Making Death Final in the Game [3.5]

[Hendel]

I was just reading another thread about a different aspect of death in D&D and it made me want to see what everyone else thinks about this subject. In my high level games True Resurrection is not a difficult spell to get. The characters have the 25,000gp in diamonds handy most of the time and they have a cleric that can cast it. I have no issue with it being used on characters other than it makes death seem like a minor inconvenience rather than the dramatic moment that it ought to be.

My question is how do I use the death of an NPC to stir emotions and help the plot along? In movies and some novels, the death of a character in the story is usually final and sometimes very emotional. When the players could and would easily drop the money and the spell to have the NPC back in ten minutes, where is the drama?

I have allowed the spell, so it seems like it would not be wise to "disallow" it all of a sudden. Plus I like having it around so that the players can get their characters back. The NPC's spirit would probably say "yes, bring me back" if the spell was cast and their spirit was given the option. It would seem odd that the gods or god would allow it for the PC's but not the NPC's.

So, how do you allow for a dramatic and seemingly final death in a game where resurrection magic is rather common (and yes, at epic levels it is common).

[boj0]

It might be a bit of a cop-out, but if the evil villain kills them with a thuainium (sp?) weapon from complete warrior, it prevents resurrection due to the soul being trapped in the weapon.

[Marriclay]

stealing souls is a classic way to make sure death is (Fairly) final. it also adds a level of urgency when someone is going to use that soul for the creation of, say, a divine artifact, thus destroying it in the process. very evil, and very final.

[Umael]

One of my PC's backgrounds has an NPC who made a deal with his god - when he dies, that's it. No Raise Dead, no Ressurrection, nothing. Also, consider Lord Shojo - why should he come back from the dead? He's got a sweet Afterlife to enjoy?

[Telonius]

I believe that in previous editions, there was a mechanic to make death a bit more permanent - iirc it was either called or located right next to a "System Shock" roll. Basically, if you fail that roll, you go from "mostly dead" to "all dead." You might want to reinstate that for NPCs. (Or PCs for that matter, if the players are of a mind).

[Marriclay]

I believe that in previous editions, there was a mechanic to make death a bit more permanent - iirc it was either called or located right next to a "System Shock" roll. Basically, if you fail that roll, you go from "mostly dead" to "all dead." You might want to reinstate that for NPCs. (Or PCs for that matter, if the players are of a mind).

very good idea. in that case you just fudge the dice a little so that the NPC can't come back no matter what you ended u rolling, right?

[Telonius]

More or less, yeah. I have no idea what the numbers would be for the table, especially since there's an edition's worth of change between the two.

[Hendel]

I believe that in previous editions, there was a mechanic to make death a bit more permanent - iirc it was either called or located right next to a "System Shock" roll. Basically, if you fail that roll, you go from "mostly dead" to "all dead." You might want to reinstate that for NPCs. (Or PCs for that matter, if the players are of a mind).

Yep, good old System Shock rolls. Not so difficult that a PC would not be able to make it, but not a given that they would come back 100% of the time. Especially, since in 1st edition you lost a point of Con each time and that made System Shock rolls even more difficult as they were based on Con.

That would be a good idea, especially for NPC's.

[Umael]

In the computer game, Wizardry, the NPC priests did the raising of the dead until the PCs were high enough level to cast it themselves. But even when the PCs WERE high enough level, it was still a good idea to have the NPC priests cast it because they were more likely to be successful (i.e., avoid System Shock).

Luckily, if either the NPCs or the PCs failed, System Shock didn't set in right away. They went from DEAD to ASHES. If the second attempt failed (which I believe only the NPC priests could attempt), then the only thing left to do was give the PC a burial (happened once - was actually a bit of a shocker).

(Don't know if that might help any, but it's a thought...)

[peacenlove]

No need for houserules

Flesh to stone -> transmute rock to mud -> pour into water -> purify water.
Also the spell necrotic termination kills a person without hope of ressurection
Banishing the PC's into a plane with erratic time stream. Even if they return (and do not die instantly from old age) they will return in a different age alltogether, becoming effectively dead to the world.
Lastly make them mindless undead after their normal deaths and banish them into said plane. No one would want to retrieve them.

