[3.5] TWF is EXPENSIVE!

[Choco]

We know that TWF does have it's advantages, but one of them is definitely NOT using the best of your WBL. A THW build can get a weapon with +10 worth of enhancements and abilities no problem, but a TWF build would need TWO of those (400,000g is a huge amount even at lvl 20).

So for those of you that have ran TWF builds at high levels, how have you coped with that?

[Marriclay]

the ranger i ran a while back found an admantine dagger and an adamantine scimitar in the loot he took from a dragon. It was early in his career, so I asked if I could turn them into weapons of legacy, which the DM allowed. Essentially, you just go through a couple extra side-quests to pump them up, and you're flying. Might not be enough if you're maximizing the value of your inventory, but it's definitely up there, and those side-quests get you more experience to boot

[Curmudgeon]

You buy the minimum enhancements you need, and use spells for the rest. You can get ordinary (not even masterwork) weapons boosted with Greater Magic Weapon. At higher levels a spellcaster can add Chain Spell and one casting will enhance the whole party's weapons for an entire day. Add Keen Edge if you need a wider threat range. So your 20 gp rapier becomes the equivalent of a +5 keen rapier with two spells.

[Ranos]

Use your WBL on the rest of your equipment.

[Arakune]

You buy the minimum enhancements you need, and use spells for the rest. You can get ordinary (not even masterwork) weapons boosted with Greater Magic Weapon. At higher levels a spellcaster can add Chain Spell and one casting will enhance the whole party's weapons for an entire day. Add Keen Edge if you need a wider threat range. So your 20 gp rapier becomes the equivalent of a +5 keen rapier with two spells.

That's one for the classic problem for the +5 special special special weaponx2 , but when you try for +1 specialx9 weaponx2 it still get's expensive.

[Gnaeus]

The DMG uses (Bonus Squared) x 2000 for all weapons.

My DM uses (Bonus Squared) x 900 for 1 handed weapons, and
(Bonus Squared) x1600 for 2 handed weapons.

It helps with the TWF problem, it makes it easier for mundanes to have a backup weapon or 2, and it generally lets the characters who need equipment the most have a little bit more of it.

[Choco]

That's one for the classic problem for the +5 special special special weaponx2 , but when you try for +1 specialx9 weaponx2 it still get's expensive.

and/or there are no casters in the party.

[Dairun Cates]

I found with my TWF rogue that's it's about being smarter with what you do with those enhancements instead of the enhancements themselves. Of course, to some extent, AC, and by extension flat +x bonuses, weren't that important in the long run since I was a melee rogue and had invisibility cast on my at most times. Only things with high flat-footed AC were too big of a problem.

Point is. Make that off-weapon count. In my case, I used my off-hand to have a weapon of undead bane since it allowed my rogue to at least get some moderate damage. The on-hand weapon was a rapier of subtlety so I could have high attack values and damage. Throw in crippling strike and my level 10 rogue was a pretty nasty little bugger.

But yeah. If you need a really good weapon that bad, you should pick one weapon to be your better weapon.

[AstralFire]

Get two +9s instead. Still not cheap, but you're really not losing a whole lot relative to the gold lost.

[Draz74]

Yeah, the TWF guy still shouldn't be spending more than about 200k gp on weapons IMO.

That means he can still get, for example, a +6 and a +8 weapon. That means he still has +12 total "cool stuff" on his weapons (assuming they're both +1 enhancement bonuses), while the guy with a single +10 weapon only has +9 "cool stuff."

If the TWF character picks weapon enhancements that synergize well with TWF style,* that should make up for the fact that he only gets each "cool stuff" effect on half his attacks.

*e.g. Wounding, in campaigns where not too many enemies are immune to ability damage.

[Pechvarry]

The DMG uses (Bonus Squared) x 2000 for all weapons.

My DM uses (Bonus Squared) x 900 for 1 handed weapons, and
(Bonus Squared) x1600 for 2 handed weapons.

It helps with the TWF problem, it makes it easier for mundanes to have a backup weapon or 2, and it generally lets the characters who need equipment the most have a little bit more of it.

That is flippin' interesting. Why have I never thought of implementing something like that?

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To make the problem worse, I daresay TWFers need higher attack bonuses than 2-handers. TWF penalties is only part of the equation -- it's much harder to amp up the attack roll on a full round action's worth of attacks vs a charger's single hit/round (charging smite, for instance). At least 3.0 damage reduction is gone. That was doubly horrid for TWF builds.

[lesser_minion]

I think my response would be along the lines of this:

Spoiler

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Bound:

Price: +20,000 gp total, for both items (+10,000 gp per item)
Property: Weapon or Shield
Caster Level: 7th
Aura: Moderate transmutation
Activation: --

An item carrying this property is magically linked to another item (which also carried this enchantment). The two items to be bound must be specified when the enchantment is created.

If this enchantment is successful, the bond between the two enchanted items becomes able to accept enchantments in its own right. In this respect, treat it as a single weapon, and a single shield. The weapon enchantments applied to the bond must be appropriate to at least one weapon in the bond.

