Questions About Level Adjustment

[Eloi]

I was wondering about Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level. Like, say I have a Level 1 Succubus Paladin, with an LA of +6, what does that mean exactly? Does that mean they are treated as if they are Level 7, basically? Do they get that many levels in their class? Please explain the concept to me, because its really confusing for someone unfamiliar with using monsters-as-characters.

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Level Adjustments are WotC's way of balancing the system. You add a level adjustment to your actual class levels but do not gain any other benefits from leveling up because of it. The +6 is basically saying "the benifits granted by being this is comparable to having 6 levels of actual character classes. As such you gain those abilities instead of taking those six levels. So if you were a paladin with a +6 level adjustment you would effectively be a 7th level character. With only one level of actual class benefits.

[Eloi]

Level Adjustments are WotC's way of balancing the system. You add a level adjustment to your actual class levels but do not gain any other benefits from leveling up because of it. The +6 is basically saying "the benifits granted by being this is comparable to having 6 levels of actual character classes. As such you gain those abilities instead of taking those six levels. So if you were a paladin with a +6 level adjustment you would effectively be a 7th level character. With only one level of actual class benefits.

That sounds decidedly suck-ish. But thanks for explaining it to me.

[PersonMan]

Yes. However, some monsters also have Racial Hit Dice(RHD), which are also added to your levels and LA to get your ECL. So a Succubus would have 6 levels of Outsider, 1 level of Paladin and +6 LA, meaning the character is ECL 13. Which sort of sucks, and isn't usually worth it.

[AmberVael]

That sounds decidedly suck-ish. But thanks for explaining it to me.

And now you know that WotC's way of balancing the system isn't actually balancing.

[Eloi]

Yes. However, some monsters also have Racial Hit Dice(RHD), which are also added to your levels and LA to get your ECL. So a Succubus would have 6 levels of Outsider, 1 level of Paladin and +6 LA, meaning the character is ECL 13. Which sort of sucks, and isn't usually worth it.

Well that does suck, as the role-playing implications of that are awesome.
...unless you are Tiefling with Succubus ancestry. That'd be +1 LA bringing you to an ECL 2, with one level in paladin.
Hm...

[PersonMan]

Yeah. LA is basically WoTC saying "No, don't play that! Alright, you want to? Well, fine, but you'll....um...need to pay levels! Yeah, for the abilities! To....'balance' it! Yeah!"

[G3N3R3L GHOST]

Now you are cooking with gas. IMO there is no substitute for actually getting a level in some sort of class. Level adjustments hurt your optimization in most cases.

[DragoonWraith]

Very, very few races or templates are worth their LA or RHD. Wizards essentially thought players "shouldn't" be playing those, so they intentionally over-compensated the LA/RHD in an effort to dissuade players from playing them. It's incredibly, incredibly stupid, but that's how it is.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Urge to pimp balanced ECL variation rising...

[Oslecamo]

Very, very few races or templates are worth their LA or RHD. Wizards essentially thought players "shouldn't" be playing those, so they intentionally over-compensated the LA/RHD in an effort to dissuade players from playing them. It's incredibly, incredibly stupid, but that's how it is.

And honestly they tought right for once. At will greater teleport and etherealness just shouldn't be on the hands of the players at level 7. Monsters just weren't designed to be used by PCs.

That's why I did my monster classes in my sig that re-makes monsters to make them player-useable whitout costing levels.Here. So you can play a succubbus from level 1, but you only gain the stronger abilities at higher levels plus making sure those abilities keep geting stronger as you grow past level 6-7.

The succubbus for example ends up like this:

Spoiler

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HD:d8
{table]Level|Bab|Fort|Ref|Will|Feature
1|+ 0|+0 |+0 | + 2| Body of temptation, Corrupter initiate, +1 Cha
2|+ 1|+0 |+ 0| + 3|Demon, Gifted, Change Shape
3|+ 1|+ 1|+1 | + 3|Lesser Corruptor, +1 Cha
4|+ 2|+ 1|+ 1| + 4|Wings, Abyss skin, +1 Cha
5|+ 2|+ 1|+ 1| + 4|Corruptor, +1 Cha
6|+ 3|+ 2|+2 | +5 |Kiss, +1 Cha
7|+ 3|+ 2|+ 2| + 5|Greater Corruptor, +1 Cha

[/table]

Skills:8+int modifier per level, Class skills are Bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, knowledge(any), concentration, search, spot, listen, sense motive, use rope, profession(any), disguise.

