Puzzles - Your favorites and how to use them!

[EccentricOwl]

I -love- puzzles. One of my favorite part in any RPG is the puzzle element.

For example, even simple ones tickle my fancy. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic had a favorite of mine. Essentially, you had two cups (3 gallon and 5 gallon) and you needed to fill up one with exactly 4 gallons.


But that's one simple example. Puzzles really bring games to life and let players who normally aren't very talkative sit down and do some role-playing - as well as have some catharsis when they finally figure out the puzzle.


What are some of your -FAVORITE- puzzles ? They can be puzzles you created, they can be out of other games (such as, say, Resident Evil) or they can be puzzles other have come up with.

Please, give a decent description of more complicated puzzles so they can be re-used and repeated by other readers!





1. "Two Switch" Puzzle- Altair
2. Light & Mirrors - originally from Penny Arcade
3. Shifting Stone Walls - Irreverent Fool
4. Tracing Puzzle- DonEsteban
5. Actual Jigsaw Puzzles
6. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153021 - Valadil
7. Numerical Puzzles - Valadil
8. Big Red Button Fake-Out - TheThan
9. Impressive Fire Maze - Sipex
10. A Trio of Short Puzzles - kestrel404
11. Thread-Derailing Three Doors Puzzle - Lev
12. "Just use a code!" - DonEsteban
13. Oldimarra's Ironic Gold - Starscream
14. 3-Color Puzzle - Lev
15. Not sure how to describe it - LordHenry 4000
16. ACTUALLY WORKING tracing puzzle- donesteban.
17. Deadbolts & Mirrors- DonEsteban
18. Riddles - AvatarZero
19. Paint A Door- flabort
20. Yes-or-No Door - ChrisFortyTwo
21. The Door that Just Wanted a Joke - ChrisFortyTwo
22. Fake-Out Potions - RainbowNaga
23. Slow-Burning Fuses - DonEseteban
24. Dr. McNinja's Tennis Island Laser Eye State - (Chris Hastings presented by TheEmerged)
25. Sphinx Riddle - Bharg
26. Three Guards - (Didn't they actually do that one in OOTS?)

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I made a very simple puzzle in a game, which I'm quite pleased with, and which confused the players for just enough time to be entertaining.

Essentially, there were two switches, which started timers to unlock secret doors deeper into the dungeon.
All the puzzle comprised of was realising that the secret door you've just found can't be opened here, and that the (seemingly) pointless mechanism you found earlier will unlock it.

What I'm pleased about was that it fitted in with the dungeon theme, and that it made sense.
So many puzzles in games seem to be just there to be puzzles, with no real rationale behind them, in-game.

[Irreverent Fool]

The best puzzles in D&D, I think, are those like what Altair mentioned. Ideally the puzzle keeps the players involved in the game and keeps them playing in-character, rather than suddenly presenting them with an unrelated logic challenge. I warn from experience, those puzzles that work in single-player games do not always work in a multi-person D&D group. Often times those disinclined toward puzzle-solving will sit bored while others figure it out. Also, the DM is left with little to do if the puzzle is meant to be a checkpoint.

This puzzle was pretty inspiring. The DM did a good job of allowing the players to solve it in a way other than what he had envisioned. This sort of thing usually makes the players feel clever and have more fun.

In a game I played in some time ago, there were a series of doors that could only be opened in certain combinations. One had to move into the gap between the next series of doors in order to figure out the combination and obvious errors resulted in spikes jutting from the floor in the enclosed room. Meanwhile, around the party the Evil Temple of Evil(tm) was collapsing, adding pressure to solve the puzzle. Invisibility on the intervening doors allowed us to figure out the pattern without sacrificing anyone (except the character my character had been trying to murder for the whole campaign).

If you can find them, the Traps & Treachery books have a number of devious traps that could be adapted to this purpose. I also recommend The Book of Challenges. It's not all gold, but I'm sure you can find some inspiration there.

obnoxious
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[DonEsteban]

I -love- puzzles. One of my favorite part in any RPG is the puzzle element.

So do I, but, amazingly, this does not seem to hold for the majority of roleplayers. One kind of puzzle our DM had for us was to outline a rune with your finger (or pencil) in one go, touching every edge exactly once. -- And BOOM! if you make a mistake.

