Optimizing Sorcerer Challenge

[theos911]

(If you saw my guard thread, this is same pc but as half-elf pally) In my campaign my friend has a unoptimized half-elf pally. He's effective in combat, but less so outside of it. At level 10 he's looking to enter sorcerer. He wants to be an evocation/blasty type. He's not becoming evil; he is still a righteous crusader, but he wants to blow stuff up with magic. I'm looking for ideas for spell choices and feats(especially which metamagic would work best for evocation). Ok playgrounders, let us see how well/if you can whip him into shape.


*btw he's planning on taking only 4 sorcerer levels before prestiging out.

[imperialspectre]

There is no way to dip 4 levels in sorcerer starting at ECL 10 and not suck, unless your first 10 levels all advance sorcerer casting via racial HD and such. A half-elf paladin 10 is about as bad as it gets without monk, soulknife, or NPC class levels, but starting to take levels in a class that doesn't advance anything the character is already good at is just going to end in disaster.

Retrain the guy to something like Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 3, and he'll be fairly useful if he spends his spell slots on buffing himself. If he insists on casting blasting spells, retrain him to Cleric 10, give him a Karma Bead and a couple other caster level boosters, and tell him to memorize Flame Strike. He'll still be suboptimal, but at least it keeps most of the flavor and he can have defensive spells with heavy armor.

[theos911]

I'm aware half-elf pally is suckish(It was his first character). Oddly enough his second character was a.... monk.... a drunk monk.

What I'm asking is how to make the best of his poor choice. I'm not going to slaughter him with stuff his cr should be able to handle. It's supposed to be fun, so I'll work with what he gives me. So, I'm loooking for how to get the best out of his sorcerer levels. btw i missed it early on, but his prestige classes will be advancing his arcane and diving casting(not at same time). Basically he has a choice, adv his arcane casting still in low levels while his ecl is in teens, or adv his half-casting divine casting. He's in a tight spot, but he, as I enjoy the character. I only wish to help him make the most of his arcane power, so any suggestions on spells or feats?

[PId6]

Well, Abjurant Champion is a must. The 5th level sets his CL equal to his BAB, which is the only way to get any sort of synergy from paladin 10. The only thing I can come up with that comes close to salvaging this is:

Paladin 10/Sorcerer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 1/Sacred Exorcist +X, advancing arcane casting every time.

Tell him to focus on spells like Scorching Ray and Wings of Flurry, both of which have good returns from high CL (which he will have due to Abjurant Champion). Let him pick (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED (technically sorcerers can't do that; but that's stupid) and tell him to also take Shield. Practiced Spellcaster is important since it boosts his CL (though Abjurant Champion mitigates this a bit).

[theos911]

He is adamantly against any abjurant champ. I mentioned it as a good way to quickly help his spells, and also as about the linch point for almost every gish build ever. Idk what's wrong with him, but i guess since it has abjurant he thinks it doesn't fit his evocation build. Although honestly, I would like to see him not use it, not because I have some dislike of it, but because it is kinda in conflict with his plans. His build is break,bust, and blow up-- not boost,buff, and bunker down. Sorry to be nitpicky about it, but thanks so far.

[PId6]

Well, without Abjurant Champion 5, I can't imagine how he can actually deal even mediocre damage via spells. Practiced Spellcaster, Scorching Ray, Wings of Flurry if he actually gets that high, to make the best of a terrible situation. You're going to have to scale back combat a lot. 8/10 of the paladin levels are doing pretty much nothing for him that warrior levels can't do almost as well.

[theos911]

He plans to become a Fist of Raziel, so those paladin levels are giving extra smites that FoR is going to superman-ify

[PId6]

He plans to become a Fist of Raziel, so those paladin levels are giving extra smites that FoR is going to superman-ify

That's actually a decent paladin PrC. I just don't see why he wants to take sorcerer levels. If he wants to blow stuff up, tell him to buy an Amulet of Fireballs. Going into a full casting class now, much less with the intention of blasting, is beyond underpowered; I really do find it difficult imagining a better way to weaken myself besides taking truenamer in place of sorcerer.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

If he has to blow things up how about swordsage 1. With 3rd level mauners you've got. . .

Burning Blade-+1d6+6 fire damage to all your attacks for the round
Burning Brand-gain +5ft reach during your turn and do fire instead of normal damage.
Deathmark-do aoe fire 6d6 centered on a foe you drop.
fire riposte-immeadiate action 4d6 fire damage to someone who hits you.
Holocaust Cloak(stance)-5 fire damage to any adjacent foe that hits you in mellee.

