Pet Peeve #2-Intimidate(OR "The Terrifying Gnome and the pushover Orc Barbarian)

[Khaladon]

Gork the Half-Orc, all 7'2 of his massive frame quivering with rage, the muscles of his mighty arm bulging, slams the prisoner up against the wall again, even harder this time. Bringing his battle scared and tusk-toothed face just inches from the that of the half-elf he growls once more "Listen maggot! If you don't tell us, Right Now, where your sewer scum of a boss is hiding the major's daughter I shall personally rip off your leg and shove it so far down your throat you'll be able to hop while sitting down! "

"Yawn....Hmm, what? Sorry, I must have drifted off there for a second. What did you say?"

About to loose his mind, Gork suddenly feels a tap on his knee. Looking down he spies the party's beautiful Gnome Sorcerer, Bella, looking up at him with a knowing and somewhat superior look on her face "Sorry Mr. 6 Chr, but before you make it easier for our friend here to clip his own toenails with his teeth, how about I give it a shot, hmmm?"

Unable to resist her charm, Gork grunts and let's the prisoner fall to the ground. Eye level now to the man, Bella moves closer to the kidnapper and gives the half-elf a little frown "Now good sir, you'd better tell us what we want to know; after all, you wouldn't want me to get cross with you, would you?"

All blood instantly draining from his face, the terrified criminal sputters, his hands held up in pitiful defense "No! No! Please! I beg you! Don't get cross with me! I'll tell you anything! I swear! Just...Just please stop that little frown thingy you're doing! I beg you! I'll tell you anything you want to know!...." as his frightful blubbering makes further speech impossible for the moment, Bella pats the broken man's shoulder cooing "There There now..." while passing a sarcastic smirk up to the still fuming Gork.

SOOOO......What is UP with That???

It's has Always bugged the crap out of me that Intimidate is based on Charisma.

I understand that Charisma represents "Force of Personality" more than looks, but first of all, that's rarely how it's played. And Secondly and more importantly, there damn well should be some sort of Feat or something that lets a melee character base his Intimidation on Str instead of Chr.

Or even a wizard for that matter, surely someone clever enough should still be able to find a way to intimidate someone, no?

So what you all think?

[Jothki]

Circumstance bonuses, circumstance bonuses, circumstance bonuses.

Intimidate, like all other social skills, is based on an understanding of how people think and how to manipulate them. Someone with high ranks in Intimidate can make people afraid without needing to pose an immediate physical threat to them.

And Charisma IS force of personality, regardless of how many people use it wrongly.

[Doc Roc]

Fear immunity is trivially easy to get. As is MA immunity.

Worse for your point, intimidate and barbarians are a marriage made in heaven thanks to imperious+intimidating+instantaneous.

[WeeFreeMen]

A variant bases it off Str.
I can see how it can be Cha tho, as Cha is not just looks (or at all, depending on your choice). Its the way you handle yourself and the people around you.
Kinda fits with Intimidate, that being said, Intimidate doesn't have to mean physical pain. Bribing someone with intelligence is another way to do it, no "Str" needed.

On the flip side, you have a point (and its bothered me as well). The Barbarian Half-Orc should instill just as much fear in someone when he smashes in a wall, if not more.

We have always played with "Your highest stat" for certain skills. Namely, Intimidate.

[Blackfang108]

A variant bases it off Str.
I can see how it can be Cha tho, as Cha is not just looks (or at all, depending on your choice). Its the way you handle yourself and the people around you.
Kinda fits with Intimidate, that being said, Intimidate doesn't have to mean physical pain. Bribing someone with intelligence is another way to do it, no "Str" needed.

On the flip side, you have a point (and its bothered me as well). The Barbarian Half-Orc should instill just as much fear in someone when he smashes in a wall, if not more.

We have always played with "Your highest stat" for certain skills. Namely, Intimidate.

I've actually seen a variant to base it off of any stat, depending on how you're trying to intimidate (Quintisential[sp] Barbarian from Mongoose).

[Caphi]

The OP has an extremely abstracted narration of the skill check that seems to assume that the result of the roll is entirely independent of the events in the world itself. It's pretty weak storytelling.

[Khaladon]

Circumstance bonuses, circumstance bonuses, circumstance bonuses.

Intimidate, like all other social skills, is based on an understanding of how people think and how to manipulate them. Someone with high ranks in Intimidate can make people afraid without needing to pose an immediate physical threat to them.

And Charisma IS force of personality, regardless of how many people use it wrongly.

Right.

Well, ok, let's put this in a real world situation.