Like this one:

[valadil]

So do I, but, amazingly, this does not seem to hold for the majority of roleplayers. One kind of puzzle our DM had for us was to outline a rune with your finger (or pencil) in one go, touching every edge exactly once. -- And BOOM! if you make a mistake.

Like this one:

That's a cool type of puzzle. I need to remember to use those.

There are two things I look for in a puzzle. The first is that they make sense in the game world. A wizard did it only works so many times for me.

For example, one puzzle I plan on running the next time I run a modern game is an actual jigsaw puzzle. The players will be tracking someone down and they'll get access to the guy's computer. Most of his transmissions were done over ssl and therefore encrypted, but his browser's image cache will be available. What's useful in the image cache? Google maps. And the way google does their maps involves cutting the map into many, many smallish pictures that load one at a time. The players will have to sort those into a map to find the NPC's location. This puzzle fits perfectly in the game world and won't break suspense at all.

The other quality I look for in puzzles is a little harder to explain. I like puzzles with lots of little clues. What happens all too often is that the GM will describe a puzzle or riddle and the players will sit there for 5-30 minutes. Then a player has a single epiphany and the puzzle is beaten. That's no good. I want there to be epiphanies, but no one of them can win. Instead they let you work down other portions of the puzzle. I think my logic problem does that successfully. I prefer this type of puzzle because the players have more to do than wait for an answer to show up. You also have the option of giving them clues that don't end the puzzle.

Here's an example of one of those. This one doesn't fit with rule 1 so much because it is a math problem.

You have the digits 1-9. Arrange them into a number divisible by 9. If you cut off the right most digit, the number left is divisible by 8. Cutting off the next right most leaves a number divisible by 7. Etc. Find the number.

Each time the players solve one number, they make progress on all the others. What's more is that you can give them clues as they go. If they try to bludgeon the puzzle with intelligence checks, tell them about divisibility rules. Most people I've seen know 2-6 and 9. They've heard of 8 but forgot about it. And everybody has to look up the rule for 7. (Which if I recall correctly involves stripping off the right most digit, doubling it, and subtracting that from the other number. So 14 checks out because 1-8 is -7, which divides 7.) But as I said, it's very hard to make this one a part of the game world and not just a case of "here's some math homework."

[Amphetryon]

It is *very* difficult to present puzzles that test character knowledge rather than player knowledge; for that reason, you need to be very sure that your players are the sort that enjoy having that line of demarcation breached. I've known a couple players who were either upset that 'I roll a Knowledge check' was not a viable solution, or who were thoroughly nonplussed by having 'Mensa entrance exams interspersed in their game of whack-an-orc.'

[TheThan]

My favorite is the big red button.

The puzzle consists of a room with two doors, and a pedestal with a big red button on it. One door is the door the pcs enter and the other is the way out. Now normally you’d think the button either does something really bad, or simply unlocks the door. But in this case the button doesn’t actually do anything. The other door is open. The pcs (particularly if their metagamy) should stop and try to figure out what will happen when they hit the button. Hopefully they will spend a lot of time debating on what they should do about this big red button they ought to push, but they should be hesitant to push it because they know that doing so might unleash something bad.

The entire point is to make them waste their time while you sit there laughing.


Now if you want a more serious and simple puzzle. You do something similar, but with three rooms, three doors and three buttons. Each button unlocks a different door, so that the pcs will have to try each button and each door to see where they lead. Only one continues on with the dungeon though.

[Emmerask]

Yep, I love using puzzles in my games too.
Some hints for usage, if the players get a solution that was not intended but is equally valid, this becomes the correct solution, let the players bask in the glory of solving your puzzle
Second it is really hard to estimate the time it may take to solve a puzzle I once made a cube (like in the movie) puzzle with only nine rooms which changed position based on a math formula, which was presented at the entrance of the cube, they did not get the hint ^^
So it took them 4 hours to reengineer the math behind it... and the tip behind that would be have some contingency plans, like additional tips that the players may find and use puzzles as a must solve to go on only very rarely.
Best use in my oppionion is for extra treasure or information then if the players just can´t solve it the adventure goes on none the less.

A very iconic one I really like is the 9 sphere´s test in which you have to find the one that has a sleightly lighter weight with 2 tries at the scale.

