Diguised Vampires and Mirrors

[ChrisFortyTwo]

So, I am running a game where vampires are of the classic "can't be seen in mirrors", and my players are using hand mirrors to hunt vampires.

My question is, do you think the spell disguise self would counteract this, or would some more powerful illusion be needed?

[TraadosDarksund]

So, I am running a game where vampires are of the classic "can't be seen in mirrors", and my players are using hand mirrors to hunt vampires.

My question is, do you think the spell disguise self would counteract this, or would some more powerful illusion be needed?

Interesting question. I would believe that you may actualy need a more powerful illusion to prevent that classic Vampire trait. I say go with disguise, to make it fairfpr the players. But have some that are disguised with more powerful magic to keep up suspense that "they missed one".

[Snake-Aes]

Interesting question. I would believe that you may actualy need a more powerful illusion to prevent that classic Vampire trait. I say go with disguise, to make it fairfpr the players. But have some that are disguised with more powerful magic to keep up suspense that "they missed one".

Sounds sound.

The Badder Baddies could even misdirect it, if you want to guilt trip your characters a little bit, by making the reflection of the person at their side vanish instead of theirs.

[Bharg]

Your call. I don't think so.
Disguise self would probably just turn him into a Hawley Griffin by not affecting his eyeballs or the inside of this mouth.

Think about why you gave them this handicap. Powerful vampires might be able to get rid of it by more powerful magic or by having acquiring more vampire powers...

[Prime32]

If the illusion is forming a "holographic shell" around the vampire, wouldn't it be reflected?

For that matter, does a vampire's equipment cast a reflection? They could wear makeup and a wig.

[Tiki Snakes]

This is one of the reasons that I dislike this particular vampire trope. Much like with the no-shadow one. It sounds subtle, but really, it would be an instant giveaway to anyone and everyone.

The solutions proposed seem fair enough though. I wouldn't think that the misdirection thing is quite so fair (making other people seem to have no reflection). However, the idea of a powerful vampire beating this curse by stealing someone elses reflection seems pretty full of storyling potential to me.

[Lapak]

This is one of the reasons that I dislike this particular vampire trope. Much like with the no-shadow one. It sounds subtle, but really, it would be an instant giveaway to anyone and everyone.

In D&D, sure; in a more historical setting where really clear reflective surfaces are less common, not as much. That aside...

The solutions proposed seem fair enough though. I wouldn't think that the misdirection thing is quite so fair (making other people seem to have no reflection). However, the idea of a powerful vampire beating this curse by stealing someone elses reflection seems pretty full of storyling potential to me.

...I love this suggestion to death. That's excellent.

[ChrisFortyTwo]

This is one of the reasons that I dislike this particular vampire trope. Much like with the no-shadow one. It sounds subtle, but really, it would be an instant giveaway to anyone and everyone.

The solutions proposed seem fair enough though. I wouldn't think that the misdirection thing is quite so fair (making other people seem to have no reflection). However, the idea of a powerful vampire beating this curse by stealing someone elses reflection seems pretty full of storyling potential to me.

I'm using a variant vampire that can suppress some of his weaknesses (though he has a round limit/day, and must consciously suppress). Therefore, he is careful around mirrored areas and other things.

I've been using the suppression and stronger illusions so far, but I'm looking for confirmation because I'm about to run a slightly more involved game with the vampires, and I'll have to keep track of spell/suppression usage.

Thanks for the input, guys (and gals)

[Person_Man]

So, I am running a game where vampires are of the classic "can't be seen in mirrors", and my players are using hand mirrors to hunt vampires.

My question is, do you think the spell disguise self would counteract this, or would some more powerful illusion be needed?

I have no opinion on the RAW of Disguise Self and mirrors. But I hate it when authors create a rule specifically to break it. (I'm looking at you, 90% of manga). If vampires can't be seen in mirrors, then vampires shouldn't be seen in mirrors. If you create a rule and then reveal at some later point that you were breaking the rule using magic, the PCs are just going to feel cheated. If you plant clues that Disguise Self bypasses detection by mirror, then the players will just have to use Detect Magic and mirrors at the same time. It's a lose-lose proposition. And in general, a PC's ability to navigate the plot in a reasonable fashion should not be predicated on their level of rules mastery.

