we've hit all of Captain America's powers. There's quite a bit more to Captain America than what's listed on this minor section of Wikipedia, of course, but it's a start.

[Runestar]

Plus, it'd go some way toward creating a balance between ZOMGCASTERS!!11!!11!!1!!!!!!11111 and the poor, pitiful melee types. (Not "restoring" a balance, because you cannot restore something that never existed.)

What do you think ToB has been trying to do? Exactly that - make melee fun again.

I find this amusing, because a flaming sword is actually possible (though impractical) in the mundane world, whereas a human jumping 200' into the air is not.

Jumping that high is not impossible, if we continue to extrapolate the existing skill checks. For example, with a high enough skill check, a rogue can stand on air without the aid of magic or even squeeze through a wall of force. So I suppose a fighter could jump that high by using the air around him as a sort of staircase and leapfrogging from one block to the next.

[JeminiZero]

-Racial templates: The hulk (his abilities do not come from training but inborn power)
-Acquired Templates: The Juggernaut (demons are awesome)

Nitpick: The Hulk is also using an Acquired Template, one which he shares (to some extent) with the Abomination.

If you ask me this is the problem with most fighters. They expect to win with a sharp stick. That is not how a fighter wins he does it with his head first. You are in a world with vastly superior beings, use your head and get some tricks whether it be the trap set hours before the combat or some magic items. Also friends help (i.e. this is a group game)

Also here is a rather ironic twist. A fighter expects to be able to walk into a fight and win without preparation? But a wizard is expected to have scryed 10 times, communed 3 times, set up contingencies, summoned a few friends and than tailored a list for an encounter. Thus the reason they win?

But why can the fighter not do the same thing? Indeed for him it is harder to do since it requires more effort, a little more gold and some RPing (we wouldn't want that would we) but when it gets to the fight if he too has prepared than he stands a better chance.

Actually, in practical play, the Wizard generally expects to win with a similiar amount of preparation as the Warrior. Wizards more often than not, get by using a handful of favorite tricks that work against most enemies, without necessarily preparing anything specific (e.g. Batman uses Battlefield Control, Cindy/Mailman hurls Orbs.). An approach similiar to Warriors, albeit far more effective.

In fact, given the same amount of information, a Wizard can prepare better, since he can change spells like he changes clothes. Whereas the Warrior (and the Sorcerer) are stuck stockpiling approrpiate items.

He is not divining the future he is just asking the correct NPCs the correct questions. Having PC NPC interaction that does not involve hack and slash is not fiat, that is called Role playing and that is what this game is about. You are playing a game which expects the characters to move around a world and interact with said world, not just sit in one place until the wizard is done talking to the DM for an hour, telporting and killing a target. If you want to play that sort of game than you are Roll playing and of course a fighter will never have a role in that game.

Also this is not a **** measuring contest between the fighter and a wizard and you play in groups for a reason (i.e. to cover eachothers weaknesses) so yay a wizard can help the fighter by doing those things which cost money while the Fighter talks to NPCs or progresses the plot.

The problem however is that ANYONE can plan and prepare like that (discounting for the moment those RPing mindless brutes like the Hulk, or social outcasts like... er... can't think of a Marvel example).

To further elaborate, imagine for a moment that the Wizard didn't have the fighter. The wizard could just as well make the gather information checks himself. Or he could send his planar bound Succubus to do it. The fighter in this case is not doing anything special. He's essentially acting like the Party Secretary, handling the Wizard's fight schedule and all.

than you have your simple fighter
The Captain. What can he do?
-he is stronger, faster, smarter than a normal human (heroic stats)
-he knows a lot of combat maneuvers (feats)
-he knows a few special tricks (ToB feats picked up)

But really as fighters in DnD when it comes down to it he is really really weak. He can beat low tier (power wise) supers through smart planning and use of the field of combat (which comes down to a player thinking about combat) not abilities (which you are attempting to emulate)

For practical gameplay, comparison between classes tends to assume similiar background conditions i.e. similiar amounts of preparation. So while the Fighter might* be able to beat a high level Wizard in a planned ambush, he probably won't fare so well in a straight fight. And it is the straight fight which comes up more often that not.

*Assuming the Fighter hits the correct Wizard amongst his multlple mirror images, and manages to roll 20's repeatedly while using a Vorpal Weapon, in a manner that doesn't trigger the Wizard's badly worded contingencies.

what is your definition of mundane?

This is in fact the very question this thread is trying to pose. Lets assume for the moment someone homebrewed a D&D base class version of the Incredible Hulk. Does this Hulk-Warrior's ability to jump 200+ ft in the air, and throw mountains at enemies stop being mundane, even if such acts were done without magic?

[Prodan]

Personally the main reason I dislike the way things like ToB work is that alot of the stances and whatnot (I'm not actually familiar with the system, since I just find it conceptually distasteful. As such my knowledge comes mostly from playing alongside them in PbP)

Wouldn't your opinion be better if you actually learned about the system?

don't seem to have much of a connection between what they're doing and what happens as a result. (i.e., Take pose X, now target Y is easier to hit by EVERYONE.)

Assassin's stance gives you sneak attack. Works for me.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Wouldn't your opinion be better if you actually learned about the system?

Yes, but the conceptual flaws of Tome of Battle are relevant. Damned wuxia feel has made it obscenely difficult for me to sell the book to some people.

[Panigg]

If you want a melee that can keep up with a caster, just get a couple levels of ToB classes. That usually does the trick.

[Prodan]

Yes, but the conceptual flaws of Tome of Battle are relevant. Damned wuxia feel has made it obscenely difficult for me to sell the book to some people.

This is where you copy+paste the mechanics of ToB, refluff the classes and maneuvers, and sit back and enjoy the praise people give you for making such a great product.