Example A: Kimbo stomps up to you and says "Gimme yo wallet fool! NOW!"

or, alternatively,

B: Dr. Phil (who arguably know at least a little bit more about how people think and how to manipulate them then Kimbo does...well, maybe anyway) steps up to you and says politely "You know, if you think about, you really want to give me your wallet. The sensations of dissatisfaction and despair you have been experiencing are based on your feelings of lack of self worth and the belief that you are not entitled to your success. By giving your wallet to me, you will be reasserting that you don't actually need the money, which will in turn reinvigorate your feelings of desire and make you feel happy and shiny again. So hand it over chump"

So which one do you think you'll be handing your hard earned cash over to quicker? (unless of course you just want to shut Dr. Phil up, which I think we all dream about at least a couple times a month)


(hmm, and btw, I never noticed before how much alike those two look! I'm thinking...love-child brothers??!!)

@Doc Roc: I don't know what those things you refer to are though..they sound interesting.

[Reluctance]

Barbarians have intimidate as a class skill. Sorcerers don't. Of the PHB classes, the only non-bruiser with the skill is the rogue, and mafia dons are very good at making you crap your pants while they smile at you.

If you're saying that the barbarian should be scary without investing in intimidate, you can't really ignore the skill system on one hand and complain about it on the other.

Also keep in mind that scared people don't always do what's in your best interest. They may lie. They may break down blubbering unintelligibly. They may feel that their only hope is to take you down as soon as you turn your back. Or they might assume you'll kill them once you get what you want and become entirely uncooperative. Knowing just how far to push can be more important than being able to tear someone's arms off with your bare hands.

[Mystic Muse]

So which one do you think you'll be handing your hard earned cash over to quicker? (unless of course you just want to shut Dr. Phil up, which I think we all dream about at least a couple times a month)

Kimbo. But, I don't have a wallet and never carry money on me unless I'm buying something so it's unlikely he'd get any anyway.

[Khaladon]

You make some good points Reluctance, but unfortunately your typical Barb or Fighter doesn't get a whole lot of skill points to invest with...

[WeeFreeMen]

I've actually seen a variant to base it off of any stat, depending on how you're trying to intimidate (Quintisential[sp] Barbarian from Mongoose).

Really? Thats pretty interesting.
Even Dex? I wonder how that'd work.
However, yeah. We pretty much go off. Str,Int,Cha. As a homebrew for our group.
as previously stated. Fear Immunity wrecks Intimidate, and it really is trivially easy to get.

[Khaladon]

Well, sure, but at higher levels you have lots of other options to get info anyway. ie divination, telepathy, miracle, wish etc.

This issue really only impacts lower level characters, it is true.

[Saph]

Barbarians have intimidate as a class skill. Sorcerers don't. Of the PHB classes, the only non-bruiser with the skill is the rogue, and mafia dons are very good at making you crap your pants while they smile at you.

If you're saying that the barbarian should be scary without investing in intimidate, you can't really ignore the skill system on one hand and complain about it on the other.

Yeah, this.

A Barbarian with max-ranks Intimidate should have a higher Intimidate check than a Sorcerer. Given that they also have more skill points than the Sorcerer does, you'd expect them to be good at it.

Secondly, given how dangerous magic can be in the D&D world, are you really sure that it's the guy with the big muscles you should be scared of?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Takahashi never had much of a problem intimidating... see sig for amusing details.

However, Barbarians get two major things going for them:

Intimidating Rage + Never Outnumbered = 'everyone make a check'

Imperious Command to make them Cowering = lockdown anything not immune to Fear.

[Dracons]

Wow Khaladon. You did the exact same argument that an ex player did to me once.

All on Charisma too.

Again, it's amount of skill points put in to skill. So lets do your Sorcerer/Barbarian again, but this time with skill points! All level 7.


Barbarian, with it's 4+int mod in skill points, and while it does have a decent list of skills, imitiadate will be a decent skill. Let's say the barb has a ten intilligence.

Barbarian, putting some skill points in, by level 7 will have, oh lets say 7 points. Not even maxed out. That 6 charisma (which is harsh. I've rarely heard of DM's allowing that low...) that is a whole minus 2 points.

So total ranks: 5.

Then with Sorcerer. Let's say 16 charisma. (Seeing as you gave a extremly low scores to barbarian, I doubt very much said sorercer will have a max score). No points into imidiate.

Total Rank: 3.


They both roll a ten. Barbarian does 15, Sorecer does 13.

So yeah. That half-orc barbarian with a 6 charisma, is still scarier then the 16 charisma gnome.

You want to go into the max ranks?

Barbarian: 10 Ranks for level seven, - 2 for charisma = 8 total.
Sorcerer: 3 ranks for level 7 + 4 for 18 chasima = 7. Hm. Barbarian still scary.