[Snake-Aes]

I have no opinion on the RAW of Disguise Self and mirrors. But I hate it when authors create a rule specifically to break it. (I'm looking at you, 90% of manga). If vampires can't be seen in mirrors, then vampires shouldn't be seen in mirrors. If you create a rule and then reveal at some later point that you were breaking the rule using magic, the PCs are just going to feel cheated. If you plant clues that Disguise Self bypasses detection by mirror, then the players will just have to use Detect Magic and mirrors at the same time. It's a lose-lose proposition. And in general, a PC's ability to navigate the plot in a reasonable fashion should not be predicated on their level of rules mastery.

Thing is, there is no plot if you want a vampire to be a threat through mystery if they can't bypass it in SOME way.
It doesn't have to be an asspull, it just has to be something that removes the common people, and to a lesser extent the players, to immediately identifying those vampires who are bigger bads than other vampires.

[Boci]

But I hate it when authors create a rule specifically to break it. (I'm looking at you, 90% of manga).

To be fair, this sounds to me more like players finding a loophole in a houserule the DM intended as mostly flavour. If that is the case, I think they should talk to their players, possibly removing the trait, explaining it ingame as just a superstition.

[Person_Man]

Thing is, there is no plot if you want a vampire to be a threat through mystery if they can't bypass it in SOME way.
It doesn't have to be an asspull, it just has to be something that removes the common people, and to a lesser extent the players, to immediately identifying those vampires who are bigger bads than other vampires.

Well, if the "head vampire" is also a king/general/mayor/etc, he can prevent the PCs from detecting him simply by choosing not to grant an audience, or by doing so under very specific circumstances (no possessions except simple clothing provided by the guards, with the explanation being that you never know what might be used as a holy symbol, material component, or weapon). Or the head vampire could Dominate others and use them as puppets, without physically revealing himself to the PCs. Or you could let the PCs detect the head vampire through the use of mirrors, and then have him escape by changing appearance repeatedly and getting lost in a crowd - making them paranoid and forcing them to use mirrors on everyone (which of course would be an insult to many leaders). Or the vampire could just work for or employ non-vampires.

Theres a lot of ways around it that don't involve breaking the established mythology of the game world. Or, as Boci suggests, the DM could just level with the PCs and tell them that the mirror detection thing is just a superstition that doesn't really work. The point is, real mysteries tend to be more fulfilling for the readers/players when they follow "the rules."

Of course, I will be the first to admit that this is a matter of personal taste and DMing experience. The reliance on ass-pull magic to drive the plot certainly hasn't hurt Harry Potter book sales.

[Snake-Aes]

I'll let it drop here as personal experience then. Playing by "the rules" is not the only good setup for the cunning. Those can(and do) twist them to their favor. As long as it is not pulled from nowhere(read: we knew it could happen before it became a big deal), we enjoy it. Part of it is because of the consistency that shows us that if we're willing to pay the same price, we don't need DM fiat to pull that trick off.

[Person_Man]

I'll let it drop here as personal experience then. Playing by "the rules" is not the only good setup for the cunning. Those can(and do) twist them to their favor. As long as it is not pulled from nowhere(read: we knew it could happen before it became a big deal), we enjoy it. Part of it is because of the consistency that shows us that if we're willing to pay the same price, we don't need DM fiat to pull that trick off.

True enough. I'm not arguing against foreshadowing or using magic as a plot device. I'm just saying that PCs can sometimes feel jerked around if the DM uses a uncommon, unclear, or unknown rule as a plot point.

[Lord Vampyre]

Since disguise self is an illusion that affects the character's mind, this is a viable solution. The use of a mirror on an illusion doesn't reveal the illusion.

The question you need to ask yourself is whether or not the disguise self spell is stronger than the supernatural effect that causes vampires to not cast a reflection.

I would personally give the players a Will save to see through the enchantment. This gives them a fair chance to detect the vampire. Besides if they succeed on one occassion and then fail on the next, they'll start doubting the validity of the mirror. They will then realize that they will need another way of detecting the more powerful vampires.

