WOTC doesn't know their own game

[taltamir]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050630a

I was struck by how clueless this article sounded to me. I mean, I am no char op guru but I see tons of terrible errors. for example:

Winning Ways: A warlock needs to have a high Charisma score because that ability governs his spellcasting. But high Charisma also gives him an edge in negotiations.

Charisma is a warlock's dump stat. There is literally not a single worthwhile spell that requires it. You don't need to meet a certain minimum value to cast spells, and it only improves the saving throws of your spells. Sounds good at first, but the warlock doesn't have any worthwhile spells that actually require saving throws (because he casts all his spells at will, they developers did not see fit to give him save or die / save or lose spells).

Also, the notion that charisma makes you a good party face is a joke. What makes a good party face is lots of social skills. Warlocks have terrible skillpoints, and lack some key social skills as class skills (ex, no diplomacy)

Good Will Saves: A warlock uses the best save progression in the game for Will saves (see Table 3-1 in the Player's Handbook). This natural mental strength helps him resist most effects that fool his mind or assault his spirit, including charms, compulsions, illusions, fear effects, and even inflict spells.

Not only inflict spells suck as anything but undead cures... this isn't really a "feature". it has a save, ok... so does every other character in the game.

Fair Weapon Selection: The warlock is proficient only with simple weaponry. Though simple weapons aren't the most deadly ones available, the fact that the warlock has access to the whole category gives him more options than most other arcane spellcasters have. That versatility can be a lifesaver if his spells happen to fail him.

Unlike other casters, warlocks don't run out of spell... it doesn't need a weapon.

Now as to what is missing:
UMD is referred to, but not mentioned by name, it is a huge and awesome power afforded to warlocks.

Unlimited flight at level 6 is plain awesome, and a very strong power. So is unlimited dispelling... invisibility, faster travel (path of shadows), baleful polymorph, foresight...
The warlock has a good selection of really awesome spells (and quite a lot of really worthless ones).

[nekomata2]

From the Dead Levels article:

The monk is the only other core class, aside from the barbarian, that has no dead levels. Players always have something to look forward to with the monk, which boasts the most colorful and unique special abilities of all the character classes.

I agree with you.

[Eldariel]

And this is news how? This is the reason the entire Core + early Completes are as effed up as they are. Seriously, we've got at least half a dozen books as a proof of them trying to play AD&D with 3.5 rules. And then there's horrors like CW Samurai. Oh, and someone should fire the editors of every single Faerun-book except like Unapproachable East.

[taltamir]

From the Dead Levels article:

I agree with you.

Hilariously sad :P... I seem to have seen that quote before. It is a perfect example of what I am talking about.

[Tavar]

To be fair, those articles always list good saves/BaB as a positive feature. And compared to the alternative, I guess it is. But, yeah, they really didn't understand the game when they started out. And it's debatable if they ever really figured it out.

[Daremonai]

From the Dead Levels article:



I agree with you.

Notice that at no point do they use the word "good" or "effective".

[taltamir]

Notice that at no point do they use the word "good" or "effective".

LOL!
you make a good point... they described the monk's abilities as "most colorful and unique"... not as "useful" or "effective"

[Wonton]

To be fair, those articles always list good saves/BaB as a positive feature. And compared to the alternative, I guess it is. But, yeah, they really didn't understand the game when they started out. And it's debatable if they ever really figured it out.

Given how extensive 3.5 is, I would make the claim that no one can ever "figure it out". Hell, books haven't been published in 3 years, but people are still coming up with new and interesting builds all the time.

From the Dead Levels article:



I agree with you.

You win one internet.

[Swordguy]

A point we've covered many times on these boards: the entire purpose behind the 3rd edition of D&D was to have a game with AD&D-style play (blaster wizards, healbot clerics, etc) with a less complex, more versatile, and more balanced set of rules. It was only playtested as such - when played in an AD&D-style game, the core classes have practically no balance issues whatsoever. If you choose to play the game in a different manner than the way it was intended and manufactured by the designers, then it's on your head when it doesn't work.



