help me optimize a silver dragon.

[Mystic Muse]

I'm taking the Dragon cohort feat and getting a Silver dragon. I'm using this homebrew version. My DM has pushed the growth up to level 5 and the paralyzing breath up to level 10. I also asked him and I can't use it as a Paladin mount. He will be starting at level 5 and I have to use 32 point buy. He gets standard WBL and max HP. Our characters are going to be level 10 after one more fight so he has to be able to live in a level 10 party. Our party consists of a homebrew Human Paladin, a Half orc Monk and an elven Ranger (not sure if the Druid Multi-classed to Ranger or remade her character. Not even sure if I need to optimize him really.)

I'd like to build him as a gish if Possible.

[PinkysBrain]

I assume you mean he has pushed growth down to level 5. His to hit bonus is atrocious ... with only +5 BAB and -1 size modifier.

Optimizing his breath weapon and spellcasting makes more sense than melee gish, even with max hitpoints he will be rather fragile.

[Mystic Muse]

I assume you mean he has pushed growth down to level 5. His to hit bonus is atrocious ... with only +5 BAB and -1 size modifier.

Optimizing his breath weapon and spellcasting makes more sense than melee gish, even with max hitpoints he will be rather fragile.

yeah, that's what I meant. So, any suggestions for how to optimize his breath weapon/spellcasting? I'm pretty sure I know which spells to choose. Not sure about metamagic feats or anything like that though.

[demidracolich]

Metabreath feats from draconomicon for breath weapon and also check in dragon magic and races of the dragon.

[katans]

Yup, Metabreath feats are the way to go. Entangling Breath is a must-have.

[Mystic Muse]

I can't seem to find entangling breath.

Also, are there any limitations the DM has imposed that if taken away could make him a lot more effective?

[Jarian]

Entangling Exhalation is in Races of the Dragon.

Clinging Breath is in the Draconomicon.

Lingering Breath is in the Draconomicon.

Use all three for hilarity.

[Mystic Muse]

Entangling Exhalation is in Races of the Dragon.

Clinging Breath is in the Draconomicon.

Lingering Breath is in the Draconomicon.

Use all three for hilarity.

The only problem I can see with this is that I have to wait four to seven rounds before this works againand since he's level 5 he only get two feats.

[nargbop]

Ah! The old Feats Wishlist, wherein you already know what feats you want in the future. I love Feats Wishlists.
Take Entangling Breath first.

[Jarian]

Since there's technically no limit to how long you can make the breath cling/linger, just make it last, say... three minutes?

Unless you plan on having fights more often than once every six minutes.

After that, just fly around and laugh as everything freezes to death very, very slowly.

[Mystic Muse]

Since there's technically no limit to how long you can make the breath cling/linger, just make it last, say... three minutes?

Unless you plan on having fights more often than once every six minutes.

After that, just fly around and laugh as everything freezes to death very, very slowly.

Won't this kind of make the other players irrelevant in the fight?

[Jarian]

"Hi guys, I just entangled everything for you so it's easier for you to hit them, and harder for them to get away from you. Oh, and they'll take some damage every round too, so it'll go faster. I'll be up here watching for an ambush, just in case."

Replace "watching for an ambush" with "using UMD" if you go that route.

[Mystic Muse]

"Hi guys, I just entangled everything for you so it's easier for you to hit them, and harder for them to get away from you. Oh, and they'll take some damage every round too, so it'll go faster. I'll be up here watching for an ambush, just in case."

unfortunately, neither them nor the DM are going to like that. =/

Also, it would be kind of hypocritical to do this when I just told the DM that the encounters have been too easy.

[Jarian]

Then just use entangling exhalation.

Edit: The author of that Dragon class seems to have failed to include UMD on the class skill list. You should return it as faulty (read: explain to your DM that dragons use magic items all the time, and it doesn't make sense not to have UMD)

Then make use of wands and such.

[Mystic Muse]

My DM has a rule that all skills are class skills anyway so him not having UMD doesn't really matter.

And considering the amount of restrictions the guy has on him I don't think I'll be using him. Thanks anyway but I can't use him effectively until he gains a couple of levels.