[Ashram]

In an old campaign I was in, our DM decided to pull a "Nine lives" rule, where you're allowed nine deaths; after that, no matter what kind of magic you use barring actual divine intervention, your soul is too tattered and beat up to come back from being tugged across dimensions nine times.

Of course, the thing that pissed us off was when he told us this halfway through the campaign, without warning and seemingly on a whim.

[valadil]

In an old campaign I was in, our DM decided to pull a "Nine lives" rule, where you're allowed nine deaths; after that, no matter what kind of magic you use barring actual divine intervention, your soul is too tattered and beat up to come back from being tugged across dimensions nine times.

I've seen this too, but only with 3 lives. I think the explanation was that at some point Kelemvor decides to keep you.

You could pretty easily say that certain NPCs (especially the more powerful ones) have already lost N-1 of their lives, so the next one is final.

One idea I've toyed with expands on the idea of monarchy being a divine right. In order to be ordained king there are rites and ceremonies to go through. The gods actually recognize kings in the world. However for someone to become king they give up any chance at resurrection. This means that tyrannical kings are more easily deposed and helps reinforce the idea that civil service really is service. I don't know that this works in any existing settings, but if you're homebrewing you might be able to work it in.

[2xMachina]

IDK. In video games, there's the save/reset.

So, in D&D, you've got the Raise Dead line.

[Lapak]

No need for houserules

Flesh to stone -> transmute rock to mud -> pour into water -> purify water.
Also the spell necrotic termination kills a person without hope of ressurection
Banishing the PC's into a plane with erratic time stream. Even if they return (and do not die instantly from old age) they will return in a different age alltogether, becoming effectively dead to the world.
Lastly make them mindless undead after their normal deaths and banish them into said plane. No one would want to retrieve them.

...Except that the original poster was asking for answers from the complete opposite direction. Your suggestions are all elaborate and involve high-level magic, which misses the point of 'person X just got killed by an assassin right before the PCs could arrive, where's the emotional kick if they can just Raise him?'

I mean, it's possible to do one of the things you suggest, but doing them for every death of a known/significant NPC strains both disbelief and the plot. You can't have Brave Joe the NPC cut down just as the PCs kick in the door and gasp 'the Dark Duke... has the artifact!' while the assassin flees if the assassin needs to spend five rounds dealing with Joe's corpse.

Unfortunately, the existence of Raise Dead (and related spells) is all by itself enough to cause this problem, and it's almost impossible to introduce an option that doesn't hit the PCs as well. You flat-out can't keep Resurrection as a common factor and make it work. The only options that I've been able to work out are:

- Spells that restore life don't exist at all. Well, maybe Reincarnate. Obviously, this hits the PCs hardest and changes the game. Adding a one-round grace period after you hit -10 hit points where any healing will stabilize you regardless of how hurt you are (or even if you got hit with an instant-death effect) mitigates this somewhat, but it's still pretty lethal.

- increase the cost of the spells to the point where they are prohibitively expensive. Preferably, this cost should not be in cash, should not be replaceable, and should affect the caster as well: points of permanent Constitution, irreversible aging, or the like. Or a material component that is really strictly limited and hard to get: the egg of a phoenix, a fresh blossom from the Tree of Life that only flowers once a year, something like that. This allows the PCs to potentially restore life, but they won't be willing and able to do so every time a non-party-member dies.

- Give them a failure chance, as discussed above - restore the Res. Survival roll or something similar. And then blatantly apply 'PC glow' by making it much, much less likely to work for NPCs. The gods have a plan for the heroes, and they can be restored, but everybody else isn't so bulletproof.

[mucat]

One idea I've toyed with expands on the idea of monarchy being a divine right. In order to be ordained king there are rites and ceremonies to go through. The gods actually recognize kings in the world. However for someone to become king they give up any chance at resurrection. This means that tyrannical kings are more easily deposed and helps reinforce the idea that civil service really is service. I don't know that this works in any existing settings, but if you're homebrewing you might be able to work it in.

Even if not enforced by the gods, rules of noble succession could be a good reason for royalty and other highly-placed aristocrats to refuse resurrection. A society could strongly believe in divine right: each nation has a single legitimate king or queen, and when the old ruler dies, their appointed heir becomes monarch.