The Monte Cook article about "deliberate bad choices to reward system mastery" is a load of BS to save face. Each of the designers I've talked to, and the one I'm related to, says differently.

EDIT: The point being - WotC knew the game they intended to make, and knows the game they want you to play (look at all the published material telling you to play healing clerics, druids who use their Wildshape for transport, spells for healing, and animal companion for scouting, and the stuff telling you to be a blaster caster). People are playing something totally different...thus it's not totally fair to rip WotC for giving you "official" advice that isn't about the game you're actually playing. You may was well rip into White Wolf for not giving you good advice either - both "official lines" have about the same relevance to the game that you're actually playing (that of the ubercharger, chaintripper, CoDzilla, and Batman).

[Draz74]

Charisma is a warlock's dump stat. There is literally not a single worthwhile spell that requires it. You don't need to meet a certain minimum value to cast spells, and it only improves the saving throws of your spells. Sounds good at first, but the warlock doesn't have any worthwhile spells that actually require saving throws (because he casts all his spells at will, they developers did not see fit to give him save or die / save or lose spells).

Nitpick: There are some Eldritch Essences that have worthwhile save-or-suck effects attached to them. (Hey, I just read SilverClawShift's campaign journal about her Warlock character today, so don't try to dispute this point!)

[arguskos]

*saysstuffthatdoesn'tmatter*

HOLY HELL SWORDGUY YOU ARE LIKE ALIVE AND STUFF!

Dude! Where've you been man?! You've been gone so long, I thought you got banned or something!

[Tavar]

If you choose to play the game in a different manner than the way it was intended and manufactured by the designers, then it's on your head when it doesn't work.

I'm not entirely convinced that it works even with those assumptions in play. At least, not if you play enemies with anything approaching sapience.

[Temotei]

I like how they call it spellcasting. Invocations don't exist anymore?

[taltamir]

A point we've covered many times on these boards: the entire purpose behind the 3rd edition of D&D was to have a game with AD&D-style play (blaster wizards, healbot clerics, etc) with a less complex, more versatile, and more balanced set of rules. It was only playtested as such - when played in an AD&D-style game, the core classes have practically no balance issues whatsoever. If you choose to play the game in a different manner than the way it was intended and manufactured by the designers, then it's on your head when it doesn't work.

If they intended it to be this why, why did they create classes, spells, skills, and rules that are completely different than that?

Anyways, I actually did a playbypost game where the intent was to play "as WOTC intended"... I got to play the blaster wizard, called ray mcboom. we had cleric McHealbot, etc... Not the perfectly balanced game you claim it to be. Rogue and fighter got their butt handed to them, while my wizard one shotted entire encounters and proved great out of combat utility even without taking any utility spells (thanks to skill points).

I actually read a development journal that claimed nobody wanted to play cleric during play-testing because of the flavor of the class, fear of being heal-bots, and the restrictions on behavior (must stick to your alignment and god as played by DM), so they just beefed it up until "enough" people wanted to (talking about appealing to the wrong crowd)
So I wouldn't call it "perfectly balanced as intended"

Nitpick: There are some Eldritch Essences that have worthwhile save-or-suck effects attached to them. (Hey, I just read SilverClawShift's campaign journal about her Warlock character today, so don't try to dispute this point!)

name them. do keep in mind you have an extremely limited amount of spells known...

At first I thought the shatter at will one did... but it turns it doesn't (magic items are immune to shatter)

[Tavar]

For shatter, not many people enchant pants. Or Hair ties. Really, there are a multitude of items that are never made magical, and each one gets a saving throw.

[Swordguy]

HOLY HELL SWORDGUY YOU ARE LIKE ALIVE AND STUFF!

Dude! Where've you been man?! You've been gone so long, I thought you got banned or something!

No. Close though. Through a variety of red and yellow cards from the mods, I've come to realize that my attitudes and opinions on gaming and the fetishation of optimization simply don't mesh well with the vast majority of the people who frequent these forums, so I just don't post anymore...except in topics that intrigue me, that I can bring a unique viewpoint to (like this one), or ones in which I'm exceptionally qualified in which to post (Shadowrun and BattleTech threads almost exclusively, since I'm a Demo Agent for Catalyst Game Labs).

