Party imbalance: Coming back in at level 1

[Totally Guy]

So your guy has died, and can't be brought back. You bring in a new character at level 1 irrespective of the power levels of everyone else.

I'm not saying it's a good idea or anything like that but I'd like to hear tales of times it's happened in practice. Whether it was as bad as can be imagined or whether it was cool and edgy.

Ever seen this sort of thing happen?

[Swordgleam]

The closest I got was in a 1st edition game where my mage died, so my cleric got brought back in at something like average party level +/- 1d2. I ended up a bit lower than most of the party, but I knew what I was doing much better than I had before so my cleric still ended up more powerful than my mage.

[VirOath]

No, but if it happened to me I would just roll a bard and play the cheerleader, annoy the heck out of the DM with vocal buffs. Roleplayed out.

If the DM wants to stomp on the effectiveness fun, I can find my fun elsewhere.

[Scribble]

If that happened to me I think I would make a Commoner with a Wisdom of 0 and put no ranks in Spot or Listen, and then he would wear a red shirt all the time...

[Alaris]

Honestly common in a lot of games. I've been lucky enough that the DMs who run for us do not. We usually come in one level lower than the lowest level party member.

Regardless, starting at level 1 is pretty painful, but common amongst a lot of DMs, and people shouldn't doom their characters because of it. Even if they try to die, they'll be level 1 again, so what's the point?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Honestly common in a lot of games. I've been lucky enough that the DMs who run for us do not. We usually come in one level lower than the lowest level party member.

Regardless, starting at level 1 is pretty painful, but common amongst a lot of DMs, and people shouldn't doom their characters because of it. Even if they try to die, they'll be level 1 again, so what's the point?

A few of those DMs think that is the actual rules and don't know about starting PC's above 1st level.

[Thiyr]

Speaking as a (admittledly new) DM that's actually planning on this pending PC death, I'll give my reasoning. First: E6 game, meaning power difference is going to be made up quicker. Second: If they didn't do that, they'd not get a bonus from early levels I'm tossing at them which was designed to be useful throughout the character's life. Third: Setting. In a setting based off the Exile/Avernum series, where the new PCs are regular people tossed into an exile that's pretty much untamed wilds from a nice, clean settled area, odds are against them having more than a class level. It's an easy way to get more people into the game, it's keeping everyone on the same level in terms of effort put into the character (meaning no character dying WBL shenanigans), and for what I hope to be a continued setting, it means that people can bring back old characters or make new ones as desired and know how that's going to work out. Everyone is already aware, as well, which helps. We'll see how it works out though.

[Coidzor]

Oh man. Anything beyond, say, 4th level and you're screwed. Unless you're so piddly that the monsters don't go after your plinkity as you're such a minor threat. Bard's probably one of the few things that'd have a chance of surviving long enough to get back somewhere near the party.

[Shpadoinkle]

It's a problem, and as the game progresses it only gets worse. Coming back in a level lower, fine. It kinda sucks, but you'll catch up after a couple sessions. Once the average party level reaches 4 or 5, most characters will have a hard time contributing to a party-level-appropriate encounter in a meaningful way at level 1

[dextercorvia]

It wasn't as big of a deal in 2e. By the time your party had enough xp to level up once, you were up to their previous level, at least early on. That was the only reason it was possible to dual class as a human. But xp scales different in 3.x. Unless the DM uses the rule that each character earns xp as though the entire party was at their level, I don't see you ever coming close to catching up.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

never dealt with it. . . our rule is usually you come back one level lower then you died at.

[Sliver]

Did anyone try to make the calculations?

Using the encounter calculator (srd) I chose a 3 level 10 PCs and a level 1 PC facing CR10 encounters. Until level 5, every encounter will level up the level 1 PC. He will get to level 6 before the others are halfway towards level 11 if they all started at zero points towards new level. When they reach level 7, the others just leveled up to 11. This whole mess takes 14 encounters, slightly above the average amount (assumed by the DMG) that should take a same ECL party to level up once.

While it's a lot of useless time for the low level player and highly depends on how many encounters per session they play, it doesn't sound that bad after I looked at the numbers.

[dextercorvia]

The problem is most dm's don't bother to calculate xp differently for one character than another. Also, if you are going strictly by the DMG, a character can only level up once per adventure.

[Sliver]

I'm pretty sure it's once per an encounter. But I can't find the rule at the moment (never actually seen it so...) could you quote or post the page it's on?

[VirOath]

Did anyone try to make the calculations?

Using the encounter calculator (srd) I chose a 3 level 10 PCs and a level 1 PC facing CR10 encounters. Until level 5, every encounter will level up the level 1 PC. He will get to level 6 before the others are halfway towards level 11 if they all started at zero points towards new level. When they reach level 7, the others just leveled up to 11. This whole mess takes 14 encounters, slightly above the average amount (assumed by the DMG) that should take a same ECL party to level up once.