[NecroRebel]

Even if you don't want Disguise Self to hide vampires, couldn't a sufficiently skilled vampiric illusionist hide their nature with a simple Silent Image of themselves in a mirror? Or, more accurately, perhaps, they could cast Silent Image at the beginning of their working nights to cover their audience chamber (which is also covered in mirrored surfaces) in an illusion that includes their reflection in every mirror and a few extras (in case someone brings in a mirror) that are simply moved as necessary. It would be essentially impossible to interact with these images, since they behave exactly as a reflection in a mirror actually does, and if the local lord's chamber is already covered in mirrors that clearly show his reflection, would the players even think to pull out their own?

Now, you'd probably have to have highly Intelligent and/or Wise vampires be the only ones who can really pull this trick off, and it would be very tricky to manage in public unless they could Still, Silence, and Quicken their Silent Image, but in a prepared place where they probably wouldn't need to Concentrate on anything else, it's fairly perfect, and no "questionable" rulings abound

[Snake-Aes]

Even if you don't want Disguise Self to hide vampires, couldn't a sufficiently skilled vampiric illusionist hide their nature with a simple Silent Image of themselves in a mirror? Or, more accurately, perhaps, they could cast Silent Image at the beginning of their working nights to cover their audience chamber (which is also covered in mirrored surfaces) in an illusion that includes their reflection in every mirror and a few extras (in case someone brings in a mirror) that are simply moved as necessary. It would be essentially impossible to interact with these images, since they behave exactly as a reflection in a mirror actually does, and if the local lord's chamber is already covered in mirrors that clearly show his reflection, would the players even think to pull out their own?

Could he cast a silent image of himself on himself? An appropriate (hard) spot would entitle the disbelief.

[jiriku]

So, I am running a game where vampires are of the classic "can't be seen in mirrors", and my players are using hand mirrors to hunt vampires.

My question is, do you think the spell disguise self would counteract this, or would some more powerful illusion be needed?

This is largely a judgement call. I would require more powerful spells. Your players have seized on a simple means of exploiting an obvious weakness. Let it work.

However, vampires are smart, and I'd think that an organized vampire group that has inflitrated local government will simply react to compensate for the weakness. Moreover, they'd start with simple mundane methods of response before resorting to magic. for example:

• Compel local government to impose burdensome taxes and regulations on local makers of glass and silver. These local makers stop producing mirrors because they can't make much money, creating a mirror shortage.
• Steal any warehouses supplies of glass and silver, making the shortage worse.
• Act through government officials and remove any mirrors from public buildings (the public excuse can be "they've been donated for public use because of the shortage").
• Break mirrors owned by PCs when the opportunity arises.

None of these tactics requires magic to use. Heck, half of them can be orchestrated through low-level thugs and criminals who need not even know who their true masters are. The end result is that while vampires have a weakness, few people have mirrors with which to expose the weakness.

[MountainKing]

I'd also like to put in a vote for "Powerful vampires can steal reflections". It's just as valid as "A wizard did it", but significantly more meaningful to the story; plus, it opens up a whole array of plot potential. If you go with nothing else, I would say go with that, because it's delightful.

I'm also a fan with screwing with players' heads and emotions though, so take that with a grain of salt. That approach isn't for everyone.

[Lapak]

None of these tactics requires magic to use. Heck, half of them can be orchestrated through low-level thugs and criminals who need not even know who their true masters are. The end result is that while vampires have a weakness, few people have mirrors with which to expose the weakness.

Also good. On the same theme: start a local superstition that mirrors are used by necromancers to steal souls. Now if the PCs do get a mirror, they won't want to flash it around.

On the reflection-stealing end, though, it provides an excellent spot-the-inconsistency situation for PCs who realize that this is going on.

[NecroRebel]

Could he cast a silent image of himself on himself? An appropriate (hard) spot would entitle the disbelief.

The problem with that, as I see it at least, is that it comes back to the problem "can a first level spell defeat the vampires' supernatural flaw?" I'd say no, myself, though others of course can disagree. Also, does a Silent Image cast a reflection? Probably, as otherwise the hand-mirror method works for defeating illusions too well, but it's still something to ask.

My method, at least, doesn't so much defeat the flaw as bypass it. It allows for some other neat things, too, like a single vampire Beguiler or somesuch being capable of hiding the entire nest just by making more false reflections if more vampires are in the mirrored room. That'd be harder for the vampire to manage properly, as the other vamps might not move as they expect them to, but it brings up an interesting idea. Find the one vampire and take it out, and you've managed to expose the whole nest to the world. Kind of a keystone plot, you know?

