Psychologists need no apply, greater restoration.

[taltamir]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restorationGreater.htm

Greater restoration also dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature’s abilities, cures all temporary ability damage, and restores all points permanently drained from all ability scores. It also eliminates fatigue and exhaustion, and removes all forms of insanity, confusion, and similar mental effects. Greater restoration does not restore levels or Constitution points lost due to death.

The interesting part is that insanity is right after "fatigue and exhaustion" (very physical conditions) and not part of the magical effects section earlier... so it cures insanity, confusion and similar mental effects...

How far does it go? Does it mean that all mental issues can be cured by it?
Got molested as a kid? Had to kill some kids in a war? Accidentally caused your family to die?
no problem, you just need a restoration. All emotional baggage and trauma is cleared from your mind.

XP cost is a problem of course, but those can be afforded by some, and eliminated completely with some pretty minor cheese. (planar binding a Planetar and ask him to cure that poor sick person by casting greater restoration on him)

EDIT: When I say psychiatrists need not apply I mean that they are obsoleted by the magic within the game world, I would love to hear from real world psychiatrists about what they think of this little trick

[Samb]

I would say restoration..... well restores you to your default state. So for if you suddenly develop depression then restoration would get rid of that, same thing with any other acute conditions like bipolar or schizophrenia.

The debatable thing would be how long it would last. Bipolar and schizophrenia are very much organic diseases with a strong genetic component (based on twin studies). Will restoration only fix the current episode or will it cure them? If the former, then it is no better than current medications (lose of XP= memory lose?).

Now if you are talking about personality disorders I doubt restoration can do anything since the problem is essentially the patient themselves. In terms of things like PTSD or abuse, restoration should also be useless since the trauma in many ways has defined the patient already; this is their default state.

In gaming terms, I think WoTC meant insanity to be hallucinations (ie psychosis) specifically and not "damaged goods" (geez that sounds horrible).


PS I am a psychiatrist. Sorry for posting even though you said not to.

[mucat]

Any time you encounter an argument that "Rules As Written mean that game characters' minds don't work the way real people's minds do," there is only one relevant question: "Would playing it this way make the game better?"

(BillyJimJoeBob, I'm talking to you!)

Allowing a restoration spell to instantly erase past emotional trauma doesn't seem like something that would make for a better story...unless you want to specifically explore the implications, good and bad, of that kind of psychological magitech.

For a standard-issue campaign, I'd be more likely to say Restoration can heal braion disorders caused by a disease or a magical effect, but can't do anything for "Terrible things happened to her, and now she's a mess." (Or for that matter, "He's just that way. That's who he is.") Because a spell to smooth over personal trauma/dysfunction tends to make a character less interesting, not more.

[Samb]

Ironically mind rape and mind wipe could erase past traumas. This does make for less dramatic characters, as mucat pointed out, and mind rape is..... well really vile.

[Set]

Remove Blindness/Deafness is another pretty dramatic one, affecting even blindness or deafness of 'mundane' nature, and repairing damaged organs (but not replacing missing ones). It's not a terribly high level effect, and it would be unlikely that there'd be a lot of blind beggars running around, as a result.

Members of the higher classes could have it cast upon themselves annually, to reverse aging-related sight or hearing loss, or to correct macular degeneration or damage brought about by exposure to damaging circumstances. (Which would start up again, most likely, after being cured, but take months to even be noticeable again, making an annual cure probably sufficient to keep the recipient close enough to 20/20 from cradle to grave.)

In 3rd edition, Remove Paralysis no longer affects non-magical forms of paralysis, so that's no longer an instant cure for permanant paralysis due to injury or whatever, but, IIRC, in ye olde days, it was also an option.

[Zaq]

To be kind of a spoilsport about it, I'm pretty sure that this is what they had in mind for "removing insanity."

Ignoring that, though, you get into the tricky problem of defining insanity, which is a pretty dicey issue at best. I could see an argument that it wouldn't cure, for example, clinical depression, because clinically depressed people as a whole don't fall under the common definition of "insane," really... but then whose definition of "insane" are we using? The patient's? The caster's? The GM's? Thorny problem, to say the least.

[RelentlessImp]

Ironically mind rape and mind wipe could erase past traumas. This does make for less dramatic characters, as mucat pointed out, and mind rape is..... well really vile.

