The cure for MAD?

[Cheesy74]

There is a feat in the Races of Renown: Bastards and Bloodlines sourcebook. It goes as follows.

Lost Tradition (General)
You are descended from a group of spellcasters who had very different ways of mastering magic, and you follow in their tradition.

Benefits: Choose one spellcasting class. You may change which ability score governs spellcasting with that class. That ability cannot be changed again.

Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.



This governing score change determines bonus spells, maximum castable spell level, and save DCs. I see this as an excellent resource if it would be allowed in any campaigns at all. Charisma-based clerics, for instance, would be even more powerful, since all their class features would be cha-based.

The roleplaying applications, as well, are quite interesting. A con-based sorcerer could be a vessel for raw magic that he is only able to release without destroying himself through a concerted effort of bodily fortitude.

Thoughts, applications, etc?

[Deth Muncher]

Heh, Str based casters make me chuckle. I mean, I know that's not what you're going for, but the thought of someone's somatic component being flexing their muscles in a certain pattern is just too good for words.

[Cheesy74]

I had discussed that before with a friend, yeah.
"So you're faced with an ogre zombie. What do you do?"
"I do an intricate pec-dance until a beam of sunlight shoots from my biceps."

[Mando Knight]

Heh, Str based casters make me chuckle. I mean, I know that's not what you're going for, but the thought of someone's somatic component being flexing their muscles in a certain pattern is just too good for words.

Well, why else would armor give such a huge penalty to spells with somatic components?

[olelia]

A constitution based druid and wizard walk into a bar....

[Jack_Simth]

There is a feat in the Races of Renown: Bastards and Bloodlines sourcebook. It goes as follows.

Lost Tradition (General)
You are descended from a group of spellcasters who had very different ways of mastering magic, and you follow in their tradition.

Benefits: Choose one spellcasting class. You may change which ability score governs spellcasting with that class. That ability cannot be changed again.

Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.



This governing score change determines bonus spells, maximum castable spell level, and save DCs. I see this as an excellent resource if it would be allowed in any campaigns at all. Charisma-based clerics, for instance, would be even more powerful, since all their class features would be cha-based.

The roleplaying applications, as well, are quite interesting. A con-based sorcerer could be a vessel for raw magic that he is only able to release without destroying himself through a concerted effort of bodily fortitude.

Thoughts, applications, etc?

A Strength-based Cleric with the Strength domain invokes the ability and uses a Save-or-Lose spell. Goodbye BBEG. Only once/day, though, so not too bad... but at 10th level, that's +5 to the spell save DC (well, less any boosts from a Belt of Giant Strength, but still...).

The biggest problem with the feat as listed is that, for the most part, it's not casters that are MAD. It's Monks, Paladins, Hexblades, and so forth, who aren't particularly helped by this. In the meantime, it makes casters even more SAD (oh yes, and Con will be a VERY popular choice).

[Mechanichi]

Dexterity-based wizards. To cast spell they need to do over-the-top-Naruto-esque handsigns.

[Trixie]

Constitution. Rawr!

Or Dexterity. Hit and not let be hitted

[The Glyphstone]

This was why I loved my 4e Dragon Sorcerer. He got extra damage on his attacks by flexing at the enemies.

[Vizzerdrix]

Mmm... Int based Sorc om nom nom

[elonin]

This has applications for gishes. For example use this to change your casting stat to dex and gish as a skill monkey.

[urbanpirate]

Makes all those arcane hierophant and MT builds all the more nasty.

[Emmerask]

There is a feat in the Races of Renown: Bastards and Bloodlines sourcebook. It goes as follows.

Lost Tradition (General)
You are descended from a group of spellcasters who had very different ways of mastering magic, and you follow in their tradition.

Benefits: Choose one spellcasting class. You may change which ability score governs spellcasting with that class. That ability cannot be changed again.

Special: You can take this feat only at 1st level.



This governing score change determines bonus spells, maximum castable spell level, and save DCs. I see this as an excellent resource if it would be allowed in any campaigns at all. Charisma-based clerics, for instance, would be even more powerful, since all their class features would be cha-based.

The roleplaying applications, as well, are quite interesting. A con-based sorcerer could be a vessel for raw magic that he is only able to release without destroying himself through a concerted effort of bodily fortitude.

Thoughts, applications, etc?

I seem to fail to see the reason behind this caster buff?
And which casters are really a mad class to begin with, I´m sure there are a few but still con based wizard? dex based sorcerer? madness !

Paladin and monk the most mad class ever are not effected at all by this paladin because only spellcasting is effected and monk well is not a casting class... so this is no mad fix at all?

Or do I just fail my dc check to see the joke?

[Pluto]

This feat is terrible. MAD is a good thing in casters

All the relatively benign buff spells become ridiculous. And the ones that are already really good ([Draconic] Polymorph, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Giant Size, Bite of the Werebear, etc.) become even more of a problem.