[PinkysBrain]

Also, are there any limitations the DM has imposed that if taken away could make him a lot more effective?

Strictly speaking the homebrew is a monster class with +0 LA ... your DM is giving him LA. At level 10 your cohort should be ECL 7, not ECL 5. That said, leadership is a gimme feat which is not in proportion to the character investment ... so meh.

Really if you want the dragon to be a gish it would work better if the dragon was the PC and your current character was it's cohort :)

[Mystic Muse]

I was actually taking Dragon cohort not leadership. And I have complained about the level loss several times.

[demidracolich]

If not for the level loss it could be ecl 11 because it counts as ECL 3 lower, I have a 15th level binder with a ECL 16 radiant dragon rogue cohort.

[Mystic Muse]

If not for the level loss it could be ecl 11 because it counts as ECL 3 lower, I have a 15th level binder with a ECL 16 radiant dragon rogue cohort.

Isn't the rule that your cohort can only be your level -2 in ECL? Or does that not apply to Dragon cohorts?

[The Cat Goddess]

From the MM 1:

Skills: All dragons have skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) × (Hit Dice + 3). Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Listen, Search, and Spot. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered class skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)
Skills: Bluff, Disguise, and Jump are considered class skills for
silver dragons.

If you're going to create a Dragon, it's advancement should be as the MM says.

[Mystic Muse]

Right now I'm more concerned about what the ECL of my dragon should be. According to Demidracolich it's 11 but I would have thought 7 since I'll only be level 9

[PinkysBrain]

The Dragon Cohort feat is essentially a tacit agreement by it's creator that monster ECL is insane, he mounted his own little resistance by carving out a niche where it's a little more sane.

If you replace the normal dragons from the Dragon Cohort list with a Dragon Monster class which doesn't come with ridiculous LAs in the first place though, such as the linked homebrew, the Dragon Cohort feat's justification disappears as well.

[Mystic Muse]

The Dragon Cohort feat is essentially a tacit agreement by it's creator that monster ECL is insane, he mounted his own little resistance by carving out a niche where it's a little more sane.

If you replace the normal dragons from the Dragon Cohort list with a Dragon Monster class which doesn't come with ridiculous LAs in the first place though, such as the linked homebrew, the Dragon Cohort feat's justification disappears as well.

which still doesn't answer my question. Would using the Dragon cohort feat allow your cohort to be ECL 11 when you're ECL 9?

[demidracolich]

For dragon cohort it sepcifically says the ECl counts as 3 lower, and no an ECL 9 could get an ECL10 cohort but not ECL 11. Normally _2 but treated as 3 lower so +3 adn equals 1 ECl higher than you.

[The Blackbird]

I've always found improved initative and power attack basic must haves for dragons.

[demidracolich]

Then plan is not for the dragon to be melee due to it being really low leveled compared to the party and having a size penalty. Improved initiative sure but it won't be able to hit anything with power attack.

[PinkysBrain]

which still doesn't answer my question. Would using the Dragon cohort feat allow your cohort to be ECL 11 when you're ECL 9?

ECL 10, but only if you select your cohort from the table in the Draconomicon (potentially with extra class levels). It doesn't apply to random critter with Dragon type.

[The Blackbird]

Then plan is not for the dragon to be melee due to it being really low leveled compared to the party and having a size penalty. Improved initiative sure but it won't be able to hit anything with power attack.

Eh? I thought he wanted a gish, he could take wraithstrike or something and then power attack. But I still see the logic, okay, keep improved initative take off power attack.

[Mystic Muse]

ECL 10, but only if you select your cohort from the table in the Draconomicon (potentially with extra class levels). It doesn't apply to random critter with Dragon type.

okay. Thank you.

EDIT: unless somebody can convince me otherwise I'm going to use a cohort from Draconomicon instead.

[demidracolich]

they have more LA but are fine, the one I have works just find. Also, random interesting point, me and my friends were thinking of renaming it Yorick because it is expendable and at one time was brought down to about 60HP from 198(partially because it was caught in my whirlwind breath and triggered firey retribution because it was a rogue) so we could say "Alas poor Yorick, we hardly knew you."
Also if the cohort dies you can get another one.