While it's a lot of useless time for the low level player and highly depends on how many encounters per session they play, it doesn't sound that bad after I looked at the numbers.

You are also assuming surviving the encounters, and many DMs use the rule that you have to do more than just hide from the monster to get experience. Not that a level 1 character could effectively hide from a CR10 anything. Not to mention you are squishy enough that a single stray AoE will be a Save Or Die Anyways.

[Prime32]

There's also the problem that you can't gain experience from anything more than 8 levels above you.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Impossible above LV 4 in a WotC version of D&D - but de rigeur for TSR D&D.

Remember that your power did not really increase much via leveling in 1st & 2nd edition; levels were nice, but it really took a gap of 5 or more levels before a character would be better off staying home. Interesting, asymmetrically leveled parties were incredibly common in these editions - largely due to the variable XP-per-level amounts between classes and the nastiness of Level Draining monsters.

Each level in a WotC D&D game is just too valuable to even allow a character to lag 1 level, much less start him off at LV 1.

[Sliver]

You are also assuming surviving the encounters, and many DMs use the rule that you have to do more than just hide from the monster to get experience. Not that a level 1 character could effectively hide from a CR10 anything. Not to mention you are squishy enough that a single stray AoE will be a Save Or Die Anyways.

You could still contribute on a fight. If you are a caster, you can use party wands.

But you should remember that either your DM is messing with you (because the DMG says that only those who contribute to a fight gain XP, you will never gain combat XP and will be stuck at level 1, thus never helping and the party asks why are you hanging with them as no one took leadership) or he is ignoring that "must contribute" clause anyway.

I think that if you are making a new character for a high level party and your DM forces you to be at level 1, he thinks that it is unfair for the other characters to have worked hard for their XP and survived.

[dextercorvia]

I'm pretty sure it's once per an encounter. But I can't find the rule at the moment (never actually seen it so...) could you quote or post the page it's on?

Nope, leveling isn't in the SRD. It might be in the PHB actually, since I have read it, and I don't own a DMG.

The quote is something like "regardless of how much experience .... a character can gain no more than one level...." My memory fails me.

[Saph]

I actually think it would be kind of fun playing a level 1 in a party of level 10s. As Sliver points out, you'd level every encounter. Most meteoric character growth ever. Obviously you'd have to be pretty careful to survive, but it would be possible if the other PCs helped you out.

[Sliver]

Nope, leveling isn't in the SRD. It might be in the PHB actually, since I have read it, and I don't own a DMG.

The quote is something like "regardless of how much experience .... a character can gain no more than one level...." My memory fails me.

I found the rule, and I'm unconvinced. They don't use the word session, but adventure for that rule. Most of the time, adventure is a long time. If you read a bit later, you find it saying:

If, for some extraordinary reason, a character’s XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level.

If your DM gives you XP at the end of session, you are screwed. If it's every time you gain XP, it's OK.

If you are playing ECL1 with ECL10 party against CR10 opponents and your DM doesn't give you XP for surviving the combat (which is a challenge by itself) you will never contribute in any mechanical sense. You are no more than a follower with a voice.

[dextercorvia]

Based on your quote, I think their advice is to award XP at the end of an adventure. Rich makes fun of this in an early OOTS comic.

Sure your DM might award it at the end of a session, or even each encounter, but that isn't a guarantee.

[nargbop]

Coming in at more than three or four levels lower than everyone else means that you will fail against obstacles they succeed at, and will be more likely to die again. Ask your DM if you can come in at a more comparable level, and RP a good reason for you to join (one of the survivor's brothers answering a long-lost request for aid, etc).
That being said, your climb up the XP/level ladder will be quicker than everyone else. Be careful, and you might be fine.

[Sliver]

Based on your quote, I think their advice is to award XP at the end of an adventure. Rich makes fun of this in an early OOTS comic.

Sure your DM might award it at the end of a session, or even each encounter, but that isn't a guarantee.

Does the DMG tell you that new players should be considerably lower level than the others?

If your DM forces you to start at level 1 in a high level game and doesn't give you XP because you didn't contribute or if he does, he gives it once an adventure (usually at end of quests) so you level once every few sessions then I would think your DM just wants you to take a hint and go away. It's a lot of punishment for a player who's only crime is getting a character killed or joining late.

[dextercorvia]

Does the DMG tell you that new players should be considerably lower level than the others?

If your DM forces you to start at level 1 in a high level game and doesn't give you XP because you didn't contribute or if he does, he gives it once an adventure (usually at end of quests) so you level once every few sessions then I would think your DM just wants you to take a hint and go away. It's a lot of punishment for a player who's only crime is getting a character killed or joining late.

No, I think the level one restart is bollocks. I'm simply refuting the level up every encounter which might make it palatable. I say have them start one level behind, as if they were raised.