Mostly I just lurk (and quietly rage to myself when necessary, such as here and here). Not being logged in most of the time is a wonderful way to keep myself from posting something I'd regret - by the time I've logged back in, I've generally calmed down.

So yeah. Sorry man. Kinda nice to be missed, though.

[arguskos]

Mostly I just lurk (and quietly rage to myself when necessary, such as here and here). Not being logged in most of the time is a wonderful way to keep myself from posting something I'd regret - by the time I've logged back in, I've generally calmed down.

Ah, yes, I seem to recall the long angry arguments that were all the rage a year ago that you seemed to get rolled up into. Good to see you still live though!

So yeah. Sorry man. Kinda nice to be missed, though.

Welcome back. It's a lot tamer now, or well, it is for now anyways.

As for the topic, concerning class balance, if you actually play as they intended and do so Core-only, it does work (tested it a few times, I have). It's not really that enjoyable honestly, but it works.

[taltamir]

For shatter, not many people enchant pants. Or Hair ties. Really, there are a multitude of items that are never made magical, and each one gets a saving throw.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm

Saving Throws
Nonmagical, unattended items never make saving throws. They are considered to have failed their saving throws, so they always are affected by spells. An item attended by a character (being grasped, touched, or worn) makes saving throws as the character (that is, using the character’s saving throw bonus).

Magic items always get saving throws. A magic item’s Fortitude, Reflex, and Will save bonuses are equal to 2 + one-half its caster level. An attended magic item either makes saving throws as its owner or uses its own saving throw bonus, whichever is better.

1. Magic items are immune to shatter.
2. Non magic items always fail their saving throw automatically (making shatter a no save spell) unless being grasped, touched, or worn by a character.

that being said, upon further I think it actually DOES grant a saving throw if I target the weapon someone is wielding.

[Tavar]

Or anything touching/on them. Which is everything that would trigger the save or suck portion of the invocation.

[taltamir]

Or anything touching/on them. Which is everything that would trigger the save or suck portion of the invocation.

I don't see it... so I shatter the clothes of the person I am fighting... they become invisible (sorry, had to make that OOTS reference there :P)
No really, I shatter the clothes someone is wearing, its creepy and earns me some odd looks and comments... and has no effect in combat.
There is no suck part.
Only by shattering a weapon or armor do you benefit... problem is, unless the enemy is powerful enough to have magic weapon and armor (which are immune), then you don't really need it and it just wastes good money (loot).. believe me, I tried to use it. I shattered a bunch of weapons and armor... it was just more effective to kill the mooks and keep the loot, and anything worth shattering the weapons of had magic ones (which, btw, you wouldn't want to shatter since they are worth even more money)

[Tavar]

Really? Huh, I'm away from that book right now, but groups I've been in have always had the shatter work if it hit anything the enemy had.

[Swordgleam]

Or Hair ties.

As a girl with long hair who likes to swordfight, I can attest that the sudden loss of a hair tie should probably cause massive penalties to just about everything.

[SurlySeraph]

And this is news how? This is the reason the entire Core + early Completes are as effed up as they are. Seriously, we've got at least half a dozen books as a proof of them trying to play AD&D with 3.5 rules. And then there's horrors like CW Samurai. Oh, and someone should fire the editors of every single Faerun-book except like Unapproachable East.

Because Craft Contingent Spell, Place Magic + Acorn of Far Travel (+ Sanctum Spell), Force Orb, and Valorous weapons are always reasonable.

Granted, they're certainly nowhere near as bad as Incantatrix or circle magic, but it is a bit worrying that Unapproachable East is the best exemplar of balanced mechanics in the FR books.

[taltamir]

As a girl with long hair who likes to swordfight, I can attest that the sudden loss of a hair tie should probably cause massive penalties to just about everything.

