[3.5] CR estimate on this ToB Rakshasa?

[Saph]

So having finished up our previous campaign, I'm now DMing our group in a sandbox game. The PCs decided they wanted to go up into the hills and explore an old mine that had gone silent. The mine is a modified version of the free adventure "Tiger's Palace" and the main adversary is an advanced rakshasa. Since several of the PCs are using ToB classes I thought it would be fun to put them up against a version of the Naityan Rakshasa from the Monsters chapter of the Book of Nine Swords.

This is what I've come up with: a Setting-Sun specialist rakshasa swordsage, basically a Naityan Rakshasa with the change shape ability altered to swordsage maneuver progression and two swordsage levels added on. She's intended as a mini-boss and possible recurring villain if the PCs manage to drive her out of her mine. What CR would you rate her as?

Her main attacks are the Setting Sun throw maneuvers, enabling her to chuck the PCs around and into each other. Her defences are very high but her attack power is only medium unless she gets a combination off (such as Vanisher Cloak/Burning Blade/Assassin's Stance/full attack) so I'm thinking CR 9 or 10.

For reference, the party encountering her will be:

7th-level Dread Necromancer
7th-level Swordsage
6th-level Archivist
6th-level Wizard
6th-level Ranger
6th-level Warblade

(I did consider putting this in Homebrew, but it's really a power estimate I'm interested in rather than a critique. I can tone her up or down depending on whether you guys think she's too strong/weak.)


Bhishana Bhaga


Female naityan rakshasa, Neutral Evil medium outsider (native)
HP: 105 (9 Outsider HD + 2 Swordsage HD)
Speed: 40 feet
Initiative: +4
Senses: darkvision 60 feet, Listen +10, Spot +10
AC: 29, touch 16 (+3 Dex, +3 Wisdom, +9 natural, +4 mithril chain shirt)
Defences: SR 19, DR 15/good and piercing
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +16, Will +13

Melee: 2 claws +15 (1d4+4) and bite +9 (1d6+2)
Combat Maneuvers: Grapple +14, Trip +8 (+12 when using a Setting Sun attack)

Class Features: Quick to act +1, discipline focus (Weapon Focus: Tiger Claw), AC bonus, maneuvers and stances (initiatior level 9th)
Abilities: Str 18 Dex 16 Con 20 Int 13 Wis 16 Cha 18
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Adaptive Style, Combat Reflexes
Skills: Balance +10 Bluff +9 Diplomacy +8 Disguise +16 (alternate form) Hide +10 Jump +15 Listen +10 Martial Lore +5 Move Silently +10 Sense Motive +8 Spot +10 Tumble +19 Use Magic Device +16

Detect Thoughts (Su): Will DC 18 negates, CL 18th.
Change Shape (Su): Any Medium humanoid.
Maneuvers (Readied): Soaring Throw (5th), Comet Throw (4th), Obscuring Shadow Veil (4th, Fort DC 17) Death Mark (3rd, Reflex DC 16), Zephyr Dance (3rd), Shadow Jaunt (2nd), Burning Blade (1st)
Maneuvers (Unreadied): Strike of the Broken Shield (4th), Soaring Raptor Strike (3rd), Fire Riposte (2nd), Cloak of Deception (2nd), Wolf Fang Strike (1st), Mighty Throw (1st), Distracting Ember (1st)
Stances: Shifting Defence (5th, active), Assassin's Stance (3rd), Hunter's Sense (1st), Child of Shadow (1st)

Equipment: Vanisher cloak (Magic Item Compendium), wand of lesser vigour (35 charges), wand of cure light wounds (45 charges), mithril shirt, vest of resistance +1 (total value: 5800)

[Runestar]

I foresee it being overwhelmed by the party, because it just doesn't the actions to stand up to the combined nova-capabilities of a 6-member party, though I admit its defenses may be frustrating for the party to overcome (combination of high AC and thick dr). The dread necro may well be the MVP with its charnel touch.

I admit to having little experience with setting sun though, how effective is it in terms of crowd control? I suppose it can be fun to toss the PCs around and screw with their movement/placement.

Curious though, you have 1 extra 1st lv stance.

[Saph]

I'm using the stance/maneuver progression of a 9th-level swordsage, so she's got 4 stances, 14 maneuvers known, and 7 maneuvers readied.

The Setting Sun throws mostly involve chucking an enemy a long distance for extra damage, possibly throwing them into an ally to knock both down.

