[3.5] 6th Level Cleric Now Needs 28 Turn Undeads for DMM

[balistafreak]

The title summarizes the problem.

It's ECL 6, looking to go segue straight into an E6 campaign.

I have already gotten up to 14 turns: 8 from the Undeath Domain and Extra Turning, 4 more from a single Nightstick (can't afford two with only 13K to spend, and I need some gear besides), and 2 more from a quick casting of Eagle's Splendor right after morning prayers, achieving a temporary 14 turns to Persist the day's spells with.

(For the curious, the spells being Persisted are Ice Axe for "massive" damage and Channeled Divine Shield for DR 10/evil, both 3rd level spells.)

For the lulz, I'm attempting to shoehorn in one more Persist into the equation, but it's not looking likely. I can acquire one more turn by shuffling the point-buy, but any further is too inefficent.

Raising Charisma beyond that is not an option, as the race, Anthropomorphic Bat, already has a Charisma penalty, and I sacrifice too much on other essential stats.. Enhancement boosts to Charisma won't achieve anything (I'm already casting Eagle's Splendor) unless they are +6 or greater, and even then the resources are probably more efficent elsewhere.

I've already spent all my extra feats on Extra Turning, so that's not an option. If there's a way to acquire even more feats/Extra Turning beyond what I'm aware (flaws, bonus feats from Domains), then tell me.

I have 5500 gold remaining after purchasing one Nightstick, if any other gear adds Turns. It's currently spent on some miscellaneous, make-my-life easier gear, nothing essential to the build, so it's all available for spending.

The last category I can think of is pushing some PrCs or base classes together somehow to acquire an additional Turn Undead pool - I'm not sure what this trick specifically needs or how it works, so if someone knows of it, would they please regale me?

Thanks in advance! Let the cheese commence.

[Jarian]

The simplest way would be to take a level of Dread Necromancer to get Rebuke Undead, which will stack with all of your Extra Turnings and such. Requires a nongood alignment.

Alternately, swap Turn Undead for Turn Dragons (Dragon Magic) or Destroy Undead (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) and take a level of Sacred Exorcist, giving you Turn Undead again.

Also, a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MIC) will give you another 2 turn attempts.

[Eldariel]

Reliquary Holy Symbol from MiC should help you. Using it with Craft Wondrous Items would get you all the turning you'll ever need.

[Douglas]

Don't forget you get 3 base just for having the ability. Or is your charisma so low that it negates that?

[balistafreak]

... cows, do Reliquary Holy Symbols stack?

They seem to be worded similiarly to Nightsticks.

Even if they don't, that's still 3 turns for 1000 gold and awesome. 4 turns to go.

EDIT: Oh wow, I did forget my base turns. That's embarassing. I was scraping by with a neutral Charisma of 10... and so I can play with the point buy to get one more turn... that's my four turns! Thanks!

[Jarian]

... cows, do Reliquary Holy Symbols stack?

They seem to be worded similiarly to Nightsticks.

It depends on whether you would prefer a flying DMG to the face or not, really.

[Keld Denar]

They do take up your neck slot, so you couldn't wear more than one at a time. Also, the way that TU attemps work (counting up, as opposed to counting attempts remaining), you couldn't get the benefit of more than one.

So, the short answer is no.

[balistafreak]

They do take up your neck slot, so you couldn't wear more than one at a time. Also, the way that TU attemps work (counting up, as opposed to counting attempts remaining), you couldn't get the benefit of more than one.

So, the short answer is no.

Alright, that's what I guessed (defaulting to the anti-cheese reading). I knew that you could only wear one at a time (unlike Nightsticks...) but didn't know how you counted them.

Okay, is there any way to get 7 more turns, to 28? At this point in time I think I'm stuck - I've used gear and boosted Charisma. Sacred Exorcist is not an option due to requiring 10 ranks of a skill, impossible at ECL 6.

[Jarian]

Okay, is there any way to get 7 more turns, to 28? At this point in time I think I'm stuck - I've used gear and boosted Charisma. Sacred Exorcist is not an option due to requiring 10 ranks of a skill, impossible at ECL 6.

Ask your DM if Radiant Servant Master of Radiance (Libris Mortis) grants TU instead of just stacking.