IRL... in fantasy long flowing hair does not impede combat at the least. :P

And how often do you fight a warrior who has long hair which is tied in a hair tie? (and uses only one, despite the risk... If I had to I would tied it with three separate ties, its cheap and protects against it tearing or something.)

[Thajocoth]

They know what they were going for when designing the game, just not what they wound up creating.

[JeminiZero]

name them. do keep in mind you have an extremely limited amount of spells known...

Off the top of my head, Charm, Bestow Curse, Eldritch Cone, Devil Whispers, Eldritch Doom, Utterdark Blast, Word of Changing, all benefit from having a good save DC.

[taltamir]

Off the top of my head, Charm, Bestow Curse, Eldritch Cone, Devil Whispers, Eldritch Doom, Utterdark Blast, Word of Changing, all benefit from having a good save DC.

Keep in mind that a warlock knows a grand total of 3 least, 3 lesser, 3 greater, and 3 dark invocations by level 20. Even if you optimize your save DCs, you will still have a difficult time to get enemies to fail saves. especially later on when monsters have ridonculous saves... its better to just use no-save spells.

for the dark invocations for example, they have to compete with retributive invisibility, dark foresight, and path of shadow.

Baleful polymorph - granted this is the most tempting of the bunch, it is an at will save or lose. Hampered only by being so late to acquire, and by competing with such good other spells. (that, and your party will hate you if you use it)
Utterdark blast - also tempting, 2 negative levels per blast. (if failed save).

Curse: lose half actions sounds awesome... but it has a range of TOUCH (you are a squishy caster!)... and it competes with dispel, flight, dimension door, invisiblity, eldritch chain, and create undead... choose only 3 of those. frankly I don't think you can. I will invest a feat to get dispel, flight, dimension door, and invisibility (trade invisibility for chain when you can take greater invis)

Charm, Cone, and Eldritch Doom all suck.
What book is devil whispers from?

Those all require saves, but you shouldn't be taking most of them compare to some of the really awesome stuff warlock gets which doesn't require saves.
So you end up with literally a handful of good choices for spells.

Basically, you only need cha if you intend to trade great power elsewhere for baleful polymorph at will and utterdark blast.
mmm, although, in retrospect, utterdark will be ridiculously awesome for a glaivelock... 8 negative levels a round FTW.

So it seems I was wrong. For some specific builds CHA is useful. But I think for most it would be a dump stat.

[Wonton]

A point we've covered many times on these boards: the entire purpose behind the 3rd edition of D&D was to have a game with AD&D-style play (blaster wizards, healbot clerics, etc) with a less complex, more versatile, and more balanced set of rules. It was only playtested as such - when played in an AD&D-style game, the core classes have practically no balance issues whatsoever. If you choose to play the game in a different manner than the way it was intended and manufactured by the designers, then it's on your head when it doesn't work.

The Monte Cook article about "deliberate bad choices to reward system mastery" is a load of BS to save face. Each of the designers I've talked to, and the one I'm related to, says differently.

This is fascinating stuff. Now I really want to read someone explaining all the design goals/problems each of the editions experienced.

[taltamir]

actually I rescind my statement about cha being a legitimate choice for a warlock for certain builds...

since the only useful selections for it are Baleful polymorph and utterdark blast... which, while awesome:
1. Compete with other awesome stuff.
2. Still offer a save.
3. require a min level of 16. Vast majority of games will not get you to that high a level. And the rare few that are high powered enough to do so? well, for those you should play a wizard or cleric or some such instead of a warlock. And even if you disregard those two issues, you will NOT use it for the majority of your career. its too much of an investment (attribute wise), for something that only pans out at such a high level.

[Doc Roc]

This is fascinating stuff. Now I really want to read someone explaining all the design goals/problems each of the editions experienced.

The design of games is generally really cool! This stuff is particularly neat, but you should see some of the stuff that's gone down re: the dev of shadowrun. Regardless of how people feel about WotC did, the fact of the matter is that a "classic" party of supposedly appropriate level is going to get demolished by the majority of equivalently CR'd outsiders. Hezrou's a great example.