So suppose the old king dies. His daughter instantly becomes the legitimate queen, and only a traitor would dare question her rule; a stable transition is assured, with no danger of civil war. And then, the old king comes back to life.

Who is the ruler now? The nation might fracture, half the major nobles supporting each claim. Even if the old king and new queen want to settle the decision amicably, opportunistic and powerful nobles could take this as a chance to revolt without the stain of treason, because they were doing it in the name of the "legitimate" monarch, whether that person agreed or not. It might be decided that no one is the legitimate ruler now, leading to massive civil war or a shattered, balkanized state.

Let this happen a few times in history, and it could reach a point where no king or queen, or no aristocrat at all who values their family's claim to legitimacy, will willingly return from death.

[Umael]

Another possibility is to involve Fate, aka the Norns (or the Greek equal, whose name escapes me). If the time comes, it comes. A little heavy-handed for some players, but it can work.

[Telonius]

Even if not enforced by the gods, rules of noble succession could be a good reason for royalty and other highly-placed aristocrats to refuse resurrection. A society could strongly believe in divine right: each nation has a single legitimate king or queen, and when the old ruler dies, their appointed heir becomes monarch.

So suppose the old king dies. His daughter instantly becomes the legitimate queen, and only a traitor would dare question her rule; a stable transition is assured, with no danger of civil war. And then, the old king comes back to life.

Who is the ruler now? The nation might fracture, half the major nobles supporting each claim. Even if the old king and new queen want to settle the decision amicably, opportunistic and powerful nobles could take this as a chance to revolt without the stain of treason, because they were doing it in the name of the "legitimate" monarch, whether that person agreed or not. It might be decided that no one is the legitimate ruler now, leading to massive civil war or a shattered, balkanized state.

Let this happen a few times in history, and it could reach a point where no king or queen, or no aristocrat at all who values their family's claim to legitimacy, will willingly return from death.

This is actually touched on in another webcomic I like to read, "Girl Genius." There's a very powerful tradition among Europa's royalty that one death = dead forever, as far as succession goes.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

So why does the NPC’s death need to be final and emotional anyway?

[jiriku]

I work within the world, and do what NPCs would naturally do. If you're an NPC, and you want a commoner dead, you simply knife him between the ribs, because no one's going to pay for a raise dead for him. If you want a politician or general or other powerful person dead, you need to kill him in some way that destroys the body, so there's nothing left to raise. Just Feed him to the sharks or burn the body and scatter the ashes far and wide, because no one's going to pay for a miracle or true resurrection for him. OTOH, if you want a king or an archmage dead, better feed him to a barghest or cast imprisonment or trap the soul or perform some sort of elaborate plot-related ritual to destroy or bind his soul after death, because his allies will surely pull out all the stops to return him to life.

Pro: supports verisimilitude.

Con: requires more legwork and narrative skill from me as a DM. Limits options, because only powerful, clever NPCs who work hard and expend significant resources can permanently kill powerful or important people. I can't say "the king fell off his horse in a tragic polo accident and broke his neck" when I want to off the king.

Tools: I have homebrewed variations to the arcane archer, assassin and black flame zealot that allow their capstone powers to kill with no chance of resurrection, and made the players aware that characters with these powers exist in the game world. I also introduce custom items such as a dagger of soul-devouring (9 charges; if used to slay an opponent, drains a charge, eats his soul, and turns the body to dust), and black pudding powder (essentially powdered freeze-dried black pudding - just add water; an assassin who infiltrated an emperor's harem added it to his bath water while bathing him to both kill him and eliminate the corpse). Used sparingly, these and other tools to ensure that when an NPC needs to die dramatically, raise dead doesn't come in to steal the moment.

[valadil]

So why does the NPC’s death need to be final and emotional anyway?

They don't all have to be. But an emotional NPC death can make for a cool scene in a serious RPG.

I was running Game of Thrones a couple years ago. True to the world, I killed off the group's favorite NPC. There was a funeral. I was just trying to show the players (who hadn't read the books) some of the religion that went on in the world. They got really into the funeral though. One of them even did a eulogy.

