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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Greenish's Avatar

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    Default Building a bully. [3.5]

    Influenced by the many threads around lately with discussion on fighter's social interaction skills (or lack of thereof) and of building a character with both social skills and combat potency, an idea about intimidating thug has been rolling around my head. This is an attempt to get it out.

    Build:
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    Race: Goliath*
    Attributes at level 1 (+racial adjustment) STR: 14 (+4) DEX: 14 (-2) CON: 14 (+2) INT: 14 WIS: 10 CHA: 14
    traits: illiterate (+1 to intimidate), abrasive (+1 to intimidate, -1 to diplomacy and bluff)
    flaws: poor reflexes, vulnerable
    Multi-classing penalties not enforced.

    For simplicity's sake, LA and the buyout are not on the table.
    {TABLE]ECL|class level|feats & special abilities
    1|fighter 1|thug variant, Power Attack (flaw), Improved Bull Rush (flaw), Nymph's Kiss
    2|fighter 2|dungeon crasher AFC
    3|fighter 3|zhentarim soldier AFC: Skill Focus: Intimidate
    4|fighter 4|Knockback
    5|fighter 5|zhentarim soldier AFC: Extended Intimidation, (Never Outnumbered skill trick)
    6|fighter 6|improved dungeon crasher AFC, Imperious Command
    7|fighter 7|
    8|fighter 8|Shock Trooper
    9|fighter 9|Zhentarim soldier AFC: Swift demoralization, Combat Reflexes
    10|fighter 10|Hold The Line
    11|barbarian 1|pounce (spirit lion totem AFC), rage (Whirling Frenzy AFC)
    12|barbarian 2|Improved Trip (wolf totem AFC), Intimidating Rage
    13|marshal 1|minor aura: motivate charisma, Skill Focus: Diplomacy (marshal bonus)
    14|cleric** 1|Travel Devotion (traded from Travel domain), magic domain granted power
    15|something|Knock-down[/TABLE]

    *Does Powerful Build gives the bonus to Intimidate? By my reading, it should.
    **The cleric level is there because I was running low on ideas, and also because at those levels you can't always rely on being able to intimidate or bull rush enemies.
    As you can see, the build is just a rough draft and stops at level 15. I'm open to suggestions on how to proceed and/or improve the build. The build gets a few feats (namely Combat Reflexes and Knock-down) later than I'd prefer, and misses some non-essential but potentially useful stuff such as Urban Tracking. I'd also love to get Dreadful Wrath, but alas goliaths don't qualify.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2010-05-17 at 06:58 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Building a bully. [3.5]

    I seem to recall a way to apply your str mod to intimidate. Some sort of half-orc barb substitution or something?

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Greenish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Building a bully. [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    I seem to recall a way to apply your str mod to intimidate. Some sort of half-orc barb substitution or something?
    Hmm, I only know of the feat that allows you to use strength instead of charisma for Leadership, and X stat to Y bonus thread fail to mention anything of the sort too.

    Meh, you need 15 Cha for Imperious Command anyway. Maybe I should go to crusader after level 14 to get more mileage of my charisma.
    Quotes:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Building a bully. [3.5]

    Might Makes Right.
    Iron Chef in the Playground veteran since Round IV. Play as me!


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    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Building a bully. [3.5]

    Found it - barb7: fearsome gaze variant from dragon 349, intimidate is str-based and you get a +4 bonus on foes within 60-ft of you.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Building a bully. [3.5]

    Only use Goliath if you can buy off the level adjustment. Definitely get Dreadful Wrath at level 1, it's totally worth making the entire encounter already shaken so your Intimidate checks put them into Frightened. Plus I seriously doubt a bully is going to be able to have Nymph's Kiss. Your 6th level feat needs to be Imperious Command, especially since it can't be taken as a Fighter bonus feat.

    If you can get Jotunbrud to qualify you for Knockback, it's probably worth going Human or any other qualifying Humanoid (Human) race instead of eating a level adjustment for Goliath. If you can get the half-human races variant from the sidebar on page 150 of Races of Destiny to allow a Half-Orc to be Humanoid (Orc, Human) and thus qualify for Jotunbrud, it's probably worth using that and visiting the Otyugh Hole to get Menacing Demeanor (+4 Intimidate). It would also be worth getting Half-Orc Paragon for at least one level for yet another +4 Intimidate.

    I'd go either Fighter 9/ War Hulk 10/ whatever, or Barbarian 2/ Fighter 9/ Exotic Weapon Master 3/ whatever, or maybe Fighter 9/ Exotic Weapon Master 2/ Fighter 9 for Weapon Supremacy. Your Exotic Weapon Master abilities should be Uncanny Blow and Show Off, and Trip Attack if you have Barbarian. Maybe splash a few Warblade levels into one or more of those to get some choice maneuvers and useful stances. Ideally you should be using a Kaorti Resin Scimitar (18-20/x4) two-handed with Uncanny Blow, but a Greathorn Minotaur Greathammer (MMIV, 1d12 medium, 19-20/x4) will work if you don't have Uncanny Blow yet, especially if you have Warblade and can switch your EWP to another weapon.