Proefeciencies:only her natural weapons.

Features:
Body of temptation: The succubbus loses all other racial bonuses and gains outsider traits. She's an outsider with base speed 30 feets and two claws as natural attacks, each dealing 1d6+Str modifier damage.

She also gains a bonus to natural armor equal to her Cha modifier.

Corrupter initiate: Use detect good, detect thoughts, charm person as SLAs twice per day per HD. DC=10+1/2HD+Cha modifier. If she multiclasses for an arcane/divince class she can count her succubus levels as levels of that class for purposes of CL and for the purposes of learning new spells and geting new spell slots. So for example, a succubus 3 who took 1 level of sorceror could choose to have CL 4, get 3 2nd level spell slots, 1 1st level spell slot, 1 2nd level spell known and 1 0th level spell known. She wouldn't get the spell knowns and spell slots of a sorceror 3 however. She would get the familiar ability, but succubus levels wouldn't count for it.

If the succubus multiclasses into cleric, she may use Cha as her main Casting stat instead of Wis, but she can't take any domains if she does so.


Ability increase:The succubus gains +1 Cha at levels 1, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.


Demon:gain resistance to electrecity and poison equal to her HD, and resistance to fire, acid and cold equal to half her HD. Plus telepathy 40 feets plus 10 feets for each extra HD from here. Also she gains the evil and chaotic subtypes and her attacks with natural and manufactured weapons count as chaotic and evil for bypassing DR.

Gifted:Can use tongues on herself as a SLA 1/day for each HD it has. Also gains a bonus to listen and spot checks equal to her HD.

Change Shape:An succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid 1/day for each HD it has.

Spoiler

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* The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
* The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
* The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
* The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
* The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
* Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
* The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
* The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
* Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Lesser corruptor:Use sugestion as SLAs once per day per HD. DC=10+1/2HD+Cha modifier.


Wings:develops wings allowing her to fly at a speed of 50 feets with average maneuverability.

Abyss skin: gains DR/cold iron or good equal to half her HD and SR equal to 11+HD.

Corruptor: Use charm monster as a SLA once per day per HD. DC=10+1/2HD+Cha modifier.

Kiss:A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity. The succubus’s kiss or embrace bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 10+1/2 HD+Cha modifier Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion. The DC for removing the negative level is the same, except that it demands a fortitude save.



Greater corruptor:The succubus can now use ethereal jaunt and teleport 1/day as SLAs for each 4HD it has.

A succubus with 12 HD or more can use greater teleport SLA instead of the teleport SLA.

[DragoonWraith]

And honestly they tought right for once. At will greater teleport and etherealness just shouldn't be on the hands of the players at level 7. Monsters just weren't designed to be used by PCs.

LA: -- makes sense, for the most part. I'm fine with eliminating obviously uneven monsters from PC play. But those that have things like you describe, and an actual playable LA, are very rare.

That's why I did my monster classes in my sig that re-makes monsters to make them player-useable whitout costing levels.Here. So you can play a succubbus from level 1, but you only gain the stronger abilities at higher levels plus making sure those abilities keep geting stronger as you grow past level 6-7.

Which is why I'd have thought you would know better than most how unplayable they made most monster races... and how preposterous they were. Yes, a Succubus with at-will Greater Teleport is a problem, but it's hardly a signature ability of the Succubus. There are much better answers - like yours.

But most monster races that people look at - things like Gnolls and Bugbears - don't actually pose any such problems. They're still over LA'd/RHD'd.

[Sliver]

As far as I'm aware, you do get one feature of having high ECL that others with class levels instead of LA have as well. A succubus paladin 1 will still have the same wealth of a 7th level character, instead of a first level one.

