Build Optimization Question for Tiny Ninja Assassin

[Gnosis]

Well here's the basic DM Approvals for the build:
The whole team is basically a power game team.
No d20 books etc.
Unearthed Arcana Variants Approved
Any number of multiclasses is fine.
Ninja approved as Whisper Gnome preferred class for particular game world.
Non-evil Assassin approved.
Standard Iaijutsu Rules approved (flatfooted & draw in one action = dmg)
Flaws Approved (2 max)

And here's what Im working with so far as a general idea:
Whisper Gnome - Hide etc bonuses, spell abilities, and Small size
Trapfinding Variant - precise attacks for 1/2 dmg against ud and const
Thug Fighter Variant - Extra sneak attack, BAB
Ninja - Ghoststep and Wis AC
SwdSage - Manuevers (some give flatfooted), Assassin Stance, Shadowblade (dex to damage)
Overlay Assassin and Uncanny Trickster - Same HP, Saves, BAB for efficiency, pick up trix Hidden blade, Sudden draw, and Acrobatic backstab as 2x uses per encounter
Mage 1 lvl Dip - Astral Jaunt and Reduce 2x/day or so (by int bonus)

So with the feat progression 2wpn fighting, wpn finesse, craven, underfoot combat, and confound bigfolk (by, or before lvl 12)... Confound bigfolk while Reduced would permit unending permanent Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, and Iaijutsu Damage on EVERY attack whether hidden, flanking, or not. Rough calc ... with some other lvls for SA... at lvl 12 its well over +50-60 avg dmg per hit... with a 1 dmg weapon...kinda hilarious

Feel free to offer any suggestions on a better construction pre-lvl 12. But I think I could really use some ways to maximize this character's "one hit wonder" Nature in post 12 lvls. Any help is appreciated!

BTW - this character has been to -3 and 5 HP on the past two games (partly because of flaws that limit his CON and AC) so Im thinking of continuing Invisible Blade levels for more AC (int bonus) After that progression for example while reduced and underfoot he'd have well over 28 or so AC... naked.

[The Glyphstone]

Gnomish Quickrazor + Quick Draw? If they can take sneak attack damage at all, now you're doing it and Iajatsu damage on every attack for the entire fight.

[Machiavellian]

Gnomish Quickrazor + Quick Draw? If they can take sneak attack damage at all, now you're doing it and Iajatsu damage on every attack for the entire fight.

Bad Glyphstone! No Iaijutsu!

I suggest using the SA Fighter with Assassin on the Whisper Gnome

[The Glyphstone]

Bad Glyphstone! No Iaijutsu!

I suggest using the SA Fighter with Assassin on the Whisper Gnome

why you yellin' at me? He's the one that already said it was approved...

Standard Iaijutsu Rules approved (flatfooted & draw in one action = dmg)

[Machiavellian]

why you yellin' at me? He's the one that already said it was approved...

Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...Iaijustu is a lie...

[Greenish]

Gnomish Quickrazor + Quick Draw? If they can take sneak attack damage at all, now you're doing it and Iajatsu damage on every attack for the entire fight.

Not quite. You don't get iaijutsu damage just from flanking.

Also, I suggest not using ninja, swordsage gets you wis to AC (in light armour, even).

I'm assuming you took weapon familiarity with Gnomish Quickblade.

[Gnosis]

Hehe Folks are lively today eh?
yeah I had to read Iaijutsu like 16x to make sure it worked like it says it works... and even then I felt kinda dirty - but then again... like I said... -3 and 5 hp... on the last two encounters (and I've been playing cautious after openers).

Where do i read about quickrazors? Im pretty sure though I wouldnt be able to find em in my game... Its not very item friendly... no real economy even (post apocalyptic setting). I was lucky to find a kukri for my Invisible Blade level... And Kukri is the wpn specialty I have from Swd Sage as well...