But on the plus side, this feat is a cheap trick that can allow the strengthly barbarian to stand alongside the wizened priest, even into higher levels (just they both get to be labeled 'Cleric'). And there's something I like about Mongrelfolk becoming one of the strongest races.

Overall though, this can be easily abused, it has incredibly strange fluff and it would exaggerate imbalance problems between classes if allowed.

[Thurbane]

It would really help dual stat based casters, like Favored Soul, Archivist and Healer, even if it was limited to mental stats only.

[UglyPanda]

I was wondering why I hadn't seen that feat before, then I remembered that that book is third-party.

In my opinion, that book was badly written and badly conceived. As several people have already said, this is not a fix. Also, dual-stat casters already have an easy fix: houseruling them into single-stat casters.

[Kantolin]

Spirit Shamans, Shugenja, Favored Souls, Shadowcasters(Assuming they count), Bardic Sages, and Healers will all love you. Plus it'd let Lurks use dexterity for everything if they felt like it (assuming they count too).

If it was then limited to mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha), it wouldn't be terribly unfair to open it up to everyone either. Without that, it's probably unfair for the above casters too.

[AstralFire]

Dual stat casters do not need to get buffed to single stat casters. Single stat casters need more MAD.

[UglyPanda]

I'm well aware, I'm just pointing out that dual-stat casters would not need this feat if you believed they needed it.

Not too sure about the Lurk and the Ninja, though. I rarely see those in play. I'd personally prefer

[Demons_eye]

Dual stat casters do not need to get buffed to single stat casters. Single stat casters need more MAD.

You telling me doing push up's till the ground shakes, jumping in the air and doing flips till a fire ball shots out, or roaring until lighting strikes is not enough reason to just let people use this?

[Thurbane]

Dual stat casters do not need to get buffed to single stat casters. Single stat casters need more MAD.

Either way, it needs to be a level playing field. Having some full casters on one stat, and a handful on two, is just asinine.

[Tyrandar]

Yea, is it not written that the cure for MAD is to be GLAD?

[AstralFire]

You telling me doing push up's till the ground shakes, jumping in the air and doing flips till a fire ball shots out, or roaring until lighting strikes is not enough reason to just let people use this?

It's called Swordsage.

[Runestar]

At best, I would allow a feat which lets you select another stat for determining bonus spells known (but spell dcs is still based on your original stat).

[Thurbane]

...so if you were going to make SAD casters into MAD, how would you go about it?

Clerics: WIS & CHA
Druids: WIS & CHA
Wizards: INT & CHA
Sorcerers: INT & CHA

[AstralFire]

I would make Sorcerers straight Cha (they're the weakest of the four anyway, and get a Forced mini-MAD from fixed spell list meaning higher skill reliance), and Druids Wis and Int personally.

[Cheesy74]

In my opinion, that book was badly written and badly conceived.

I'd have to agree, on the grounds that on the next page is a feat that allows players to defy all anatomy.

Basically, it allows you to run 10x your speed for 1 round and make a DC 15+rounds sprinted in last hour fortitude save to keep sprinting every round after that.
If anyone else just noticed that that's a really, really pitiful save for something that lets a third-level barbarian run 45 miles an hour (I did the calculations), then congrats, you have a better sense of realism than the writers of this book.

I like this feat more for its flavour than for its actual mechanics. Its effects could just be achieved through roleplay rather than throwing a gigantic bone to munchkins with the feat itself.

[AstralFire]

That feat's a lot better than the one you put at the top of the page. I'll let you think about why.

[AmberVael]

...so if you were going to make SAD casters into MAD, how would you go about it?

Clerics: WIS & CHA
Druids: WIS & CHA
Wizards: INT & CHA
Sorcerers: INT & CHA

I'm not entirely sure what I'd do with the divine casters, but I think arcane would go:

Wizards: Int and Wis
Sorcerers: Wis and Cha

My reasoning is that Wizards are all about understanding the universe and unlocking its secrets via knowledge and formula. Force of personality never enters into it, really- it's all about the workings in their head.

Sorcerer, on the other hand, is all about innate control and mastery. Their instinctual, intuitive talents allow them to use arcane magic- it's about force of will and inborn talent, which is better represented by Wisdom and Charisma- intellect isn't really necessary.

[Draz74]

...so if you were going to make SAD casters into MAD, how would you go about it?

Clerics: WIS & CHA
Druids: WIS & CHA
Wizards: INT & CHA
Sorcerers: INT & CHA

I've always thought INT & WIS made more sense for a lot of Wizards. Merlin, for example, seems much better at perception and willpower than at social skills or emotional forcefulness.

'Course, there are plenty of counterexamples, too. Fizban's Wisdom certainly wasn't anything to admire ...

But really, when you get down to it, it really doesn't matter until you clean up some of the vagaries of what the three scores actually represent. And it really would make the most sense for all spellcasting to depend somehow on all three scores ...

EDIT: Ninja'd.