[Sipex]

Fire Maze
A large room or hall like area which is barren except for fire erupting from the floors. There's a pass between the flames straight through the room though, simple right? Of course not.

After X number of steps the fire changes position, completely shifting the maze and safe spots. Anyone brash enough to rush in might find themselves burnt to a crisp if they can't stay on safe spots and accurately predict where the fire will move to next.

1) Create a room of your liking, for extra gotcha effect, make a straight line from the entrance to where your goal is. Now fill the room with fire except for the straight shot, this will be the default condition of the room.

2) Now, plan out several different set ups for the fire and X number of steps between phases (keep it constant or change it up, your choice). For maximum puzzle effect, plan a route with the phases that must be figured out on the fly or ahead of time to keep the character safe. For maximum trap effect, roll to determine the next phase.

3) Now, create some clues to hint at the puzzle set up, maybe some heiroglyphs, a riddle or a mural.

4) Make sure the fire does sizable damage, you don't want your PCs to 'just run through' because they have fire resist or something of that effect.

5) Choose one of two paths.
- Create a switch/panel/something at the exit to turn off the trap and so, make sure you have a contingency plan for teleportation.
- No off switch. Teleportation is viable but damn if the entire party can reliably teleport.

6) Remember! It doesn't have to be fire. Crushing blocks, spikes and pitfalls all work just as well (pitfalls do take a disadvantage of providing fliers with safety). Use whatever you like.

Fire Maze - Level 5 - 1000xp:

Place the following mural on a wall near the trap:
x = fire, o = safe, -- = wall
S = start, E = end
--E-- --E-- --E-- --E-- --E--
xxoxx xxxxx xxxxo xxxxo xooxx 
xxoxx xooox xxxxo xoxxo xoxxx
xxoxx xoxox xxxxo xoxxo xxxxx
xxoxx xoxox ooxoo xoxxo xxxxx
xxoxx xxxxx oxxxx xoxxo xxoxx
xxoxx xxxxx ooxxx xoxxx xxoxx
--S-- --S-- --S-- --S-- --S--
     5>    3>    4>    4>    4-->(cycle)

Room cycles immediately after the # of steps are resolved and is meant to be taken one PC at a time.  Cycles are listed in order with the # of steps needed between each listed below them.

Players can jump to count a step.

Attacks:
Fire attacks when it enters your square or you enter a square on fire.  If entering multiple squares, each square makes a seperate attack.
Attack: +9 vs Reflex
Hit: 1d10+5 Fire Damage

Skills:
Perception DC 18 to notice holes in all tiles (not just the ones on fire)
Perception DC 20 to notice panel (if included)
Thievery DC 20 to disable a tile.  Disabling a tile only stops fire, not the step count.
Thievery DC 25 to disable the panel.  Disabling the panel turns off the trap.

The different setups are in order with the numbers between them representing the number of steps required before the set changes over. It's a simple example obviously but it does include a trapped route as well.

[kestrel404]

Puzzles can be fun, in limited quantity and in contexts that make sense. Encountering a puzzle trap in a temple of Vecna? Perfectly reasonable (He is a god of secrets, after all). Finding a puzzle-based lock in the king's palace guarding the sacred macguffin? Very hard to justify.

I tend to throw out puzzles as optional challenges to the player, to avoid the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PixelHunt problem. Solving the puzzle will either yield up extra loot or else a way to bypass one or more fights prior to a boss fight, or yield a secret passage into a forbidding castle (instead of trying to climb the wall or storm the gate).

As for my favorite puzzles, some examples include:

There is a flooded chamber blocking the path of the PCs. A window in the metal door ahead shows a room full of water and swimming monsters, with a pile of gold in the middle. There are a number of buttons on the door (the numbers from 1 to 100) and the text: "To enter here, you must prime my pump. But my pump primes backwards."

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Solution: press the buttons correlating to the prime numbers from 2 to 97, but from highest to lowest. This works for any guarded/unopenable door.

Another door. This one has a slot in the middle at eye level, and is barred from the other side. However, someone has carved into the doorframe the following message: The password is a number, greater than one but less than one hundred, the sum of whose digits is the same as their square. If a PC knocks on the door, a slot opens and a raspy voice asks for the password.