Mostly I'd like to know where to take the character after lvl 12... I thought about taking a 1 dip in Barbarian for pounce and Whirlwind frenzy... +1 attack would be pretty tight... then Invis Blade. Maybe a few more lvls of Assassin... to get Alter self but (meh) good for skills to turn into swimmy and climby things when i have a crap strength. I could rogue once more to get evasion (thatd be handy).... Then maybe Swdsg for lvl 20 so I can get some new maneuvers... or even swdsg for lvls 18-20... so i get the 4th lvl manuever exchange thingy...

... kinda no clue ... though post 12th Barb/4Invisbld/3swdsg is good not sure how it compares to other concepts...

[The Glyphstone]

Not quite. You don't get iaijutsu damage just from flanking.

Also, I suggest not using ninja, swordsage gets you wis to AC (in light armour, even).

I'm assuming you took weapon familiarity with Gnomish Quickblade.

He's using Confound The Big Folk to keep them perpetually flat-footed while Reduced, flanking doesn't factor into it as far as I can tell.

[Gnosis]

Not quite. You don't get iaijutsu damage just from flanking.

Also, I suggest not using ninja, swordsage gets you wis to AC (in light armour, even).

I'm assuming you took weapon familiarity with Gnomish Quickblade.

Nope Kukri... Like i said Dont have room for fancy weapons in the world im in. Also @ninja vs Swdsage... the point was to get Sneak attacks as high as possible AND i need an escape route (ghoststep)... Swdsage is nice but couldnt really find a reason for more than 2 lvls in the 12 progression, especially with the other armor restrictions in the build (light armor doesnt help so much).

[The Glyphstone]

Nope Kukri... Like i said Dont have room for fancy weapons in the world im in. Also @ninja vs Swdsage... the point was to get Sneak attacks as high as possible AND i need an escape route (ghoststep)... Swdsage is nice but couldnt really find a reason for more than 2 lvls in the 12 progression.

I'd forget Barbarian or anything else, and go straight Swordsage all the way to 20. 4 levels of Invisible Blade gets you the same AC boost as putting on a chain shirt, without maneuver advancement. Plus, at high levels AC really isn't an effective defense, everything hits you on 20's or 2's most of the time. You want non-AC defenses like miss chances....Setting Sun and Shadow Hand disciplines have some good ones here, and Swordsage can access both.

Gnomis Quickrazors are in Races of Stone. Their benefit is that they can be sheathed as a free action. Combined with Quick Draw, this means you can Draw+Sheath on every single attack you make. As long as you keep them flat-footed, this means Iajatsu damage for every attack you make, plus the sneak attack for hitting them flat-footed.

[Akal Saris]

Swordsage maneuvers will generally be better than any arbitrary number of sneak attack you might get out of ninja. The level shadow hand 2 maneuver, cloak of deception, for example, gives you improved invisibility as a swift action, as many times per day as you'd like.

[Gnosis]

Yeah swdsage after 12 is probably a very good idea... One big limitation of the char though is mobility ... and a one level dip for pounce is pretty damn nice... especially well stacking with two wpn fighting AND helping to make up for the 1-3 rnds of prep time for Reduce casting (or reduce, catsgrace, truestrike or whatever, so that I can Deathattack too).

Remember im not trying to build a fighter ... just want a one hit wonder assassin who clobbers for damage

along those lines I think i might even pick up Deadly precision too... to reroll 1s.. but it gets neutered if I take swdsage because of the loss of SA... Manuevers are great but not really the same as +1d6/2 lvls (or more, depending on if I pick up spellthief or something else to 1 dip)... on every strike...

... @ deadly precision ... do you think it was meant to apply to Sudden strike as well as Sneak attack?? (prolly not but while im reaching might as well reach further).

[Gnosis]

Swordsage maneuvers will generally be better than any arbitrary number of sneak attack you might get out of ninja. The level shadow hand 2 maneuver, cloak of deception, for example, gives you improved invisibility as a swift action, as many times per day as you'd like.

I already have that though and by lvl 12 (lvl 8 actually) i also get assassins stance (and its once per encounter without reprepping the manuever).