A character wielding both items in a bound pair benefits from both sets of enchantments applied to the pair. For the purposes of the shield enchantments, the pair is treated as a shield with a +0 shield bonus and no armour check penalty.

Note that this quality is the only enchantment that needs to be applied directly to the bound pair - they don't need an enhancement bonus beyond the one applied to the bound pair.

Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armour.
Cost to create: 10,000 gp, 800 xp, 20 days.


Very preliminary, so... yeah. Probably not balanced yet. I'm actually surprised MIC didn't include something vaguely similar.

To make the problem worse, I daresay TWFers need higher attack bonuses than 2-handers. TWF penalties is only part of the equation -- it's much harder to amp up the attack roll on a full round action's worth of attacks vs a charger's single hit/round (charging smite, for instance). At least 3.0 damage reduction is gone. That was doubly horrid for TWF builds.

Er... what? Virtually all 3.0 Damage Reduction could be completely mitigated with Greater Magic Weapon. It wasn't an issue in the slightest.

It's 3.5 damage reduction, which mandates that you carry around thirty different weapons at all times or take penalties, that's hell for TWF.

[Irreverent Fool]

That is flippin' interesting. Why have I never thought of implementing something like that?

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To make the problem worse, I daresay TWFers need higher attack bonuses than 2-handers. TWF penalties is only part of the equation -- it's much harder to amp up the attack roll on a full round action's worth of attacks vs a charger's single hit/round (charging smite, for instance). At least 3.0 damage reduction is gone. That was doubly horrid for TWF builds.

I disagree. Most 2h characters make extensive use of power attack. A dedicated TWF character is generally only going to make his attacks at -2, significantly less than the penalty a dedicated 2h fighter is going to take when power attacking.

[Yuki Akuma]

If you're TWFing you don't really need particularly awesome weapons - most of your damage should be coming from somewhere else, like sneak attack, or dragonfire inspiration.

You can get most of the must-have weapon enhancements from your friendly neighbourhood spellcaster.

[Wolf Warhead]

You buy the minimum enhancements you need, and use spells for the rest. You can get ordinary (not even masterwork) weapons boosted with Greater Magic Weapon. At higher levels a spellcaster can add Chain Spell and one casting will enhance the whole party's weapons for an entire day. Add Keen Edge if you need a wider threat range. So your 20 gp rapier becomes the equivalent of a +5 keen rapier with two spells.

Greater Mighty Wallop might be a good one, too, I think. Of course, the list of spells shouldn't become too long, but that, Weapon of Impact and Greater Magic weapon can have a light mace do damage as a Colossal Light Mace of Impact +5 at higher levels.

Of course, just something like an empowered Fires of Purity can be fun, too.

[Lycanthromancer]

Just a thought, but you can fit on twice as many weapon crystals on a TWF'er as you can a THF'er, not to mention twice as many greater magic weapons and similar spells.

[aivanther]

Kensai PrC might help there.

Then again, if you're TWF you're already behind in effectiveness in a lot of other ways already.

[Yuki Akuma]

Kensai PrC might help there.

Then again, if you're TWF you're already behind in effectiveness in a lot of other ways already.

Unless you're a Rogue or a Bard with Snowflake Wardance and Dragonfire Inspiration, in which case you are awesome incarnate.

[Stompy]

If you're TWFing you don't really need particularly awesome weapons - most of your damage should be coming from somewhere else, like sneak attack, or dragonfire inspiration.

You can get most of the must-have weapon enhancements from your friendly neighbourhood spellcaster.

Agree.

You need auxiliary damage like the ones in the quote, or you'll end up spending a lot of feats (and double the money) to do the same thing a two-hander can do.

Rationale:

Spoiler

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Note that a greatsword is a 2d6+1.5str weapon. With TWF, a longsword and short sword swung together does 1d8+1d6+1.5str, assuming your strength bonus is a multiple of 2.

However, you have to spend a feat to do TWF, more to get the subsequent attacks, one to hit with both weapons on a charge, one to hit with both weapons and a standard, etc. Spending these feats will put you at around the damage output of the two-hander.

However, you are a lot more prone to disarmament, and you still have the -2 to hit. More over, against high DR targets, more of your damage is negated, and power attack (if you took that feat) does not apply to light weaponry.

Auxiliary damage like sneak attack is doubled, making TWF rogues scary damage dealers in many situations. Thus this is why auxiliary damage is the only reason I like TWF.

I played a TWF ranger in a Planescape game. I was useless in combat, mainly because everything had DR. (My eagle didn't help either.)

EDIT:

Kensai PrC might help there.

Kensai I believe only lets you get one weapon super buff. Besides, getting the 15+ DEX for a kensai is hard when you need a great STR for damage, CON so that you can live more, and INT 13+ for feat requirements.

[Ponce]

What I don't get is why you can't wield a one-hander in the offhand without additional penalty. Did they really think that doing 1d8 in stead of 1d6 would matter?

[Yuki Akuma]

What I don't get is why you can't wield a one-hander in the offhand without additional penalty. Did they really think that doing 1d8 in stead of 1d6 would matter?

This is a case of realism (well, "realism") rather than game balance.