[BobVosh]

Really? Thats pretty interesting.
Even Dex? I wonder how that'd work.
However, yeah. We pretty much go off. Str,Int,Cha. As a homebrew for our group.
as previously stated. Fear Immunity wrecks Intimidate, and it really is trivially easy to get.

Juggling daggers, flinging them one after another to land next to the ears and then just playing with the last dagger. Assuming the guy is tied to the wall or stand next to it or something.

[Defiant]

Gork the Half-Orc, all 7'2 of his massive frame quivering with rage, the muscles of his mighty arm bulging, slams the prisoner up against the wall again, even harder this time. Bringing his battle scared and tusk-toothed face just inches from the that of the half-elf he growls once more "Listen maggot! If you don't tell us, Right Now, where your sewer scum of a boss is hiding the major's daughter I shall personally rip off your leg and shove it so far down your throat you'll be able to hop while sitting down! "

"Yawn....Hmm, what? Sorry, I must have drifted off there for a second. What did you say?"

About to loose his mind, Gork suddenly feels a tap on his knee. Looking down he spies the party's beautiful Gnome Sorcerer, Bella, looking up at him with a knowing and somewhat superior look on her face "Sorry Mr. 6 Chr, but before you make it easier for our friend here to clip his own toenails with his teeth, how about I give it a shot, hmmm?"

Unable to resist her charm, Gork grunts and let's the prisoner fall to the ground. Eye level now to the man, Bella moves closer to the kidnapper and gives the half-elf a little frown "Now good sir, you'd better tell us what we want to know; after all, you wouldn't want me to get cross with you, would you?"

All blood instantly draining from his face, the terrified criminal sputters, his hands held up in pitiful defense "No! No! Please! I beg you! Don't get cross with me! I'll tell you anything! I swear! Just...Just please stop that little frown thingy you're doing! I beg you! I'll tell you anything you want to know!...." as his frightful blubbering makes further speech impossible for the moment, Bella pats the broken man's shoulder cooing "There There now..." while passing a sarcastic smirk up to the still fuming Gork.

Wrong.

The half-orc stomps the ground in childish defiance. "Tell me, tell me, tell me what I want!!" His poor charisma and use of intimidate leaves much to be desired. He starts roaring in frustration, but the prisoner is unphased.

He's not going to tell some dumbass the secret lore he's worked so hard for! If this half-orc was going to kill him, he'd be dead already.

The gnome sorceress taps the half-orc on the shoulder, and ushers him out, head shaking in unbelief.

"Now listen..." she makes perfect and unyielding eye contact, "you're going to tell me what you know..." her head tilts slightly "or the consequences will be dire."

Her eyes squint, peering right through the prisoner's soul. "Trust me," she finishes him off, as he is now absolutely certain that she means it and has the capacity to do it.

The prisoner has been intimidated.


You see, being a strong dumbass doesn't yield much intimidating power. It takes force of personality and actual knowledge of intimidation to truly get a person to cooperate.

I mean, it's one thing to fear for your life, and to have a dumbass offer you a deal in exchange for your life (which might be unfavourable for him in the end given his weak bargaining skills) - arguably a diplomacy deal. It's another to be intimidated into doing something.

Intimidation is where you put that extra oomph. Sure, be a prisoner, and you already know that your life is at stake. But intimidation would actually make you afraid, of your captors specifically, rather than just of the situation.

[Beorn080]

-snipped-

Dr. Phil is using a Diplomacy check in that case. His intimidation would be based on the fact that he knows LOTS of marines, and it would be a shame to lose a kneecap from 3 miles away. Now please hand over the wallet.

I do agree with OP, to a degree. At 1st level, with the Barb likely having a Cha penalty and the Sorc maxing it, plus maybe a +Cha race, the Sorc would probably do a bit better. After maybe 4th level, the Barb's skill ranks should have caught up, plus masterwork bonus for the weapon. After 5th, the Barb should be doing very well, since its a lot cheaper to pump a skill then it is to pump straight ability scores.

[Grumman]

It's not the game's fault that Bella's player and the DM are bad roleplayers who are making no attempt to construct a logical narrative. Any sorceress with ranks in Intimidate should at least know of a few scary spells with which to intimidate people, and a prisoner being threatened by a half-orc barbarian is at least going to think he's calling the barbarian's bluff, not falling half asleep.

[Gametime]

It's not the game's fault that Bella's player and the DM are bad roleplayers who are making no attempt to construct a logical narrative. Any sorceress with ranks in Intimidate should at least know of a few scary spells with which to intimidate people, and a prisoner being threatened by a half-orc barbarian is at least going to think he's calling the barbarian's bluff, not falling half asleep.

Maybe the prisoner is just aware of Rule One: "Never act incautiously when confronted by a little bald wrinkly smiling man gnome spellcaster!"