Maybe its best to post the build explicitly:

1 Rogue 1 1d6sa Shadow Hand, Craven,Two-Weapon,
2 Thug 1 1d6sa Hidden Blade
3 Ninja 1 1d6ss Weapon Finesse
4 Ninja 2 Sudden Draw
5 SwdSg 1 (IL3) Child of Shadow St, Dist.Ember, Saph.Night, WolfFang, Mt.Hammer, ShadowJaunt, CloakDeception
6 Inv.Blade 1 1d6sa Quickdraw, +1 AC, TwistedCharge
7 Assassin 1 1d6sa Poison, Death Attack (DC 17), TrueStrike
8 SwdSg 2 (IL5) 2d6sa Assassins St., FanFlames, ShroudedDance-5preformance
9 Unc. Trix 1 (Assn2) Underfoot, Uncanny Dodge, +1 Poison Save, DisguiseSelf, AcrobaticBkstb-tumble (bump)
10 Unc. Trix 2 (Assn3) 1d6sa Featherfall, CatsGrace, ClarityVision-spot, SpotWeakpoint-spot, HiddenBlade (bump)
11 Unc. Trix 3 (Nin3) 1d6ss Improved Poison, TimelyMisdirect, ShroudedDance (bump)
12 Mage 1 ConfoundBig, Astral Jaunt, Conj Specialist, Reduce (2/day), GroupFakeout

Its messy but you can sort it out prolly (sry).

Right now im lvl 7 in this progression. Changing it too much... or taking out SA or SS from post 12 needs to REALLY be worth it as he's an assassin and so ... very interested in max one round dmg on one target.

[Greenish]

He's using Confound The Big Folk to keep them perpetually flat-footed while Reduced, flanking doesn't factor into it as far as I can tell.

Right, missed that.

Nope Kukri... Like i said Dont have room for fancy weapons in the world im in.

Well, it makes more sense for whisper gnomes than the hooked hammer, and you can get proficiency for it for free, but well, do as you wish.

Also @ninja vs Swdsage... the point was to get Sneak attacks as high as possible AND i need an escape route (ghoststep)...

Swordsage offers both a teleport and a swift action (greater) invisibility from maneuvers.

Swdsage is nice but couldnt really find a reason for more than 2 lvls

Maneuvers are in ToB pages 47-90.

(light armor doesnt help so much).

It's better than nothing, and you can get armour properties such as shadow and silent moves on it.


[Edit]: You need +1 BAB for Finesse, so you can't take it on your first rogue level.

[Gnosis]

Check out my prev post quicklike cus i think there are other lvls that limit me to no armor... like Invis Blade and Assassin?... if like you said i dont need to worry about AC... then i wont be worrying about light armor either...

Manuevers are awesome but Im very interested in full attack openers... and i think there are ways to have my cake and eat it too so to speak...

Especially since all the manuvers you mentioned ill have already by lvl 8...

And i think i should at least dip swdsage for the last level to take adv of my Initiator Level (potentially even the last 4 lvls) but am unsure... seems the loss of damage on the first strike will be spreading the char too thin...

Oh and thanks for the Finesse Catch! also had to move quickdraw for the same reason. (just have to deal with having usless feat - shadowblade - early lvl till later hehe).

[Greenish]

Check out my prev post quicklike cus i think there are other lvls that limit me to no armor... like Invis Blade and Assassin?

Assassins can wear light armour just fine. You're right about invisible blade though.

... if like you said i dont need to worry about AC... then i wont be worrying about light armor either...

I didn't say anything about not worrying about AC (though I agree you shouldn't), I just pointed out that having armour means having access to armour enhancements. You could get them on bracers, but that'll be a bit more costly.

Manuevers are awesome but Im very interested in full attack openers...

Like Pouncing Charge from Tiger Claw that allows you full attack on charge (and allows you to add your wis mod to damage from Swordsage since it's a strike). Then Dancing/Raging Mongoose for 2/4 extra attacks at your highest attack bonus.

Especially since all the manuvers you mentioned ill have already by lvl 8...

The teleport can be upgraded to lesser actions.

[Gnosis]

Now we're talking... that boost and strike are very very good
... only trouble is once an encounter... and the boost is swift so I wouldnt be able to go invis on the same round (or ghoststep or whatever)... right? Still pretty nice though.