We were a bunch of late twenties gamers who had all been RPing since middle school. Despite all the death that happens this was the first funeral anyone had seen in a game. That made it effective. I don't expect to run a funeral again any time soon, but this one added a lot to that particular game session.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I can't say "the king fell off his horse in a tragic polo accident and broke his neck" when I want to off the king.

Of course, the soul still has to be willing to return. Our polo-playing king just might decide he likes the afterlife better than managing a country. Especially if he died during a time of, well, boringness, where there was no great trials facing the country and giving him lots of “unfinished business” to tug at his sense of responsibility.

Actually, I could see it being the official policy of a kingdom to avoid raising their rulers except in circumstances where that ruler is absolutely needed to guide the country. Especially if a king or queen or two has decided just not to show up. Especially if the nation is small enough that the cost of raising is a significant drain on the treasury.

They don't all have to be. But an emotional NPC death can make for a cool scene in a serious RPG.

Indeed. However, making a character’s death emotional and permanent just for the sake of a “cool scene” will break verisimilitude in a world where the death doesn’t have to be either emotional or permanent. There has to be some reason.

[valadil]

Indeed. However, making a character’s death emotional and permanent just for the sake of a “cool scene” will break verisimilitude in a world where the death doesn’t have to be either emotional or permanent. There has to be some reason.

Depends on the world I guess. No matter how high fantasy the world is, I usually assume that resurrection is far from mundane. I think it's a safe assumption that a permanent death would be mourned though.

[Riva]

you could shake up the world.

If death isn't permanent due to reliable ressurections, then change that in-game. Maybe the planes have shifted, and a reliable link to the divine is no longer feasible. It could be natural forces at work, or it could be the bag guys enacting part of a master plan. It would be an excellent reason to add a system shock sort of rule-set, where the roll represents how difficult the souls journey back to the world of the living was(Stat penalties, potentially everything went fine) all the way to permanent removal from the known 'verse, as the connection blinks off momentarily with you stuck in between.

[houlio]

To go in a completely different direction from making raise dead more difficult, you could add in other complications. Maybe the gods don't enjoy all this meddling in the "natural order of things," and they could go to great lengths to make an example out of those problematic PC's.

[Another_Poet]

I would say that if the PCs care enough about an NPC (an ENN PEE CEE!) to pay for True Resurrection then you are doing everything right. I wouldn't worry that it cheapens it because you have made a truly memorable character.

[Cogidubnus]

You can always make Resurrections more difficult by forcing them to do the old "game with Death" type thing. And realistically, Death always wins. Except maybe at Epic levels. Could be interesting?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Depends on the world I guess. No matter how high fantasy the world is, I usually assume that resurrection is far from mundane

As long as the world and its method(s) of resurrection reflect that.

And, let’s face it, anything that costs a minimum of 5,000 gp can only possibly considered mundane for the super-rich. It just so happens, high level PCs tend to be super-rich.

I think it's a safe assumption that a permanent death would be mourned though.

Naturally. Such can only be expected. (For anyone with true friends and family, anyways…)

[Chen]

For an NPC its easy. Just say they don't want to come back. Nothing forces you to be resurrected. Perhaps the afterlife really is a GREAT place if you were good during your life. Clearly it doesn't work as well for PCs but them dying and coming back is not usually that big an issue since the player is going to be back in some form anyways.

[Volos]

Make the PCs go through an entire adventure to try to bring said NPC back. Some dark deity got ahold of his soul and is doing horrible things to it. So as they fight for his soul to bring him back, have the dark god destroy it or something. That would really get them involved and piss them off enough to go along with any plot hook involving said bad guy.

[KillianHawkeye]

you could shake up the world.

If death isn't permanent due to reliable ressurections, then change that in-game. Maybe the planes have shifted, and a reliable link to the divine is no longer feasible. It could be natural forces at work, or it could be the bag guys enacting part of a master plan. It would be an excellent reason to add a system shock sort of rule-set, where the roll represents how difficult the souls journey back to the world of the living was(Stat penalties, potentially everything went fine) all the way to permanent removal from the known 'verse, as the connection blinks off momentarily with you stuck in between.

Cleric: "Hey, guys, it looks like my scroll of Raise Dead is only getting one bar. This could be risky. Maybe we should try to find somewhere with better reception?"