Great, now all we need is for someone to bring up Sanctify the Wicked and we're off on that track again.

...Oops.

On topic, though, as others have said, you really only need to decide whether it makes the story better or worse. So long as you're not using it for a Deus Ex Machina, does it really make a difference?

[Coidzor]

Sounds useful if you have the scratch to burn it on traumatized indvidiausl for a proper debriefing/interrogation.

Beyond that, not really seeing applications of its anti-insanity effects.

[Maryring]

You don't use Restoration.

You use Heart's Ease.

Heart's ease cures emotional wounds in the same way that heal wipes away physical ones. ...

[Serpentine]

... but then whose definition of "insane" are we using? The patient's? The caster's? The GM's? Thorny problem, to say the least.

{Scrubbed}

[The Mentalist]

And asexuals.

Serp you win... again. Thanks for the avatar by the way.

[lord_khaine]

{Scrubbed}

No, i think thats another job for mind rape.

[Serpentine]

Only according to Some People. According to other Some People, cure disease is applicable.

[taltamir]

PS I am a psychiatrist. Sorry for posting even though you said not to.

I meant in game world, I would LOVE to hear what psychiatrists think of the implications I mentioned

Ironically mind rape and mind wipe could erase past traumas. This does make for less dramatic characters, as mucat pointed out, and mind rape is..... well really vile.

Well, it has a vile NAME... but the spell itself is not necessarily bad and can be used to cure mental trauma

Sounds useful if you have the scratch to burn it on traumatized indvidiausl for a proper debriefing/interrogation.

Beyond that, not really seeing applications of its anti-insanity effects.

you bring a good point... excluding total tippyverse then the cost is sufficiently high that only the richest could afford it

You don't use Restoration.

You use Heart's Ease.

nice... what level is it? what supplement is it from, and what is the casting cost?

{Scrubbed}

Oh wow... my hat goes off to you.

[Maryring]

Book of exalted deeds. It's a third level Cleric spell (and is also found on the spell-list of a PrC in that book, and the new Pleasure domain. It can easily be tossed into the regular spell-list of healer casters, such as the Healer), that removes fear effects, insanity and so on (but not charms and compulsions of the Charm/Dominate person variety).

It explicitly mentions healing lingering psychological trauma, such as from torture and leaves the target "feeling refreshed and at peace". And it even functions on one creature per level.

Now, the book mentions that it is a Permanent effect, but I think that's a mistake, as otherwise you'll end up immune to fear, insanity and so on by a third-level spell, and that won't do. Change the duration to instantaneous, as befits a healing spell, and you're good to go.

And it has no casting cost, but it requires a divine focus.

[Optimystik]

I would say restoration..... well restores you to your default state.

This. I'm not going to get into the "will it cure teh gay???" issue, though I'm sure Serp was being more tongue-in-cheek than anything else there.

Great, now all we need is for someone to bring up Sanctify the Wicked and we're off on that track again.

Actually, Sanctify does the opposite - it actively traumatizes the target, forcing them to relive all the evil deeds they've commited on a continuous loop until they inevitably feel remorse.

I presume it does this via a Scrooge analogue, whereby the spell shows them the less immediate consequences of their misdeeds that they may not have been aware of.

[Serpentine]

Pah! You know how I feel about teh ghey! Some People are very silly about it.

[Optimystik]

Pah! You know how I feel about teh ghey! Some People are very silly about it.

Indeed
Which reminds me, I need to bump the Beefcake thread...

[deuxhero]

Book of exalted deeds. It's a third level Cleric spell (and is also found on the spell-list of a PrC in that book, and the new Pleasure domain. It can easily be tossed into the regular spell-list of healer casters, such as the Healer), that removes fear effects, insanity and so on (but not charms and compulsions of the Charm/Dominate person variety).

It explicitly mentions healing lingering psychological trauma, such as from torture and leaves the target "feeling refreshed and at peace". And it even functions on one creature per level.

Now, the book mentions that it is a Permanent effect, but I think that's a mistake, as otherwise you'll end up immune to fear, insanity and so on by a third-level spell, and that won't do. Change the duration to instantaneous, as befits a healing spell, and you're good to go.

And it has no casting cost, but it requires a divine focus.

I think that it means that it goes away on a dispel.

[Optimystik]

I think that it means that it goes away on a dispel.