Drop of level of Cleric for Dread Necromancer.

Both get you a double pool.

[Glimbur]

Well, it is E6. Can't you just take more Extra Turning when you earn the XP to take more feats?

[balistafreak]

Ask your DM if Radiant Servant Master of Radiance (Libris Mortis) grants TU instead of just stacking.

Drop of level of Cleric for Dread Necromancer.

Both get you a double pool.

>.<

Can't believe I forgot that in like, 30 seconds.

I read up Master of Radiance. It makes it extremely clear that it stacks with Cleric levels, so no double pooling there. Pretty sure Dread Necromancer works, though.

And I plan to use my first few E6 feats on Extra turning - at least until I run out of Persistable spells.

[Jarian]

It really doesn't make it clear, as it gives you the Turn Undead (Su) ability, rather than, say, the Continued Advancement ability of Ordained Champion.

That said, Dread Necromancer is easier on your skillpoints and works without argument, so go ahead with that route.

[Darkmatter]

Unfortunately, unless you have the Improved Turning (not Extra Turning) feat, you only get 2 extra turns out of the Reliquilary Holy Symbol, meaning you're still short one turn attempt.

As long as you're looking for whatever cheese is possible, you can take the wording of divine metamagic literally (specifically "You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase") and use domains that let you turn or rebuke things other than undead. Earth domain (for example) gives you an additional 3+Cha mod turn attempts - if you're buffing your Cha it's worth more than the flat 4 bonus turn attempts you get for the Undeath domain. Assuming you're using Planning domain for Extend, you could dump it too, since an extra domain would be worth more than the extra turning feat you would sacrifice to get Extend back.

This would give you: 3+2 (Turn) + 3+2 (Plant) + 3+2 (Earth) +4 (nightstick) + 2 (holy symbol) = 21 turn attempts on the nose, assuming 10 Cha to start with. Each boost to Cha will give you 3 extra turn attempts, though, which is nice.

Just a thought, anyway.

[Jarian]

As long as you're looking for whatever cheese is possible, you can take the wording of divine metamagic literally (specifically "You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase") and use domains that let you turn or rebuke things other than undead.

Not unless you intentionally ignore the errata that specifies that it must be a Turn or Rebuke Undead attempt.

[Darkmatter]

Haha... I even read the errata and completely skipped that second mention in the descriptive text. Never mind then.

[balistafreak]

Unfortunately, unless you have the Improved Turning (not Extra Turning) feat, you only get 2 extra turns out of the Reliquilary Holy Symbol, meaning you're still short one turn attempt.

Oh duh. Two failed Spot checks now. I'm starting to feel old...

... except your Spot checks get better as you age...

And Jarian, I'm not really sure as to what makes it unclear. I'm reading the entry right now, and it says right there in the text that advancement/stacking, not two separate pools, occurs.

Feel free to point out that I've failed an Wisdom check, though. Wouldn't be surprised after those two Spots.

But yeah, Dread Necromancer.

[balistafreak]

New inquiry!

I can get 26 turns with two pools from Dread Necromancer and Cleric, a +1 base Charisma bonus, +2 Charisma-modifier bonus from Eagle's Splendor, a Reliquary Holy Symbol, a Nightstick, and two Extra Turning feats. Now I need two more.

The easiest way it seems to do that would be to get a last +1 Charisma-modifer bonus; with two pools, that'd give me two more turns. However, an enhancement bonus is not available (I'm already using Eagle's Splendor) and I only have 4.5K left for items.

How can I get +2 to Charisma that's not an enhancement bonus?

[dextercorvia]

The charm domain ability is a +4 once per day. I'm not sure if it enhancement or not offhand. It was printed in SpC.

[balistafreak]

The charm domain ability is a +4 once per day. I'm not sure if it enhancement or not offhand. It was printed in SpC.

It's an awesome untyped bonus.

Unfortunately, both of this particular character's domains are already bound up in the bonus feats of Extend Spell and Extra Turning, through Planning and Undeath. Would have worked otherwise.

[dextercorvia]

Refluffed sovereign speaker... Requires a feat though that is better spent on extra turning.

[balistafreak]

Refluffed sovereign speaker... Requires a feat though that is better spent on extra turning.