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Solution: The PC must say (exactly) "a number, greater than one but less than one hundred, the sum of whose digits is the same as their square". If the PC says 22, the person on the other side of the door activates a pit trap under their feet.

A hallway, a mere 2 feet wide, with a checkerboard floor, grey walls and a well-lit (by torches) ceiling. On the floor in front of the hallway is the inscription, "The light burns, while the darkness conceals danger." Stepping on the white checkerboard squares on the hallway floor causes a small fireburst to shoot down the hallway. Stepping on a black square results in some mechanical trap (bear trap, crossbow bolt, swinging axe blade, etc.)

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Solution: Use the walls to bypass the floor. They're grey, so not light or dark and therefore not trapped. The ceiling is brightly lit (light) and results in a rain of fire.

For more ideas, try looking for lateral thinking puzzles.

[Lev]

The most insidious puzzle is the one that seems obvious to intuition but is actually not as simple (logic puzzle), and only a few people ever get this, most of them have autism:

You see a gem fixed inside of a metal fitting inside a 15x15 cube shaped room, there are 3 doors at the other end of the room, each with a small indentation in the middle of each, there are no handles or knobs or rings or any sort of way to open the door.
You walk into the room and you hear a booming voice from the ceiling saying "Hello brave adventurers."
You look up to see a glowing brass crest of Pelor embedded in the ceiling.

Pelor Crest doesn't respond to anything until you pick up the gem.

Picking up them gem: You see that the metal fitting is round around the gem, and that it has a small shape sticking out of the back roughly the same shape as all of the indentations on the doors.

Pelor Crest then says: "Behind Two of these doors lies certain death for all of you, behind one of the doors lies the path to your glory. Choose wisely."

The players decide on one of the doors and fit the gem into it.

Pelor Crest "Behold the fate of this door, mortals!"
One of the doors glows bright translucent blue and then opens, a wall of force is blocking the door, but you can see a wall of bright molten lava churning behind it.
Pelor Crest "Do you believe you have chosen wisely, I will let you re-pick your choice, if you wish."

At this point, the amazing thing about this puzzle comes into play.

You see, the odds of choosing the right door to start off with are 1/3, but after that the odds change, but not to 50/50 as you'd think, the door other than the one you have currently picked is now 2/3 chance.

This is based on the marilyn vos savant gameshow problem, one of the most deceptive math problems ever created.

[Math_Mage]

The most insidious puzzle is the one that seems obvious to intuition but is actually not as simple (logic puzzle), and only a few people ever get this, most of them have autism:

<snip>

This is based on the marilyn vos savant monty hall gameshow problem, one of the most deceptive math problems ever created.

Just because someone with a high IQ mentions the problem, it doesn't become her problem. And just because it came up in The Curious Incident With the Dog in the Night-Time doesn't mean that it's especially relevant for autism.

On a side note, make sure to give the problem unambiguously if you want to maintain the math.

[DonEsteban]

Yes, sir, thank you so much, Mister math_mage for enlightening us all with your wisdom.

Back on topic: I've thought some time about why there are so few believable puzzles without the need of a wizard having done it. One reason for this is that, without powerful magic to prevent this, there are usually faster, easier ways to solve them than solving the actual puzzle. These solutions usually involve either a greataxe or setting something on fire (or both).

Useful examples include all kinds of codes.

[Lev]

Just because someone with a high IQ mentions the problem, it doesn't become her problem. And just because it came up in The Curious Incident With the Dog in the Night-Time doesn't mean that it's especially relevant for autism.

On a side note, make sure to give the problem unambiguously if you want to maintain the math.

Points noted, but the exercise is to spot the math puzzle is a puzzle in its own, and thats what would require the autism to get (more easily), not the math itself. The puzzle was merited in my post for its deceptiveness, so no I would not like to take the entire puzzle out of its colorful context because that would rob it of it's story after you solve it.
And I am aware it's not her puzzle, but I did leave clues to how I would relate autism to the puzzle, which would be solved if the reader of the post also read the book, so I didn't see a need to be that accurate as I was covered in both instances, technically.

[Math_Mage]

Meh, I'm sorry. I know a lot of people who enjoy Monty Hall and similar problems, and seeing the 'most people who get this have autism' point got at my blood pressure.