Yes, but it also means that it stays on until dispelled, like he said.

Whereas instantaneous cannot be dispelled, but can be overwritten.

[Maryring]

Yeah, the problem is that the spell likens itself to things like Heal and Restoration. Instantaneous effects that remove negative effects and cure ability damage. Heart's Ease is in many ways a healing spell, except the only ability damage it cures is wisdom damage (and not drain) and it specifically cures traumas. Making it permanent just makes it a lot wonkier, because now it suddenly makes you immune to fear and confusion effects "forever" while a Dispel Magic can suddenly give you 2d4 points of wisdom damage. You save yourself a LOT of headache by making it instant.

[huttj509]

I think the idea behind making it permanent was that it removes the trauma. Not for a period of time, but forever. I doubt it was intended to pre-cure future trauma at all.

But yes, I agree Instantaneous to match the cure spells would have been more transparent.

[Maryring]

Yup, hence why I make it instant. Otherwise, RAW would support that it cures any future trauma and fears instantly forever until a dispel magic hits you.

[TDB Lady]

I'm glad this topic came up.

My group plays only with core spells.

My group just rescued a group of people being held as slaves. The women were being used in a brothel. We are now hoping to get everyone safely back to town.

If we manage to do so, we want to help out as much as we can and were debating the greater restoration vs. heal to help the women settle back into a more normal life. None of us has the ability to cast either of these spells, but we have access to a priestess who can.

What do people think would be the better option since we only have core to work with?

Thx
TDB Lady

[Fax Celestis]

To be kind of a spoilsport about it, I'm pretty sure that this is what they had in mind for "removing insanity."

If that were what they meant, they should have italicized "insanity" to indicate it was a spell effect, no? They do that all the time with invisibility and invisibility.

[Agrippa]

I'm glad this topic came up.

My group plays only with core spells.

My group just rescued a group of people being held as slaves. The women were being used in a brothel. We are now hoping to get everyone safely back to town.

If we manage to do so, we want to help out as much as we can and were debating the greater restoration vs. heal to help the women settle back into a more normal life. None of us has the ability to cast either of these spells, but we have access to a priestess who can.

What do people think would be the better option since we only have core to work with?

Thx
TDB Lady

I'd try greater restoration.

[Roderick_BR]

EDIT: When I say psychiatrists need not apply I mean that they are obsoleted by the magic within the game world, I would love to hear from real world psychiatrists about what they think of this little trick

So is a lot of things in a world with magic. Heal skill? No need, as long as you can at least get a bunch of "Cure minor wounds", it can stabilize dying people, remove penalties from stepping on calltrops, and remove most "bleeding" effects.

Don't forget also that even death itself can be "cured" with high level spells, and Greater Restoration is a VERY high level spell.

Other good ol joke are curses. Imagine all those dozens of tales with someone cursed by some witch, item, place, family, whatever. A simple 3rd level spell can remove it, or if it's a bit hard, you can just try some other high level spells to remove all kinds of effects.

So, no, that's not really a big surprize by now.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm glad this topic came up.

My group plays only with core spells.

My group just rescued a group of people being held as slaves. The women were being used in a brothel. We are now hoping to get everyone safely back to town.

If we manage to do so, we want to help out as much as we can and were debating the greater restoration vs. heal to help the women settle back into a more normal life. None of us has the ability to cast either of these spells, but we have access to a priestess who can.

What do people think would be the better option since we only have core to work with?

Thx
TDB Lady

Remove Disease and some Cure spells are probably going to be sufficient.

[tiercel]

Had this issue pop up in a previous campaign of mine -- a significant NPC had serious mental issues (CG adventurer trapped in the Nine Hells for several years, using magical disguises to go unnoticed until she could be freed by the party).

I pretty much decided that use of heal/greater restoration/etc. could provide temporary surcease when she started having a "bad day" due to the weight of all the things she saw and did while trapped, but anything that didn't wipe out her memories and experiences (or, more positively, extended roleplaying + Sense Motive/Diplomacy + atonement) wouldn't keep her mental issues (not to mention alignment issues) from coming back.

Of course, it didn't help that the (LE) BBEGs were also preying on her fractured psyche once she managed to escape the Hells.

[Maryring]

When in doubt, use Heal. Heal cures everything that isn't drain.