And I've already spent all my spare feats on Extra Turning. All the rest are bound up in DMM and one additional, completely essential feat.

And no, becoming a Human is not an option, no matter how much I wish it to be.

[dextercorvia]

Get alter self. Alter self to human, use the bonus feat for extra turning.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If your GM will let you handwave the whole Pelor thing, you could go with Radiant Servant. You've already got the feat prerequisites. Toss up as to if you can use the greater turning pool (since it's turning undead) to fuel DMM or not. If so, you win. Then, at level 5, you get a bonus Domain, so you win again.

[balistafreak]

... by the gods, that works.

I'm a 5th level Cleric, so I get my hands on Anyspell, a 3rd level Cleric spell.

Use it to prepare Alter Self.

Cast Alter Self. Become a human for 50 minutes, and gain Extra Turning.

Finish the day's prayers.

Pop back into Anthro Bat form.

Wait - can an Anthro Bat (monstrous humanoid) become a plain old human? I think Monstrous Humanoid is a subtype, so yes... but...

[Jack_Simth]

Wait - can an Anthro Bat (monstrous humanoid) become a plain old human? I think Monstrous Humanoid is a subtype, so yes... but...

Nope, Monstrous Humanoid is it's own type, sorry.

Oh, and you're Persisting the wrong spells. See, you're grabbing ones that will greatly increase your personal power... and if you do that well, you're going to make the other party members jealous, which increases the likelihood of a ban on the tactic. What you need to Persist are group buffs - Mass Lesser Vigor, that kind of thing.

[Keld Denar]

If your GM will let you handwave the whole Pelor thing, you could go with Radiant Servant.

There is no RSoP in E6. You can't take RSoP before ECL7, and E6 ends at...well...ECL6.

So...yea.

[Seatbelt]

I'd be afraid to multiclass out of cleric honestly. You never get more spells past ECL 6 so every lost cleric level is like losing a child...

[Eldariel]

... by the gods, that works.

I'm a 5th level Cleric, so I get my hands on Anyspell, a 3rd level Cleric spell.

Use it to prepare Alter Self.

Cast Alter Self. Become a human for 50 minutes, and gain Extra Turning.

Finish the day's prayers.

Pop back into Anthro Bat form.

Wait - can an Anthro Bat (monstrous humanoid) become a plain old human? I think Monstrous Humanoid is a subtype, so yes... but...

Monstrous Humanoid is a type just as Humanoid. Also, Alter Self cannot grant Extraordinary Special Qualities so no dice there. Turning could be a great idea for a 100 other reasons tough. And if it's E6, well, the bonus feats will keep you warm.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

New inquiry!

I can get 26 turns with two pools from Dread Necromancer and Cleric, a +1 base Charisma bonus, +2 Charisma-modifier bonus from Eagle's Splendor, a Reliquary Holy Symbol, a Nightstick, and two Extra Turning feats. Now I need two more.

The easiest way it seems to do that would be to get a last +1 Charisma-modifer bonus; with two pools, that'd give me two more turns. However, an enhancement bonus is not available (I'm already using Eagle's Splendor) and I only have 4.5K left for items.

How can I get +2 to Charisma that's not an enhancement bonus?

You're forgetting that by double-dipping both turn and rebuke you double-up on the benefit of Extra Turning:

Cleric Turn Undead: 3 (base) +3 (Cha with Eagle's Splendor) +8 (Extra Turning x2) = 14
Dread Necro Rebuke Undead: 3 (base) +3 (Cha with Eagle's Splendor) +8 (Extra Turning x2) = 14
Nightstick +4, Reliquary Holy Symbol +2, total turn/rebuke attempts: 34
You could take Improved Turning to get one more out of that holy symbol Extra Turning again and persist five six spells per day, or drop your Cha back down to 10 and save money by not buying a Night Stick and get your necessary 28/day.

[Jack_Simth]

I'd be afraid to multiclass out of cleric honestly. You never get more spells past ECL 6 so every lost cleric level is like losing a child...

Losing *one* level isn't so bad - you don't get access to new spells when going from Cleric-5 to Cleric-6, Practiced Spellcaster will handle caster level, and being short two spell slots isn't a big deal (one 3rd, one 2nd) ... plus there are feats that will net you extra spell slots, and feats aren't hard to come by in E6.