And I wasn't suggesting that you abandon the whole Pelor setup--I think it's neat. Just remember not to do seemingly insignificant things like decide that you'll default to opening Door 2 if it has a goat and isn't chosen, as that actually affects the probabilities.

[Starscream]

I have a bad tendency to test my players' real world knowledge with my puzzles. As they are typically nerds like me, it works okay.

One I recently did was "Olidammara's Gift". In the temple of Olidammara is a big pile of gold, placed in a trapped room as a joke by the god himself.

The gold sits on a wooden pillar, and the floors of the room are made out of Walls of Force. Beneath them is a pit of wooden spikes.

A sign on the wall explains the challenge. Anyone who casts a spell or uses any sort of magic in the room activates an Anti-Magic Field. This negates the floors, and everyone falls onto the spikes. A Gust of Wind spell pushes downward, preventing mundane flight as well.

If you touch the gold, a big vat of acid above it pours out onto the treasure, and then the anti-magic field activates a few seconds later. For years this treasure has sat in the temple unclaimed because even expert thieves can't figure out a safe way to nab it.

The Solution:

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Just touch the treasure. Gold does not corrode, so it is effectively acid proof (even the bizarre acid you get in fantasy games that dissolves steel instantly).

The acid pours out onto the gold, does nothing to it, dissolves the pillar and spills out onto the real floor, destroying the spikes and then draining harmlessly from the room.

A couple of seconds later the anti-magic field is activated, and the players also fall to the real floor (just far enough to be humorous; this is Olidammara we're dealing with). They are free to scoop up the treasure and leave.

I like the idea of the God of Rogues being the sort who would simply place a valuable treasure in front of you and say "Go on, take it". It's perfectly safe, but you'd be nuts to trust him, right?

I'd be willing to bet money that you guys could figure out a safe way of grabbing even without knowledge of the real-world factoid that forms the solution, but my players were impressed.

[Gralamin]

The most insidious puzzle is the one that seems obvious to intuition but is actually not as simple (logic puzzle), and only a few people ever get this, most of them have autism:

*Snip*

You see, the odds of choosing the right door to start off with are 1/3, but after that the odds change, but not to 50/50 as you'd think, the door other than the one you have currently picked is now 2/3 chance.

Actually you lost the 2/3 probability, at least if I'm reading this right (Maybe something got lost in how you stated it).
It seems that the first door you choose is always wrong. By making it so that that door is always wrong, and having the other two being unknown states.

This leaves us with the following choices:
Don't Switch: You lose
Switch, but choose wrong one: You lose
Switch, but choose right one: You win.
Since the initial choice has no effect, since it always results in the same thing, we can remove it from the equation entirely (IE: The one you choose is wrong). This means if you always switch, you have a probability of 1/2 of winning, and 1/2 of losing. Not switching means you lose.
Note this doesn't stay true if the one you picked is not the one opened. The Monte Hall problem relies on the fact that the host always reveals one that you didn't open, and that one is always wrong. Change that and the probabilities change.

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

My favorite is the big red button.

The puzzle consists of a room with two doors, and a pedestal with a big red button on it. One door is the door the pcs enter and the other is the way out. Now normally you’d think the button either does something really bad, or simply unlocks the door. But in this case the button doesn’t actually do anything. The other door is open. The pcs (particularly if their metagamy) should stop and try to figure out what will happen when they hit the button. Hopefully they will spend a lot of time debating on what they should do about this big red button they ought to push, but they should be hesitant to push it because they know that doing so might unleash something bad.

The entire point is to make them waste their time while you sit there laughing.


Now if you want a more serious and simple puzzle. You do something similar, but with three rooms, three doors and three buttons. Each button unlocks a different door, so that the pcs will have to try each button and each door to see where they lead. Only one continues on with the dungeon though.

Heh, I did something like this once. I think I actually got the idea from someone on this site. The PCs enter a room. As they enter, a stone door slams shut behind them, spikes come out of the ceiling, and an ominous grinding noise starts. The only other thing in the room is a small end-table with an one-minute hourglass on it. What do you do?

After two real-world hours, they finally gave up trying to get out (having discovered that the hourglass is magically linked to something, and that breaking it will trigger that something) and let it run out. The noise stops, the spikes recede, and the door opens.

[Lev]

It seems that the first door you choose is always wrong.

Good to know, but why does it seem that way?