[Sliver]

No, I think the level one restart is bollocks. I'm simply refuting the level up every encounter which might make it palatable. I say have them start one level behind, as if they were raised.

There are many ways on gaining XP. If your DM uses the every encounter one, or every session but you have only one combat encounter per session, then you will gain levels fairly quickly compared to the others. It still sucks and you are screwed by the DM, but it's not as horrible as once per adventure with you wasting thousands of XP because you can't level up anymore or gaining no combat XP because you can't help but still forced to adventure with much higher level characters.

[Stompy]

So your guy has died, and can't be brought back. You bring in a new character at level 1 irrespective of the power levels of everyone else.

I'm not saying it's a good idea or anything like that but I'd like to hear tales of times it's happened in practice. Whether it was as bad as can be imagined or whether it was cool and edgy.

Ever seen this sort of thing happen?

This happened to me 7 times actually. 5/7 times resulted in death, with 1 resulting in unplayability, and 1 that was never played.

If I can recall correctly... It was a first edition game. This system does not work EVER, when you start back at level 1. This is because,

• Our DM scaled to the party of on average level 4, meaning if I got hit, I died.
• I didn't have money for henchmen.
• I couldn't roll a good character to save my life.
• I couldn't get money to level (1000 gp if I remember right), because our party assassin was taking it all, because he was the main person responsible for killing all the monsters. He was also ~3 levels higher than anyone else.
• I missed the session with the 1 HD dragon and it's ginormous loot.
• The DM made my only decent character who I decided to roleplay out go nuts and attack the party.
• I missed half the play making characters.
• The encounters outside are not scaled.
• Most of my characters were awesome at disabling traps (because I am creative), although you can't get the experience if you aren't a rogue.
• Death from massive damage rules in 1st ed make me cry.
• So does being ambushed by swamp wolves, and never getting a turn in that combat.
• 22% to sneak behind the ogre? Sure, not like I love this character anyway, and how else am I going to get experience?
• Was made to play a 3 DEX 9 WIS human cleric with a 20% divine spell failure chance.
• My fighter rolled a d10 for his first hit die and rolled a 2.

Never playing 1st ed. with the "start back at level 1" rules ever again.

[molten_dragon]

I've got a pretty bad story regarding this.

My wife and I had joined a group in our hometown and had been playing with them for a year or so. The group was okay, and the gaming was fairly fun, but it was pretty obvious from the outset that the DM was a bit of a control freak. When the party was around level 8, my character died, and since I wasn't enjoying the character much I asked the DM if I could simply create a new one. She said it was fine, I should just use the same character creation rules she had originally given us.

So I created a new level 8 character. Real life then proceeded to get in the way, and my wife and I missed a couple sessions before I could bring the new character in. When we finally got back with the group for the next session, I handed my new character to the DM to check out. After looking over it for a couple seconds, she told me there must have been a misunderstanding, since she had meant that I should create my new character at 1st level. Apparently she didn't believe in giving characters experience that they hadn't earned (she actually told me this).

Well, being level 1 in a level 8 party obviously wasn't going to fly, so I told her I'd just get raised and keep playing my old character (the party had already discussed it and if everyone chipped in we had just enough money to afford it). She then proceeded to tell me that in the two sessions I had missed, enough time had passed in-game that it would take a resurrection spell to bring my old character back. The party couldn't afford this, and didn't know of any casters high enough level to cast it anyway. I tried to reason with her, but she was firm that my only two choices were to make a new character at level 1 or sit out until the party was able to get me resurrected.

Needless to say, that was the last time that my wife and I ever played with that particular DM.

[Sliver]

Apparently she didn't believe in giving characters experience that they hadn't earned (she actually told me this).

Did you try mentioning that you earned the XP as much as your character, and that it penalizes you more than your dead character?

[okpokalypse]

L1 Coming in w/ 3 L9's.

1st Encounter is a CR10 Creature

L1 Char is Now at 2,700 XP and L2.
L9 PCs gained about 1,000 XP each. Still L9.

Next Encounter is another CR10 Creature

L2 Char is at 5,400 XP and is L3.
L9's are still L9.

Next is a group of 4 CR8 Creatures.
L3 Char is now at 10,800 XP and dings to L5.
The L9's get 1,800 XP and are about 1/2 way to L10.

Fighting three CR9 Creatures as the 4th Encounter...
L5 Char is now at 15,300 XP and is L6.
The L9's got just over 2,000 XP and are about 2,500 XP short of L10.

Next Encounter is a doozy. 1 CR9, 2 CR7, 2 CR6 and 6 CR4.
L6 Char is now at about 20K XP and is sniffing L7.
The L9s are a hair short of L10.

Going by these #s, the party will be within 1 level when the higher-up PCs hit L12. It kinda sucks that the low level PC just has to hang back and be useless for a few sessions, but the XP comes in huge chunks...