Then give him a reflavored Ruby Knight Vindicator as per the adaption section of RKV that works for his god and uses desertwind as it's required school and one of it's two granted schools.

[Kylarra]

I'll second the idea of just using swordsage rather than trying to haphazardly add sorcerer levels to the mix. Adapted RKV is a good one too.

[mint]

I remember skimming through a forgotten realms book, probably champions of valor. It had a bunch of ACFs for paladins. I think one of them did something to the effect of letting the paladin fill paladin slots with any arcane (wizard?) spells known. Maybe you could do something with that. Sorry I can't remember any more details.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Sword of the Arcane Order IIRC

[lsfreak]

Yep. Get him Sword of the Arcane Order, from Champions of Valor, and drop sorcerer. It'll be a lot more worthwhile in the long run. Biggest problem is that it's keyed off Int, which is the only stat you *don't* need to be good in combat for a paladin.

Alternatively, point him to refluffing and building a cleric in a specific way (there's another thread or two going on this right now). He gets things like Flame Strike and Firestorm that are good blast spells. But it sounds like that won't work.

[Keld Denar]

Basically, what everyone has said is that there are some pretty decent ways for him to do what he wants to do, and there are some ways that I can almost garuntee he'll regret once he sees how bad they are. Sure, Abjurant Champion has some abilities that affect abjurations, but the MOST important 3 abilities (full BAB, full CL, and the 5th level ability that sets your CL equal to your BAB) are great for ANY caster. If the name bugs him, just call it Sorcerous Champion or something and be done with it. Its one of the few classes that will streamline the 2 things he wants to do in a way that isn't gonna feel completely weak. Heck, he's never gonna be able to overcome the SR that a fair number of undead and outsiders have above level 10 (unless he uses Conjourations to blast, like Lesser Orb of Fire) and hes not even really gonna get any decent nukes until ECL 16 to 18, depending.

The problem is that if you don't tie things together, you end up being as effective as a 10th level Paladin or a 4th level Sorcerer (since you only have enough actions to do one at a time) when everyone is as effective as a 14th level whatever. The 4th level blaster Sorcerer isn't gonna be able to kill anything with his spells, and the defocus from Paladin keeps you from fulling bringing the Paladin abilities to bear. Also, without higher level Sorcerer spells, metamagic is gonna be worthless to you, as you won't even have high enough slots to cast GOOD blasts, much less add metamagic to those good blasts.

Fist of Raz also only progresses Divine Spellcasting classes, so if the player is intent on going into Fist of Raz, his Sorcerous spellcasting is going to be truncated depressingly short.

If the DM allows rebuilding, a standard Sorcadin build is:

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8

Which, at ECL 10 would have the casting of an 8th level Sorcerer (4th level spells) and fight about as well as an 8th level Sorcerer, especially if you cast a buff spell or two before mixing it up in melee. Get a good blasty spell and use it as your ranged attack (or better yet, get Whirling Blade, so you can use your melee prowass as a ranged blasty effect). Get a Spellstoring Weapon so you can store a good low level blasty effect (like a Lesser Orb or Vampyric Touch) and deliver it through your melee attack for added synergy. Get Arcane Strike so you can channel your spells into mini arcane blasts of energy every time you strike someone.

There are good ways to do what your friend wants, and there are REALLY bad ways. Help him see this.

[Pluto]

What I'd do:
Scribble out a PrC with Sorcerer spell advancement, armored casting, channeling, decent HP, 2 good saves, full BA, Caster Level=class level+10. Give it some abilities synergistic with the Paladin (maybe spend Turn Undead attempts as a swift action for 1-round melee boosts like +Cha to attack for a round, speed bonuses, flight, energy resistance, &c). Apply familiar-like abilities to the guy's mount.

Tack on BA +10 and Turn Undead prerequisites, and you shouldn't have any problems, provided that the rest of the party is made of characters with more coherent builds. (I mean, it might look impressive, but at level 20, he'll be using Cone of Cold next to the Wizard's Maw of Chaos.)

Or just give a Feat to cast Sorcerer spells from Paladin slots at CL=class level. Use the Hexblade/Spellthief Spells Known progression and it shouldn't have any problems.

edit:
Out of the printed rules, this guy is pretty much SOL. You might adapt Abjurant Champion to focus on Evocations (add the class level to damage instead of AC, auto-enlarge and auto-quicken Evocations spells instead of Extending and quickening Abjurations).