[Balor01]

I just use gunpowder. Or huge blocks of iron falling form the sky. If the thing does not work, more gunpowder and more blocks.

I HATE puzzles. I'll just power attack it.

[Gralamin]

Good to know, but why does it seem that way?

Well, when dealing with puzzles, I always try to read them as if they were said out loud. Because sometimes people are jerks and hide things in ways that you won't notice unless they are said out loud. Combine this with sometimes Combining words together and thinking they are variable names, and you get slightly different interpretations then normal.

The players decide on one of the doors and fit the gem into it.

Pelor Crest "Behold the fate of this door, mortals!"
One of the doors glows bright translucent blue and then opens, a wall of force is blocking the door, but you can see a wall of bright molten lava churning behind it.
Pelor Crest "Do you believe you have chosen wisely, I will let you re-pick your choice, if you wish."

This repeat of One of the Doors makes it seem like the same one. An easy way around this is "Another of the doors glows bright..."

If you meant that any door could possibly be the one, as long as its incorrect, that leaves us with the following possibilities:
1/3 of the time - Chosen Door open: Switch to win, or switch to lose. 1/6 chance to win so far.
1/3 of the time - Your door is wrong, another wrong one opens: Switch to win.
1/3 of the time - your door is right, another wrong one opens: Switch to lose.
This gives you a 1/3+1/6 = 1/2 half chance of winning if you switch - In other words, as long as your door can open when its wrong, you are going to have a 50% chance to win if you switch.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

One of the troubles I always have, as a DM, in putting puzzles in a dungeon is that the PCs are often smarter than the players.

All it takes is one wizard or skillmonkey with INT 18 or more.
Most of your players will be dumber than the human maximum (barring age bonuses). If any of their caracters are genii, they can very easily solve complex problems, and the whole puzzle turns into an INT check.

[hewhosaysfish]

The Solution:

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Just touch the treasure. Gold does not corrode, so it is effectively acid proof (even the bizarre acid you get in fantasy games that dissolves steel instantly).

The acid pours out onto the gold, does nothing to it, dissolves the pillar and spills out onto the real floor, destroying the spikes and then draining harmlessly from the room.

A couple of seconds later the anti-magic field is activated, and the players also fall to the real floor (just far enough to be humorous; this is Olidammara we're dealing with). They are free to scoop up the treasure and leave.

I like the idea of the God of Rogues being the sort who would simply place a valuable treasure in front of you and say "Go on, take it". It's perfectly safe, but you'd be nuts to trust him, right?

I like the spirit of the puzzle but...

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if the "thief" is in a position to touch the gold then wouldn't the acid fall on their head?
I actually knew that acid doesn't dissolve gold but assumed that was the function of the trap: the intruder tries to grab the gold, strong-enough-to-destroy-a-wooden-pillar-in-seconds acid rains down, the intruder dies screaming in agony, the treasure sits there unharmed waiting for the next schmuck to come along.
Perhaps a large, solid-gold umberella?

[AvatarZero]

There are a few problems with puzzles in RPGs. One is metagaming, and it's already been mentioned in this thread. Player characters are better at swordfighting than players (allowing for fencing students and level 1 non-elf wizards, of course). We don't penalize a player for knowing less than their character when it comes to combat. What happens when a character should be better at solving a puzzle than their player? If you don't roll, then the PCs aren't really involved, it's just the players solving a puzzle.

This issue goes further when it comes to low INT characters and clever players. What happens when the guy playing the half-orc barbarian solves the puzzle? Or in combat, what happens when he comes up with a genius tactic that his character wouldn't have thought of? Are we supposed to tell him to just be quiet, he's not intitled to his idea?

Another issue I want to mention is the way in which puzzles can go wrong based on how the DM describes them. We've probably all had situations where someone has done something silly because there was a miscommunication between them and the DM. Puzzles really exacerbate this sort of thing. I admit, I am mentioning this one because it just happened to me.

If you touch the gold, a big vat of acid above it pours out onto the treasure, and then the anti-magic field activates a few seconds later.

Oh, so first the pillar gets covered in acid, then you get dropped onto the spikes. Sounds like you don't have time to do anything after touching the treasure. I wonder what the solution is...

Oh.