[jiriku]

If your DM is willing to work with you to make monster LA more playable, a rule of thumb I use is to assume that ACTUAL level adjustment for a monster should be its printed LA/2 (rounded down), and then inspect it closely from there to see if it needs to be adjusted by +/- 1.

[Oslecamo]

LA: -- makes sense, for the most part. I'm fine with eliminating obviously uneven monsters from PC play. But those that have things like you describe, and an actual playable LA, are very rare.

Well, from my experience people want to play everything and anything that shows up in a MM and looks cool. Dragons for example.

Which is why I'd have thought you would know better than most how unplayable they made most monster races... and how preposterous they were. Yes, a Succubus with at-will Greater Teleport is a problem, but it's hardly a signature ability of the Succubus. There are much better answers - like yours.

But most monster races that people look at - things like Gnolls and Bugbears - don't actually pose any such problems. They're still over LA'd/RHD'd.

You also need to take in acount Wotc design philosophy. They think that wizards will be throwing fireballs and clerics will be healing in battle and that weapon focus is totally worth a feat. Heck +1 Str is worth an epic feat. By those standards bugbears and gnolls aren't over-LAd.

Basically, hoping for Wotc to hit LA right when they can't hit spells, feats and classes right would be asking somewhat too much.

In some cases it actualy ended up kinda overpowered like feral and mineral warrior.

And there's no such thing as over-RHd. PCs should not by any means get more HDs than their ECL otherwise it opens up the doors for all kinds of problems.

Sliver:Don't forget you also get higher stats as the MM monsters are assumed to have rolled 10 in everything and then added the modifiers.

[Endarire]

Level Adjustment is WotC's way of saying, "We want you to play a stereotype." Really. A dwarf has more special bonuses than a hobgoblin, yet who has a level adjustment?

In truth, LA is approximately equal to CR. A CR7 is meant to be an even match for a level 7 character, though certain abilities (like at-wills) are more useful over the course of a campaign instead of a fight or 3. A fair LA system is DM's judgment.

A succubus has various at-wills that make her most effective out of combat. Charm monster at will is handy, but a level 7 character can cast it. Ethereal jaunt is handy for escape or scouting, but a wall of force will stop it.

I'd place a succubus with 1 class level as ECL9, including racial hit dice. She lacks the sneak attack of a Rogue, the spell of a full caster, and the HP of a front-liner, but has her own special tricks.

[Greenish]

Level Adjustment is WotC's way of saying, "We want you to play a stereotype." Really. A dwarf has more special bonuses than a hobgoblin, yet who has a level adjustment?

But hobgoblins have positive total ability modifiers! Dwarfs have penalty to Charisma! Exclamation marks!

…Yeah, WotC designers are a bunch of speciesist. The designers are (assumedly) human, and humans are one of the best races… Coincidence? I think not. (…More… …ellipses…)

[Starbuck_II]

Very, very few races or templates are worth their LA or RHD. Wizards essentially thought players "shouldn't" be playing those, so they intentionally over-compensated the LA/RHD in an effort to dissuade players from playing them. It's incredibly, incredibly stupid, but that's how it is.

I like Nereids for good example of worth LA.
3 HD and 3 LA for instanteous all day Displacement, Deflection equal Cha, and other abilities is worth it.

[hawkingbird]

The designers are (assumedly) human, and humans are one of the best races… Coincidence? I think not. (…More… …ellipses…)

Humans are (unfortunately) the best race because they can do pretty much everything. however, they are also the most boring. seriously, a skill point and a feat is boring! everyone else get amazing bonuses but because humans get the skill point and feat, people like playing them. and for that reason I hate playing humans.

Also, I hate it how drow are +2 LA, and when I use them in my campaign they are only +1 CR. does not make sense because a single CR X monster should be a challenge to a single lvl X PC, with the PC just coming out on top. anyway, i'm gonna allow drow at +1 LA in my next campaign, maybe without the spell resistance just to even things out a little.

[Starbuck_II]

Humans are (unfortunately) the best race because they can do pretty much everything. however, they are also the most boring. seriously, a skill point and a feat is boring! everyone else get amazing bonuses but because humans get the skill point and feat, people like playing them. and for that reason I hate playing humans.