And without changing anything? Arcanamach might work. But good choices are slim.

[Prodan]

Could steer him towards Suel Arcanamach.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Could steer him towards Suel Arcanamach.

I would say +1 to this but IIRC Suel Arcanamach don't have access to either evocation or conjuration, so that may put a damper on his blasting ideas

[Prodan]

What does it have access to?

[arguskos]

What does it have access to?

Abjuration, Divination, Illusion, and Transmutation.

[Prodan]

Abjuration, Divination, Illusion, and Transmutation.

I think I might be able to find a blasting Transmutation spell or two.

So far:
Belker Claws, Sor/Wiz 2, SpC

Yeah, not good for blasting.

[Kylarra]

Alternatively respec as a duskblade completely. You lose your paladin abilities, but get your blast-gish on.

[theos911]

ok, several things

- I am the DM, and while a rebuild is not something i forbid, I discourage it.
- He has his master plan that takes him WAY into epic, it is follows

Pall10, sorcerer 4, spellsword 10 and Fist of raziel 10, he will be alternating off each lvl for spellsword and FoR. **Note I use a homebrewed spellsword** then he was going to finish with vassal of bahamut 10, and then eldritch knight or something like that.

I've tried to explain to him that at lvl 54 your divine casting will be lvl 19(llvl 19 HALF CASTING THAT IS), and your arcane will be 13, plus some little bit of half casting from vassal of bahamut that wont matter anyway.

Thanks for your help, and I'll see if I can change his mind.

**my homebrew spellsword has 9/10 cl progression, but gets all of it's abilities about a lvl later.**

checked sword of the arcane order, it's for azuth and mystra followers only, he is a Bahamut follower...

[theos911]

IDEA!!!
I think I'll just design a Bahamut version of sword of the arcane order. It will do sorcerer casting since Bahamut is a dragon, and to enter you must be a vassal of Bahamut. DONE!!!

Spark of Bahamut's Grace

Prerequisites- Paladin of Bahamut 5, or a Vassal of Bahamut

Benefit- You can use your paladin spell slots to cast sorcerer spells. You must have a minimum charisma of 10 + the spell's level to cast it, and the save DC of the spell is equal to 10 + your cha modifier. These spells can be taken from the sorcerer spell list. To learn a spell from the sorcerer list, you must train with a cleric or Bahamut in a temple to the Platinum Dragon. You must spend one day in training for each spell you wish to learn. You know sorcerer spells as if your sorcerer level was equal to your caster level. Irregardless of caster level, you may not know any spells higher than level 4 by virtue of this feat. You may continue to use your paladin slots for divine spells as well as arcane spells without penalty. Through your devotion to the platinum dragon, you have learned to cast spells freely in armor, as the dragon himself casts freely in his armor. You do not suffer an arcane spell failure chance when casting sorcerer spells using your paladin slots.

Ok so that just eliminated his need for spellsword completely, his FoR now advances his sorcerer spells by virtue of advancing his divine casting.

So, now he keeps his full BAB to 20, and loses 1 caster lvl, and is thus 1 lvl behind in getting epic divine casting. He just went from suck to SOAR!!!

Now, I need 2 things

-Anyway to increase paladin spells per day
-Anyway to allow the paladin higher than 4th. level spells

[Hand_of_Vecna]

That would be better than splashing sorceror, but still CL 7 4th lvl evocation spells aren't a big threat at ECL 14. Might be okay with practiced spellcaster and serenity (that's the name of the cha to paladin spells feat right)?

Did you run my swordsage idea past him? A desert wind/RKV varient is very easy to imagine for Bahamut.

If your ok with a little rebuilding let him use the harmonious knight varient http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/champions_of_valor.zip so he has bardic music and let him qualify for sublime chord via your homebrew feat. He'll be pretty sweet at level 20 with 9th lvl spells, BAB 15 and 10th level pally abilities. There's room for improvment too if he takes another PrC to advance sublime chord casting.

[Keld Denar]

Serenity transfers all of your Cha based abilities to Wis, rather than your Wis based casting to Cha.

[tiercel]

Another approach would be finding a way/class/Prc/feat/in-game reason to allow UMD as a class skill. (He could go straight cross-class, but that would be... even more tedious, especially as he's not likely to have that many skill points as it is.)