The PCs will have fought one encounter before meeting her, a CR 9 Delver, as well as one or two CR 6 traps, so they'll have expended a small amount of resources.

[imperialspectre]

I would rate it around CR 10, using the traditional WotC CR calculation method. The full Swordsage progression is probably worth 1 CR more than the Change Shape ability (sure, you lose some utility, but the increase in actual power is substantial). CR 8 +2 associated levels is CR 10, so there you go.

I suspect that with the lower-level Swordsage level (only 9) but higher and better HD (11), it would perform fairly similarly to a well-built 10th-level ToB PC, so CR 10 is pretty close.

I wouldn't count on you getting much more than one full attack, or a few single attacks if you hit and run to live longer. The action economy's pretty devastating, and your players have strong classes at least (except the Ranger, but Rangers can be built to be fairly effective). You probably know this going in, though.

[Runestar]

I'm using the stance/maneuver progression of a 9th-level swordsage, so she's got 4 stances, 14 maneuvers known, and 7 maneuvers readied.

I am fairly sure they were not meant to stack like that (what did they mean by advancing as swordsages normally?). The raksasha has 9HD, which gives +4IL, for a final IL of 6 with 2 swordsage lvs (so 3rd lv maneuvers max). You can still qualify for assassin's stance, which you can use in tandem with shifting defense.

There is also that irritating limitation about being able to use only 1 maneuver each turn, which I am not sure if it is meant to be limited only to its innate maneuvers, or to all maneuvers (even those granted by martial study or swordsage). This may further cut down on your action economy.

You may be better off using 3-4 copies of the naityan raksasha (using the advice in the sidebar about each sticking with a single form) as a final slugfest instead.

[Lapak]

Adding underlings - even significantly-lower-level underlings - to the combat with her would up her survivability significantly. The action economy everyone is going to talk about is going to be a major factor with a 6-person party opposing her. The party being forced to take an action or two wiping out the riffraff will give her a chance to get some momentum going combat-wise, and this is a character that needs to control the pacing and placement of combat to shine.

[Saph]

I would rate it around CR 10, using the traditional WotC CR calculation method. The full Swordsage progression is probably worth 1 CR more than the Change Shape ability (sure, you lose some utility, but the increase in actual power is substantial). CR 8 +2 associated levels is CR 10, so there you go.

I suspect that with the lower-level Swordsage level (only 9) but higher and better HD (11), it would perform fairly similarly to a well-built 10th-level ToB PC, so CR 10 is pretty close.

I wouldn't count on you getting much more than one full attack, or a few single attacks if you hit and run to live longer. The action economy's pretty devastating, and your players have strong classes at least (except the Ranger, but Rangers can be built to be fairly effective). You probably know this going in, though.

Yeah, CR 10 sounds right. I'm pretty sure she'll survive more than one turn, though: the party have very few things that can actually penetrate her defences. The high saves and SR will limit the wizard's and dread necromancer's attacks (they tend to use summons, direct damage, and fear attacks), and none of the party can beat the DR 15 normally. The Swordsage and Warblade's Mountain Hammer/Bonecrusher maneuvers will get through, but they'll have difficulty hitting the 29 AC.

I am fairly sure they were not meant to stack like that (what did they mean by advancing as swordsages normally?). The raksasha has 9HD, which gives +4IL, for a final IL of 6 with 2 swordsage lvs (so 3rd lv maneuvers max). You can still qualify for assassin's stance, which you can use in tandem with shifting defense.

There is also that irritating limitation about being able to use only 1 maneuver each turn, which I am not sure if it is meant to be limited only to its innate maneuvers, or to all maneuvers (even those granted by martial study or swordsage).

Eh, I'm the DM, I can give her whatever abilities I feel like. It's simpler to just give her standard swordsage maneuver progression. The advancement rules and the ToB rules were never really made compatible with each other, so it's simpler to just eyeball it.

Underlings would be a possiblity. The other option I was thinking of was having her make hit-and-run attacks and lead the party into traps, making it harder for them to reach her. A bunch of low-CR pit traps (made by the delver) wouldn't be all that challenging on their own, but they would make it a lot more difficult for the PCs to surround her.

[DanReiv]

I too feel she's gonna be overwhelmed by the sheer number of actions a 6-man group can pull.

Her DR will be beaten by Dark knowledge too, and there's so many ways to bypass SR.

