Repeating Crossbow Optimization [3.5]

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Wondering if Repeating Crossbows are worth using.

Ok, I'm really not wondering... I'd just really like to know the best way to make use of them. I'm making several level 1-6 builds for different organizations in an E6 campaign, representing different ranks and levels of expertise. I have one group that I'd like to have specialize in the use of the repeating crossbow, but I'm not sure how best to go about it.

[Eldariel]

I've written a word or two about them here: The Archery Handbook

You may be interested in the Crossbow-section.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

So, probably Fighter for most of it, along with a level or two of something that gives them some kind of bonus damage?

Rogue is no good, because attacks there have to be made within 30' to count for SA, but I'd like these guys to be able to use their crossbows at a much greater range than that. Since (AFAIK) repeating crossbows were used almost like emplaced LMG's historically, firing from castle walls more as suppresion than as marksman weapons, having some form of ranged bonus damage beyond 30' would be helpful.

[Eldariel]

So, probably Fighter for most of it, along with a level or two of something that gives them some kind of bonus damage?

Rogue is no good, because attacks there have to be made within 30' to count for SA, but I'd like these guys to be able to use their crossbows at a much greater range than that. Since (AFAIK) repeating crossbows were used almost like emplaced LMG's historically, firing from castle walls more as suppresion than as marksman weapons, having some form of ranged bonus damage beyond 30' would be helpful.

Crossbow Sniper is a must. Also, if you use the "Fighter Capstone to qualify for BAB+8 feats", straight Fighter to get Ranged Weapon Mastery for the most talented individuals; that would be a good call.

As I stated in the guide, Repeating Crossbows are really somewhat uninspiring as weapons. But you can make them work if you must. Heavy Repeating has some reason for existing so use one of those. Using Strongarm Bracers [MiC] to wield a Large one is a nice damage bonus (1d10 vs. 2d8 - that's 5.5 > 9 average damage or +3.5); that coupled with Crossbow Sniper and maybe Ranged Weapon Mastery could already get you damage in the mid-teens for each attack and you'll get Rapid Shot + iterative for 3 per turn. I could see the level 6 individuals dealing 45 damage a turn, which is not amazing but not horrible either.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

So, if using the Heavy Repeater like an assault rifle, how would I best set up for having dedicated snipers using Great Crossbows? That same Fighter6 for the Capstone feat?

[Eldariel]

So, if using the Heavy Repeater like an assault rifle, how would I best set up for having dedicated snipers using Great Crossbows? That same Fighter6 for the Capstone feat?

Sure, Great Crossbow-using Fighter 6 can reach very respectable damage. Large Great Crossbow is 3d8. If you could get two more size categories, you'd have 6d8 but that might be a tall order in E6 for a Sniper. You could make them Thug Fighters with Education (in other words, "training in where to shoot things at") and Knowledge Devotion ("application").

That'd get you decent damage boosts. And they could take Improved Critical (again, Fighter qualifies) for the tasty 15-20/x2 crits. Since all the damage is multiplied, that's actually a fairly notable damage increase (about 3 point average increase per shot at 3d8+10).

[Maeglin_Dubh]

3d8+10 is a one-shot on almost any 1st level in the setting, and fits a sniper nicely.

What exactly does Knowledge Devotion do? I've seen it referenced in a few builds, but I'm not terribly familiar with what it does.

And by Education, do you mean Education Devotion (something else I'm unfamiliar with, if it exists) or something else?

[Eldariel]

3d8+10 is a one-shot on almost any 1st level in the setting, and fits a sniper nicely.

What exactly does Knowledge Devotion do? I've seen it referenced in a few builds, but I'm not terribly familiar with what it does.

And by Education, do you mean Education Devotion (something else I'm unfamiliar with, if it exists) or something else?

Knowledge Devotion is a feat in Complete Champion that gives you scaling bonuses against opponents of a given type with the appropriate Knowledge-check (Local: Hum; Nat: Mon Hum, Giant, Plant, Fey; Arc: Dragon, Mag Beast; Rel: Undead; The Planes: Outsiders; Dung: Oozes, Abers), depending on your check result.

Education is a feat in dozen sources that simply makes all Knowledge-skills class skills. Thug receives extra skillpoints making maxing all those 6 Knowledges viable. This is a very reasonable source of extra To Hit and Damage, one of the few available to archers.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I know there's ways of doing this in d20 Modern, but is there a way in 3.5 to spend extra rounds aiming to automatically threaten a critical hit?