With a decent charisma mod and some ranks in UMD (possibly with an item to help out -- if nothing else a circlet of persuasion always pleases), your paladin could grab a staff of some sort and have some magical backup to his classic pally smiting etc.

[theos911]

**Will post more later after looking at some ideas**

He is currently pally 6, not 10 yet.

**Oh and btw I've got "all" the books except:
Errotic Fantasy
Enemies and Allies
Dungeon Survival Guide

"all" meaning everyone on the wikipedia list at least, I'm slowly working on nabbing the Forgotten realms ones, but I've already gotten champions of valor.

Thank you for your input, but harmonious knight is Milil patron only thing, and the spark of Bahamut I just made is a bahamut thing... see the problem?

I suppose my spark of Bahamut could give UMD as a class skill, it would fit. Though, UMD isn't what he's looking for; He's looking for shooting fire from his face. The whole Spark of Bahamut thing will get his attention. Still looking into swordsage...

Ok desert wind does not fit him, he is a greatsword charger, so stone dragon fits him best.

I just started reading ToB, so I'm not an expert, but it seems he wouldn't get those 3rd. level maneuvers you mentioned until level 5 swordsage. Now that I have read swordsage and some maneuvers, I've made 2 conclusions. ToB is awesome! and while swordsage is also awesome, I think my Spark of Bahamut better accomplishes what he wanted.

I'm still looking for ways to increase pally spells per day or increase their overall level of spells known, since theirs cap at lvl 4.

[theos911]

Alright here's how he'll get bardic music for sublime chord-

Chorus of the Heavens

Prerequisites: Alignment- Good, Perform(Any)-10, Listen-5, Must be able to cast Zone of truth

Benefit- Some individuals gain the ability to influence others with music through innate talent or study; You have learned to master music by virtue of your divine grace and ability to purify fact from fiction into a beautiful harmony. You are treated as having the bardic music ability; your effective bard level is equal to one-half of your total level in your divine spellcasting class. Example - A 10th. level Paladin has an effective bard level of 5 for measuring all bardic music effects. This paladin could use: Countersong, Fascinate, or Inspire Courage up to a maximum of 5 times per day. Upon reaching Paladin level 11th. the paladin does not gain any new bardic music abilities or uses.Upon reaching Paladin level 12, the Paladin's effective bard level becomes 6. He may now use Suggestion and his uses per day increase from 5 to 6.

**I'm, going to post my 2 feats in the homebrew section**

[Godskook]

He is adamantly against any abjurant champ. I mentioned it as a good way to quickly help his spells, and also as about the linch point for almost every gish build ever. Idk what's wrong with him, but i guess since it has abjurant he thinks it doesn't fit his evocation build. Although honestly, I would like to see him not use it, not because I have some dislike of it, but because it is kinda in conflict with his plans. His build is break,bust, and blow up-- not boost,buff, and bunker down. Sorry to be nitpicky about it, but thanks so far.

You seem to be confused as to what Abjurant Champion offers. It offers:

1.The ability to not die. Every character needs this. This ability comes in several forms.
1a.Incredibly good HD for a caster prestige class. d10s are phenomenal, and that alone should be really, really appreciated.
1b.Really good AC, at no gp cost. Seriously, he can stop wearing armor now, and still do better than he most likely was in the armor. Arcane Preperation + Greater Luminous Armor + Shield = more AC than he's seeing now.
2.THe ability to cast what spells he can, well. This is another side of #1b. GLA + Shield means no Arcane Spell Failure. Which in turn means he can cast these spells from the front line, knowing they'll at least go through. This is not school specific, and works equally well with evocation as it does with abjuration.
3.The ability to hit things with your sword better through better BAB than you'll find in 90% of caster prestige classes.
4.The ability to not be laughed at by every dispel/counterspell wizard in the school.

So, to sum up, what it offers is:
1.Not dying.
2.Avoid ASF so spells(including evocations!) work
3.Hit things better with sword
4.Not get shut down by default by any caster build focused on dispel magic

These are all things that an Evoker Paladin would want. Especially when they're realizing this really, really late in their build.

[mint]

I think the spark of Bahamut homebrew thingy is the way to go.
At some point, maybe it becomes more reasonable to have him rebuild rather than changing and adding rules to fit a flawed concept.

If you want to play nice, you could rule that the arcane spells count as paladin spells. That way he can blast with swift actions if he has battle blessings from CC.