[Emmerask]

There are a few problems with puzzles in RPGs. One is metagaming, and it's already been mentioned in this thread. Player characters are better at swordfighting than players (allowing for fencing students and level 1 non-elf wizards, of course). We don't penalize a player for knowing less than their character when it comes to combat. What happens when a character should be better at solving a puzzle than their player? If you don't roll, then the PCs aren't really involved, it's just the players solving a puzzle.

Yes puzzles are mostly metagaming, though you could let them roll int for a hint or two after some time.

This issue goes further when it comes to low INT characters and clever players. What happens when the guy playing the half-orc barbarian solves the puzzle? Or in combat, what happens when he comes up with a genius tactic that his character wouldn't have thought of? Are we supposed to tell him to just be quiet, he's not intitled to his idea?

Even not so bright people (in comparison) have good ideas sometimes. Frodo at the moria entrance for example
But you have a point for the int 4 half orc barbarian who solves the puzzles ^^ Then again it is a metagame relief from fighting and roleplaying and best of all you can grab a bite to eat while the players try to solve it



Two of the best riders from Calimshan want to find out who is the best of them. So they ride against each other 3 times but every time they arrive at the finish line at exactly the same time. So this time they decide that the one who´s horse is there last will be the winner.
At first both ride slower and slower until they come to a dead stop and both dismount. They both sit down and wait; one hour passes until suddenly one of the riders jumps up mounts and rides as fast as he can towards the finish line, the other does that too but is too slow and comes too late.
what happened?

[valadil]

If you meant that any door could possibly be the one, as long as its incorrect, that leaves us with the following possibilities:
1/3 of the time - Chosen Door open: Switch to win, or switch to lose. 1/6 chance to win so far.
1/3 of the time - Your door is wrong, another wrong one opens: Switch to win.
1/3 of the time - your door is right, another wrong one opens: Switch to lose.
This gives you a 1/3+1/6 = 1/2 half chance of winning if you switch - In other words, as long as your door can open when its wrong, you are going to have a 50% chance to win if you switch.

Magenta text for emphasis. That can't happen in the standard Monty Hall problem. It may not have been clearly explained in this thread.

There are 3 doors. One of them contains a prize. Two of them have nothing. You pick a door. Then the host eliminates a losing door. He always gets rid of one of the wrong doors, after you've picked your first door.

[Ditto]

That's the crux of the confusing math in the Monty Hall problem. If the doors and neutral and open of their own accord, regardless of the prize behind them, then it make sense with the math as presented above.

But if you're being introduced by a host, and the host KNOWS where the prize is and opens a goat door, then you want to switch. Think about it this way: There are 100 doors. You choose door #1. The Host says "Look- door 100 has a goat behind it. Want to switch now?" And so on. What the question boils down to is 'What are the odds you chose the winning door on your first try?" 1 in 100 isn't so great. It's a 99/100 chance that the winning door is NOT the one you chose, so you might as well switch.

As the host opens door 99, and 98, and so on trying to tempt you (but ALWAYS opening a goat door, because he's the host and he knows that the car is behind door 2), he's basically saying You had a 99/100 chance of being wrong with your first choice. You're down to door 1, or you can switch to door 2. Whaddya say? It's the same principle magnified with the 3 door set-up. When you have a host, you want to switch.

[valadil]

When you have a host, you want to switch.

Or just beat the host senseless until he gives you the car AND the goats.

[hewhosaysfish]

Two of the best riders from Calimshan want to find out who is the best of them. So they ride against each other 3 times but every time they arrive at the finish line at exactly the same time. So this time they decide that the one who´s horse is there last will be the winner.
At first both ride slower and slower until they come to a dead stop and both dismount. They both sit down and wait; one hour passes until suddenly one of the riders jumps up mounts and rides as fast as he can towards the finish line, the other does that too but is too slow and comes too late.
what happened?

Spoiler

Show

The one dude took the other dude's horse.

[Umael]

Meta-game knowledge is not as horrible as you guys make it out to be if you allow sharing. Basically, imagine you have a really smart guy playing an elf fighter and a not-as-bright guy playing a wizard. The smart guy looks at the puzzle, says "Apple", and viola! The puzzle is solved. However, what you can do is say that while it was the smart guy OOC who came up with the solution, IC it was the wizard instead.

(Not sure if I explained that well enough to be understood...)