So i would get access to those at hmm 9th IL.... which in my build is IL7 @lvl 12 so ... lvl 14.... So yeah it seems pretty fricking nice gotta say... I mean i have skilltrix to make charges easier so pounce is awesome though.

Definately something to think over.
the game is not likely to go much further than lvl 15 or so... and for that reason maybe you are correct... I mean really the feint ability from Invis Bld will be pointless when reduced and underfoot/confoundbig...

Oh Crap. Now i know why i didnt consider it before... Its a base class (though it doesnt feel like it right? lol)... so I'll take xp penalties for any lvls past the 2 that i have already (as of lvl 8).

[The Glyphstone]

Beat your DM with a rubber noodle until he removes the XP multiclass penalties? They've got to be one of the stupidest legacy rules left over from 3.0 and previous editions anyways.

[Gnosis]

Beat your DM with a rubber noodle until he removes the XP multiclass penalties? They've got to be one of the stupidest legacy rules left over from 3.0 and previous editions anyways.

lol seems like he wont if we had the convo about prefered class that prolly means he likes the limitation

[The Glyphstone]

lol seems like he wont if we had the convo about prefered class that prolly means he likes the limitation

Well, I assumed he wouldn't do it voluntarily, hence the wet noodle.

If he won't budge though, you might want to consider stripping ninja out entirely in favor of Rogue, retraining if necessary...it's pretty easy to fluff, you're just neglecting your mystical sneaking abilities in favor of further developing your mundane kidney-shanking. No loss of overall dice, and better advantages in terms of skill selection. The only thing Ninja gives you is the short-term invisibility, which is rendered redundant by Confound The Big Folk/Reduce Person.

Deadly Precision is a trap feat, the return it gets is almost never worth a feat slot, particularly with the relatively low number of dice you have.

[PhoenixRivers]

You're missing Psychic Rogue. +1d6 sneak attack, and compression for a power.

[Gnosis]

You're missing Psychic Rogue. +1d6 sneak attack, and compression for a power.

Yeah, you mean Lurker? From Psionics? Yeah another way to really get the SA higher. Unfortunately for some reason one of the few book limitations is no Psionics... Ill be happy to get away with using Deadly precision (which is in the second psionics book) as it is. Also if i was really stupid I could try to argue for Nightsong enforcer, Zhentarim spy, and Guild Theif (shadow of Amn)... but to argue for membership in each, along with Assassins is asking far too much (even if he'd permit it I'd head straight to DND hell if i did that...). Plus they have feat requirements so... not really worth it anyway.

[lsfreak]

Yeah, you mean Lurker? From Psionics?

Psychic Rogue. There's a psionic assassin, as well.

[Doc Roc]

http://www.obsidianportal.com/campai...aracters/35950
you may find some tender bits of meat to extract from this character.

[Gnosis]

Psychic Rogue. There's a psionic assassin, as well.

Sorry should have emphasized... seems that class might be from a non official pub of some kind... magazine or web? But I can only use hardbound official prints.

Also guys @ armor in general... should also re-emphasize that im a small creature with only a 6 strength or something... so being armorless greatly helps my hides and carrying cap.

[lsfreak]

Sorry should have emphasized... seems that class might be from a non official pub of some kind... magazine or web? But I can only use hardbound official prints.

It's from an official WotC D&D 3.5e web article. It's as official as the errata or any book.

[Gnosis]

It's from an official WotC D&D 3.5e web article. It's as official as the errata or any book.

hehe yeah cant convince my dm of that though... he doesnt even like the magazines so why would he like the web articles :D

Im guessing its just to limit the amount of material we all have to be familiar with but regardless - its one of the limitations i have to use while making the build... no mags no web.. period

[lsfreak]

Well, the magazines tend to be a crapshoot as to whether things are fine, brokenly overpowered, or brokenly useless, or at least that seems to be the view from many people (not to mention they're fairly hard to get a legal and/or print copy of).

The web articles, for the most part, are much more in line with published material, especially since most of it is tie-ins with specific books (for example, Psychic Rogue is part of a web-only extension for PHB2).