[Eldariel]

I know there's ways of doing this in d20 Modern, but is there a way in 3.5 to spend extra rounds aiming to automatically threaten a critical hit?

With a spell called "Hunter's Mercy". Other than that, I can't think of any off-hand (some 3.0 PrC prolly had it but as it's E6, not applicable).

[Maeglin_Dubh]

So, I could give them Ranger to auto-threaten the Crit a few times per day, more with a wand, or Fighter to get Improved Crit.

Has to be Fighter6 to get Improved Crit, so any Ranger at all would mess it up, and at that point, might as well go full Ranger, right?

[Eldariel]

So, I could give them Ranger to auto-threaten the Crit a few times per day, more with a wand, or Fighter to get Improved Crit.

Has to be Fighter6 to get Improved Crit, so any Ranger at all would mess it up, and at that point, might as well go full Ranger, right?

You could UMD it. Fighter 6 also gives you Ranged Weapon Mastery. But yeah, full Ranger is a decent alternative. That said, I'd just use the Thug Fighter chassis, cut one less relevant Knowledge (say, Dungeoneering if Aberrations aren't a huge presence) to 1 and max out Use Magic Device, with Apprentice: Spellcaster. After all, if they're all formally trained, having them all trained in the use of the same spells makes all kinds of sense. Then they could Wand Hunter's Mercy just fine.

It's just one feat; as Fighters they'll get a few so spending two on the skill list could be excusable. They can still pick up EWP on 2, WF on 3, Crossbow Sniper on 4, etc. But yeah, there are a few options here. Take which feels the most appropriate.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I'm playing this Thug Fighter Great Crossbow Sniper in an Eberron campaign now starting at level 1.

Since we'll be going higher than E6, any potential changes to the build or PrC's that I could be looking towards? Since I have more levels to play with now, I'm thinking of using both Ranger and Fighter, or using some other form of trick (we have an Artificer in the group) to fire off Hunter's Mercy, and possibly looking into Rogue or something for Crossbow Sniper, although I'd mostly prefer to be well outside 60' when taking the shot.


Other alterations include using the Targeteer weapon proficiencies and skill list as base when adding the Thug ACF, so I get the Great Crossbow and one other exotic ranged weapon (currently looking at Lasso, for trip support) and have Educated and one spare feat to use at 1st level, since I have EWP for free and can't take Devotion until 3rd, so I'm considering Quick Reload to be able to fire each round.

Another thought I had was that with higher levels coming into play, is this even a worthwhile build anymore? Since I won't really be able to ever make a full attack with the primary weapon the build is built around... Although, there is this Targeteer ability that -might- help offset that....

Spoiler

Show

Sniper – As a Full Round Attack, the Targetteer may “sacrifice” one shot to
gain +1 critical threat range on a shot in that Full Round Attack. Multiple
attacks may be sacrificed. The bonus is only for one shot & does not “carry
over” from round to round.

[Volos]

I would like to note that a Ballista is a huge size heavy crossbow. Why not go huge size greatbow and treat it as a Ballista? Ballista Weapon Proficiency takes away the penalties for firing the damn thing. Then you can sneak attack with it as well within 60 feat using Crossbow Sniper.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

The idea behind the character is that he's an Aundairian professional marksman, trained at one of their academies. He uses the Great Crossbow as the D&D equivalent to a Barret anti-materiel rifle. I suppose a Ballista could do the trick as well, but he wouldn't ever be able to keep up with the party, and with Targeteer granting Hide/Move Silently, I see him more as Vaseili Zaitsev than Heavy Weapons Guy.

Also, we're all fairly unfamiliar with the Eberron setting, and from a brief overview that seemed one of the best ways to background the character. If there's another region that would better serve as the homeland of such a character, let me know.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC Breland is a more militaristic country than Aundair, so you might want to check that.

Other than that, I have no further idea on how to improve, archer builds are not my forte.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Breland might work out, I'm not married to the idea of Aundair.

[Forged Fury]

I'd say Karnath is probably the most warlike of the Five Nations. Their military academies are renowned across the continent. With that said, all five of the Five Nations were involved in the war so any would work.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I didn't mention Karnath, because I have the Necromancy aspect of it more precent than the militar one, but yeah you are right on that account.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I might make a Karnathi character at some point, but it won't be this guy. He's going to be part of a crew that is working towards a ship, then a bigger ship, and eventually an Airship.

[Gavinfoxx]

So. Sniping with a crossbow. Yea.

Could he use something like these things as support? They are more marksmen (ie accurate) than snipers (ie hidden), though.

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...php?topic=9001