Using two longswords is harder than using a longsword and a dagger.

[Greenish]

The DMG uses (Bonus Squared) x 2000 for all weapons.

My DM uses (Bonus Squared) x 900 for 1 handed weapons, and
(Bonus Squared) x1600 for 2 handed weapons.

It helps with the TWF problem, it makes it easier for mundanes to have a backup weapon or 2, and it generally lets the characters who need equipment the most have a little bit more of it.

In a game with those rules, I'd just two-hand a one-handed weapon. +1 Keen Scimitar has 1.5 less average damage (before counting crits) than a +1 Keen Falchion, but the latter costs 2.8k gold more.

I'm a cheap bastard.

To make the problem worse, I daresay TWFers need higher attack bonuses than 2-handers. TWF penalties is only part of the equation -- it's much harder to amp up the attack roll on a full round action's worth of attacks vs a charger's single hit/round (charging smite, for instance). At least 3.0 damage reduction is gone. That was doubly horrid for TWF builds.

A charger with just one attack per round will lose quite soundly to any decent TWFer. (At later levels.)

[Stompy]

What I don't get is why you can't wield a one-hander in the offhand without additional penalty. Did they really think that doing 1d8 in stead of 1d6 would matter?

There's a feat for that, but that is more feats you have to use for two weapon fighting.

[Lapak]

This question made me feel vaguely surprised that they haven't introduced a magic set of bracers (for example) that carry weapon enchantments and bestow them on whatever weapon you happen to wield. It feels like there should be such a thing.

[Ponce]

This is a case of realism (well, "realism") rather than game balance.

Using two longswords is harder than using a longsword and a dagger.

LE SIGH

There's a feat for that, but that is more feats you have to use for two weapon fighting.

Oversized, right. Nothing quite like a feat that is half as good as weapon specialization, half of the time.

[lsfreak]

Make the most of your enhancements. A +1 shadowhand shadowstriking weapon can last a good long time and is a mere +5 weapon.

I disagree. Most 2h characters make extensive use of power attack. A dedicated TWF character is generally only going to make his attacks at -2, significantly less than the penalty a dedicated 2h fighter is going to take when power attacking.

Shock Trooper.
Also, TWF'ers generally do less damage a hit at a lower BAB. The second, especially, means they'll be trying to catch up.

[Person_Man]

Incarnate class: Can create an impressive incarnum weapon and boost it using class abilities (IIRC it goes up to +7 and can have a Save or Stun effect charged into it as a Move action), and he gets various buffs To-Hit and/or Damage via other soulmelds as well. Make your off hand weapon Skillful (increases BAB to 3/4, grants auto-proficiency) and the Incarnate can pull off some impressive TWF.

Ironsoul Forgemaster prestige class: Basically just an extension of the Incarnate. His capstone adds a Save or Daze effect to every attack with his imbued weapon.

Kensai prestige class: Can enchant both sides of a double weapon (or each of your fists or natural weapons separately) for a reasonable cost.

Anointed Knight prestige class: With a high Cha, a 2 level dip into this class gives your weapon sentience, including 2 lesser powers.

Ancestral Relic feat: Pick one item (usually a weapon). You can sacrifice treasure to improve that item, bypassing the need to sell stuff at the standard 50% mark down. Assuming your DM plays using standard wealth by level and doesn’t short change you because he knows you have this feat, this is a great choice for long running campaigns. Book of Exalted Deeds pg 39.

Mercantile Background feat: You can sell items for much higher then the standard 50%. Like Ancestral Relic, this is very useful for a long campaign, especially if you know your DM sticks to standard wealth by level. Player’s Guide to Faerun pg 41.

Unarmed Strike: There are various Swordsage and Monk/Psychic Warrior builds which have impressive unarmed damage, and thus don't require magic weapons to be useful.

Weapon spells: There are dozens of them. Holy Sword, Flame Blade, Thunder Lance, Ice Axe, Sand Scimitar, etc. A TWF Cleric or Gish would have few problems.

[Wolf Warhead]

What I don't get is why you can't wield a one-hander in the offhand without additional penalty. Did they really think that doing 1d8 in stead of 1d6 would matter?

With Greater Mighty Wallop it could be the difference between 4d6 and 6d6 damage

[lesser_minion]

What I don't get is why you can't wield a one-hander in the offhand without additional penalty. Did they really think that doing 1d8 in stead of 1d6 would matter?

Possibly. Remember all of the exotic weapons that did d10 damage instead of d8?

I can only really assume that this was another one-shot thing (like Toughness, which was intended for one shot games at low levels (and filling out obligatory feats on monsters)), or that it was assumed that most increases to damage would be multiplicative - i.e. that one point of damage would be about fifteen points extra damage later on.

[Gnaeus]

In a game with those rules, I'd just two-hand a one-handed weapon. +1 Keen Scimitar has 1.5 less average damage (before counting crits) than a +1 Keen Falchion, but the latter costs 2.8k gold more.

That's pretty much what I'm doing, Greenish. We do have a couple of PCs still using 2 handed weapons, but only for secondary qualities (Guisarme and Spiked Chain for ranged tripping.)