    If you're going to use Barbarian you may as well take it as early as possible, especially for the better level 1 skill points. Be sure to use Whirling Frenzy instead of the standard Rage. Extra Rage is highly recommended, and Intimidating Rage can even be put to use. Knockback plus Knock-Down offers a ton of survivability in the early levels, since they'll have to spend a move action to get up from prone and another move action to get back into melee, thus spending a round not making any attacks.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Greenish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Building a bully. [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Might Makes Right.
    Yes, that's what I referred to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Runestar View Post
    Found it - barb7: fearsome gaze variant from dragon 349, intimidate is str-based and you get a +4 bonus on foes within 60-ft of you.
    Hmm, barb 7 comes very late to the build if you want to get the 9th level fighter substitution too. I'm not too thrilled about going half-orc either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chimera

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    Default Re: Building a bully. [3.5]

    Hmm, barb 7 comes very late to the build if you want to get the 9th level fighter substitution too. I'm not too thrilled about going half-orc either.
    It is a class sub, not a racial one (my bad on that), so you don't have to go half-orc (but why not, since cha is no longer that useful). I agree that barb7 is quite a long way off, especially when you want fighter9 ASAP for swift intimidates.

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Greenish's Avatar

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    Default Re: Building a bully. [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Only use Goliath if you can buy off the level adjustment.
    Well, it's not that bad. I'm not planning to rely solely on Intimidate, and it makes dungeon crashing easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Definitely get Dreadful Wrath at level 1, it's totally worth making the entire encounter already shaken so your Intimidate checks put them into Frightened.
    I would, but goliaths don't qualify, and as I said I don't want to be entirely reliant on Intimidate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Plus I seriously doubt a bully is going to be able to have Nymph's Kiss.
    True enough, but I was thinking that "bully" would mostly describe the fighting style, pushing people around and intimidating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Your 6th level feat needs to be Imperious Command, especially since it can't be taken as a Fighter bonus feat.
    Good catch, I'll fix that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    If you can get Jotunbrud to qualify you for Knockback, it's probably worth going Human or any other qualifying Humanoid (Human) race instead of eating a level adjustment for Goliath.
    Meh, I'm not big on humans, and Jotunbrud would eat the extra feat. This is assuming LA buyout is allowed, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    If you can get the half-human races variant from the sidebar on page 150 of Races of Destiny to allow a Half-Orc to be Humanoid (Orc, Human) and thus qualify for Jotunbrud, it's probably worth using that and visiting the Otyugh Hole to get Menacing Demeanor (+4 Intimidate).
    Half-orc gets rather poor stats and no bonus feat. It hits both Cha and Int (for skill points) nastily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    I'd go either Fighter 9/ War Hulk 10/ whatever, or Barbarian 2/ Fighter 9/ Exotic Weapon Master 3/ whatever, or maybe Fighter 9/ Exotic Weapon Master 2/ Fighter 9 for Weapon Supremacy. Your Exotic Weapon Master abilities should be Uncanny Blow and Show Off, and Trip Attack if you have Barbarian.
    I'll look into it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Maybe splash a few Warblade levels into one or more of those to get some choice maneuvers and useful stances.
    Wouldn't Crusader be better for Cha to Will saves?
    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    If you're going to use Barbarian you may as well take it as early as possible, especially for the better level 1 skill points.
    Thug variant fighters get 4+int skill points per level like barbarians. The build starts with a fighter to get to Swift Intimidate when Intimidate is still relevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Be sure to use Whirling Frenzy instead of the standard Rage.
    Obviously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Obviously.Extra Rage is highly recommended, and Intimidating Rage can even be put to use.
    I have Intimidating Rage there, and I'll have to try to fit Extra Rage in at some point too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Knockback plus Knock-Down offers a ton of survivability in the early levels, since they'll have to spend a move action to get up from prone and another move action to get back into melee, thus spending a round not making any attacks.
    Yeah, if I could get Knock-down earlier I'd love to, but half-orc with Jotunbrud would set me yet another feat back.
    Last edited by Greenish; 2010-05-17 at 06:44 AM.
    Quotes:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Claudius Maximus View Post
    Also fixed the money issue by sacrificing a goat.
    Quote Originally Posted by subject42 View Post
    This board needs a "you're technically right but I still want to crawl into the fetal position and cry" emoticon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yukitsu View Post
    I define [optimization] as "the process by which one attains a build meeting all mechanical and characterization goals set out by the creator prior to its creation."
    Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.

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