Also, I hate it how drow are +2 LA,

Drow are +2 because get +2 to 2 mental scores (good one like Int and Dex):
+2 Int/Cha, +2 Dex, -2 Con.
Better Darkvision that core races.
Good spell-like abilities (Faerire fire is like Glitterdust without blinding effect)
Decent weapons. And SR (which is decent vs enemies, block 2/3rd spells, unless fighting BBEG).

There are drawbacks like SR blocking healing, light Blindness, and Fluff issues (people dislike Drow).

They make awesome Wizard stat-wise (that alone deserves LA). With LA, they don't dominate as Wizards.

The SR issue make Cleric a logical favored class as you can't trust a healing spell to get through unless yours.

Really they are LA 1.75, better than LA +1, but almost not worth LA +2.

and when I use them in my campaign they are only +1 CR. does not make sense because a single CR X monster should be a challenge to a single lvl X PC, with the PC just coming out on top. anyway, i'm gonna allow drow at +1 LA in my next campaign, maybe without the spell resistance just to even things out a little.

A lv 2 Wizard can't affect a Drow most spells (SR). About 50% fail.
Now Summon Monster, Grease, Caltrops, and Acid Splash ignore SR, but that is it.

Now a Warrior type has an easier time, but then Drow a caster-fighting monsters. They are better vs casters.
Each monster has a certain weakness and a Strength.

[Flickerdart]

The amount of things worth LA can be counted on the fingers of one hand and all of them are +1 LA, and are worth it only for melee builds - losing caster levels isn't worth any abilities (except maybe the Black Ethergaunt, but that's because they give Wizard casting themselves).

UA's level adjustment buyoff system makes LAs of up to 3 manageable, as you can get rid of the entire LA eventually, and RHD can be creatively removed with cheese. There's also a bunch of stuff in Savage Species that can turn you into creatures if you really want to play them, and of course the hilariously broken Polymorph spells.

[Optimystik]

Some things at +2 LA are still worth it - Phrenic and Saint, for example.

[tiercel]

Most LAs seem sufficiently overpriced that an ECL of CR+LA seems more balanced than HD+LA. If you are going to negotiate LA, you might want to start your bargaining at the former.

To clarify: HD+LA *is* ECL by RAW, but most of the time it's a bad deal.

Of course, I'm old-fashioned. I *like* playing humans -- it's not like you can't overlay any weirdo personality you want onto a "boring" human. You don't need to be a shadow half-dragon catgirl to have personality (and being able to customize your skills and feats that much more, if anything, helps you tweak your mechanics toward your character's background/personality).

[hawkingbird]

What I meant by boring is that the racial bonuses they get are boring. I prefer the bonuses attributed to the other races. But this is getting off topic

I reckon you just need to discuss it with your DM and if you are the DM, you're God anyway so you can make all the decisions you want, but i still wouldn't go messing around with the existing LAs by more than 1 or 2. If you find that a player is too overpowered because the LA isn't enough, just ask (i.e. command) them to not take the next level and pretend that they've had that extra LA all along

[Oslecamo]

The amount of things worth LA can be counted on the fingers of one hand and all of them are +1 LA, and are worth it only for melee builds

Pixie and necropolitan would like to have a word with you.

[senrath]

I don't think necropolitan is technically +1 LA, though.

[Starbuck_II]

I don't think necropolitan is technically +1 LA, though.

Yeah, it cost you to lose a level and cost some XP. So it is basically 1.5 LA.
Granted, it isn't really a Level adjustment as you are lower level for XP adjustment.

[Runestar]

I do feel there are a few high-ECL monsters worth playing, such as the ghaele, centaur and black ethergaunt (assuming you can somehow circumvent the rp limitations). I do agree the list of playable monsters is very short though.

[Eloi]

Well can you put in your backstory you were originally Level 2 before losing a level to become a Necropolitan?

[PersonMan]

Well can you put in your backstory you were originally Level 2 before losing a level to become a Necropolitan?

I'm pretty sure that you need to be at least 3rd level to become a Necropolitan.