I agree with Lapak to giver her a few minions, they don't need to be powerfull, basically anything that stop the group from focusing her for a few rounds.

Other than that she's good and will make for a tough encounter.

Any chance to have a Journal of this campaign ?

[Runestar]

I suppose throwing the PCs into traps could work.

the party have very few things that can actually penetrate her defences. The high saves and SR will limit the wizard's and dread necromancer's attacks (they tend to use summons, direct damage, and fear attacks), and none of the party can beat the DR 15 normally. The Swordsage and Warblade's Mountain Hammer/Bonecrusher maneuvers will get through, but they'll have difficulty hitting the 29 AC.

The dread necro has charnel touch, though the raksasha has a fairly decent touch AC. Sr may or may not be an issue depending on whether your wizard favours such spells. Summons can help the fighters between aid-another, flanking and possibly even grappling (a huge fiendish centipede has +15 grapple, same as the raksasha, possibly more if the wizard has augment summoning or uses heroics/imbued summoning to grant it improved grapple).

I guess the ranger is pretty much impotent.

[Saph]

I too feel she's gonna be overwhelmed by the sheer number of actions a 6-man group can pull.

Her DR will be beaten by Dark knowledge too, and there's so many ways to bypass SR.

I agree with Lapak to giver her a few minions, they don't need to be powerfull, basically anything that stop the group from focusing her for a few rounds.

Other than that she's good and will make for a tough encounter.

Any chance to have a Journal of this campaign ?

I'm reluctant to give her minions, since they wouldn't easily fit the background setup I've currently got for her. I'll do it if I can't think of any other option, but that's a last resort.

I don't think Dark Knowledge bypasses DR, does it?

I probably don't have time to write up a full campaign journal - still, there have been a few entertaining bits already. :)

The dread necro has charnel touch, though the raksasha has a fairly decent touch AC. Sr may or may not be an issue depending on whether your wizard favours such spells. Summons can help the fighters between aid-another, flanking and possibly even grappling (a huge fiendish centipede has +15 grapple, same as the raksasha, possibly more if the wizard has augment summoning or uses heroics/imbued summoning to grant it improved grapple).

The wizard mostly just summons undead and uses flight/invisibility effects to protect himself. The summons won't be able to break the rakshasa's DR, and she can just Shadow Jaunt out of grapples. The terrain is going to be quite cramped, which'll limit how many of the PCs can reach her.

The Dread Necro's charnel touch will work, though, and might end up wearing her down over time.

[DanReiv]

Align weapon will help the ranger (if he's a bow user) but then again 29 AC is pretty rough. I wonder how many PC can actually beat it without rolling 20.

Edit : it doesn't, but +2/3d6 helps beating a DR15 ^^ Then again I forgot you get DK (foe) at lvl 8, not 6.

[Saph]

The party fighters have attack bonuses of about +10. If the Archivist buffs them they can probably get up to +13 or so.

[Another_Poet]

I third CR10.

Also, consider this feller yanked for a campaign of mine! (if it's alright)

And definitely add minions. How about 2 dire tigers? Look scarier than they are, so the party will probably focus on them first (especially if they run interference on reaching the Rakshasa). But other than their initial Pounce they don't have any tricks up their sleeves. Could be a fun combat.

edit: or forget the dire tigers and include 1 dire elephant!! With a breath weapon!! Sorry guys I can't hear you over the awesome.

[Saph]

Well, in the end I decided against including minions. Instead, I've had Bhishana Bhaga set up the terrain to favour her instead.

The PCs will run into Bhishana Bhaga disguised using her change shape ability as one of the captive miners: she'll attempt to feed them false information. If they manage to figure out something's wrong, the fight will start then: if not, she'll attack them from behind once they try to reach her sanctum.

In between the chamber with the captive miners and the sanctum is a small maze of 5-foot-wide tunnels, twisting and turning so that line of sight is no more than 10 or 20 feet, and if threatened Bhishana will flee into there. The tunnels are littered with CR 1 pit traps (20 feet deep each) - Bhishana can jump or teleport over them easily enough, but they'll be a real pain for melee characters trying to chase her and she can throw the PCs into them with her Setting Sun maneuvers.

All my players are going to be there on Saturday, so the PCs will still have a 6 to 1 action advantage, but the action advantage will be lessened by the fact that only half the party will likely be able to reach the enemy at one time. Anyway, the game's on Saturday 10th, so we'll see how things turn out then!