[Snake-Aes]

True true, the idea would be to use a higher level spell instead. And maybe force him to concentrate every round to keep the illusion together.

[Lothmar]

Hah! Using mirrors to hunt vampires, good show - what with the basic DnD ruling of 'vampires recoil in the presence of a strongly presented mirror' so even the non divine people can effectively turn/repel vampires. lulz

If you're looking for a way to bypass this in a more fair manner without spells, I might suggest something akin to how Libris mortis has the 'endure sunlight' feat that gives you 1+Cha modifier number of extra rounds in the sunlight before you immolate, but do it for mirror's - where you impose a reflection of your shattered soul which fades slowly over a long time of scrutiny since it requires focus, to basically have a reflection for that many rounds and wont recoil/be forced away because you're a stronger vampire.

Im suprised their not dunking people they suspect of being vampires in rivers / running water if they have the special never ending water gyser mode magic item (forget what it's called (Running water drops a vampires HP by 1/3 for each round they're submerged) I especially love having someone cast Bless water and permanency on this so that all water expunged by this item is always blessed water.

[Prime32]

Im suprised their not dunking people they suspect of being vampires in rivers / running water if they have the special never ending water gyser mode magic item (forget what it's called (Running water drops a vampires HP by 1/3 for each round they're submerged) I especially love having someone cast Bless water and permanency on this so that all water expunged by this item is always blessed water.

Taking showers must be hell...

[Lothmar]

Thankfully vampires are for the most part - preserved for scent purposes and will only smell a little like graveyard soil, because they dont decay and they dont have bodily functions that produce smells. So as long as the vampires careful not do something stupid that will leave a lasting scent/uses nice smelling stuffshowers are uneccessary - but if you really need to clean up as a vmpire. Sponge bath, Sponge bath, Sponge bath.

[Another_Poet]

Not appearing in mirrors is essentially a racial trait. The text of Disguise Self says you cannot alter your body type; as such I would say it is hard to interpret it as letting you change your race.

I would rule that it does not allow them to get a reflection in mirrors.

[Tanuki Tales]

I thought the whole "doesn't cast a reflection" harkened back to when mirrors heavily used silver in their composition, which is also why they couldn't be photographed. If my Genre-fu serves me right a point of interest in most modern vampire stories is the vampire does now cast a reflection and can be recorded because silver is no longer prevalently used in both of those forms.

So just use that as a simple way to make sure your PCs can't just Tank and Spank all their vamp opponents so easily. Silver composite mirrors reveal vamps, regular ones don't.

[Another_Poet]

I thought the whole "doesn't cast a reflection" harkened back to when mirrors heavily used silver in their composition, which is also why they couldn't be photographed. If my Genre-fu serves me right a point of interest in most modern vampire stories is the vampire does now cast a reflection and can be recorded because silver is no longer prevalently used in both of those forms.

So just use that as a simple way to make sure your PCs can't just Tank and Spank all their vamp opponents so easily. Silver composite mirrors reveal vamps, regular ones don't.

I find that bit of information fascinating, but I will say your fix doesn't work - they will just invest in (relatively cheap, by PC wealth standards) silver-backed hand mirrors for their vampire hunting. It will never come up again.

[Worira]

Im suprised their not dunking people they suspect of being vampires in rivers / running water if they have the special never ending water gyser mode magic item (forget what it's called (Running water drops a vampires HP by 1/3 for each round they're submerged) I especially love having someone cast Bless water and permanency on this so that all water expunged by this item is always blessed water.

That's not how either Bless Water or Permanency work. At all.


You do raise a good point in that if you're using D&D vampires by RAW, a much more effective method to hunt vampires with mirrors is to just shove mirrors in people's faces and see how they react.

[Tanuki Tales]

I find that bit of information fascinating, but I will say your fix doesn't work - they will just invest in (relatively cheap, by PC wealth standards) silver-backed hand mirrors for their vampire hunting. It will never come up again.

The PCs have to discover this truth first and then they need to find a reliable source of actual silver mirrors.

It doesn't fully solve the problem but it does a bit of minor mitigation if the PCs are genre savvy instead of having to roll the necessary Knowledge (Religion) to know that they have to carry around mirrors in the first place.