[Tar Palantir]

And, as this shows quite well, it's not what you say, it's how you (don't) say it.

[Runestar]

It's not the game's fault that Bella's player and the DM are bad roleplayers who are making no attempt to construct a logical narrative.

What does a logical narrative have to do with anything? It is not like they will affect your final intimidate check.

[Khaladon]

To All: Please understand the story was simply an attempt to make an amusing exaggeration of the matter. Apparently I wasn't too successful at it.

@Dracons: Damn you MATH! Damn you to Hell!!!!!

@Most of the rest of you: Again, this matter is really only an issue at lower levels. But even still, with their usually limited intelligence and therefore limited amount of skill points, isn't there usually more important skills melee-ers are putting their points into? (Jump, Climb, Survival, Swim come to mind...)

But otherwise there also have been some very interesting and even persuasive arguments made here. My held peeve may be on less solid ground here...keep up the good work!

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A good scene that shows how CHA determines Intimidate can be found in the end of season one of the 2005 series of Doctor Who.

Spoilered for just that.

Spoiler

Show

Ninth Doctor: ... No.
(Everyone present, Daleks included, turn and stare at the Doctor)
Dalek: Explain yourself!
Ninth Doctor: I said no.
Dalek: What is the meaning of this negative!?
Ninth Doctor: It means "No".
Dalek: But. She. Will. Be. Destroyed!
Ninth Doctor: No! 'Cause this is what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna rescue her! I'm gonna save Rose Tyler from the middle of the Dalek fleet! Then I'm gonna save the Earth! Then, just to finish off, I'm gonna wipe every last stinking Dalek out of the sky!
Dalek: But you have no weapons! No defences! No plan!
Ninth Doctor: Yeah. And doesn't that scare you to death? ...Rose?

[Reluctance]

Jump, Climb and Swim all suck, and are made completely useless once flight enters the picture. Assuming an Int-dumping, Cha-dumping fighter, what skills do you see as being more useful? Handle Animal? Craft?

Barbarians have a couple of skills worth mention; Listen is good, and Survival has its uses. But then, Barbarians have a base of 4 skill points. If your sample character is limited to 6 Int and 6 Cha, ask yourself how many professional interrogators have moderate to severe mental retardation.

I will grant that there's something silly about the size based bonus to Intimidate, but it goes both ways. On the one hand, it's silly that someone who towers over the average person at 7'11" has only ranks and Cha modifier to work with, while someone who hits 8' exact has +4 on top of that. On the other hand, the halfling calmly mentioning how unfortunate it would be if you had an accident can also be quite chilling. And effective.

[Ravens_cry]

I am not sure if this feat exists, or one like it, in 3.5, but Pathfinder has a feat called Intimidating Prowess that allows you to add your strength modifer in addition to your charisma intimidate checks. A Pathfinder Half Orc Paladin with the Bully trait and that feat becomes, very, very, scary.

[Doc Roc]

I will grant that there's something silly about the size based bonus to Intimidate, but it goes both ways. On the one hand, it's silly that someone who towers over the average person at 7'11" has only ranks and Cha modifier to work with, while someone who hits 8' exact has +4 on top of that. On the other hand, the halfling calmly mentioning how unfortunate it would be if you had an accident can also be quite chilling. And effective.

Gnomes are scary! Also, Saph's point regarding the fact that it's not a class skill for sorcerers is useful, as well as the note that you know what?

Casters are bloody terrifying in D&D. Gnome casters? Practically walking nightmares.

[Touchy]

I am not sure if this feat exists, or one like it, in 3.5, but Pathfinder has a feat called Intimidating Prowess that allows you to add your strength modifer in addition to your charisma intimidate checks. A Pathfinder Half Orc Paladin with the Bully trait and that feat becomes, very, very, scary.

The bully trait is fan content, there is even a picture to point this out.

[Ravens_cry]

The bully trait is fan content, there is even a picture to point this out.

It still in the PF-SRD, talk to your DM to find out if the Bully trait is right for you.
Warning: May cause, drowsiness, nausea, and uncontrollable fits of homicidal rage.

[Ranos]

Yeah, as said earlier, that half-orc is as scary as a common bully. That gnome is a ****ing psycho. He's Jack ****ing Bauer.

There's a saying in interrogation: "violence perceived is violence achieved." You don't want someone screaming. You want him asking questions, asking. "what is he doing with that knife?".

-Now, why would you disappoint me like this ? That hurts me. That hurts me LIKE THIS ! (Cuts deeply into his own finger with a demented smile on his lips)

Asking, "if he'll do that to himself, what will he do to me?"

-That is a sharp knife. (sprays blood all over the target's face, who's too bat**** scared to move at this point)

Mostly you want him asking, "how do I make this stop?"