Melee Archery [3.5 Feats]

[Temotei]

Close-Combat Shooting [General]
I've been asked why I bother fighting with a bow when I'm going to get close anyway. I say, why not? Limiting myself to great range isn't doing me any good, nor my enemies enough bad.
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 15 feet. In addition, you threaten adjacent squares with ranged weapons. Finally, using ranged weapons while threatened no longer provokes attacks of opportunity.
Special: A fighter may select Close-Combat Shooting as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Normal: You do not threaten any area with ranged weapons, and firing while threatened provokes attacks of opportunity.

Improved Close-Combat Shooting [General]
I'm no sniper, but I don't need to be.
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Close-Combat Shooting, BAB +4.
Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 15 feet. Additionally, you threaten squares up to one range increment away with ranged weapons.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Close-Combat Shooting as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Saya]

I'll look into it later, but the feats seem a little overpowered if simply looking at the abilities granted by the single feat.

The first one is like half an extra point blank shot feat, which I find okay, the main part is the final part, where you no longer provoke AoO when using a ranged weapon in melee range.

The main thing for this is that that part is currently covering a few feats, one of which is epic:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#combatArchery

Also, be wary of increasing crit range, because once again, you'd be starting to push into another official feat (Improved Critical), which normally is relatively annoying to get.

The other other thing is that there is a lot of room for potential cheese in these feats, and simply looking at what's available, there is a lot of silly things you can do...

[Frog Dragon]

Combat epic feats tend to suck and frankly, most of WotC stuff is a poor reference point, especially for archer homebrew. I say these are fine as they are. Also, I wouldn't recommend changing to critical threat range boost. The current version is both less potentially broken and more generally useful.

[Ashtagon]

The feats look reasonably balanced with other combat feats. My main issue with this is that archery doesn't work that way. But if cinematic is your goal, these are ok.

[Cieyrin]

These look fine as is but I almost want to say that they should probably have Precise Shot as a prereq, just from the stand point that you're probably going to frankly need it if you're that freaking close.

[Temotei]

These look fine as is but I almost want to say that they should probably have Precise Shot as a prereq, just from the stand point that you're probably going to frankly need it if you're that freaking close.

I originally had that as a prerequisite, actually. I just thought that, perhaps, Point Blank Shot should be enough for an archer to start taking the feats.

I'm not sure.

[Haltehk]

Personally, I would have done something like this

Melee Archery [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites:Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Effect: Pick a ranged weapon you are proficient with, you can use the selected ranged weapon in melee, attacks with the ranged weapon in melee no longer provokes an attack of opportunity. You may make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon if an opponent passes through a square threatened by you.
Normal: Using a ranged weapon in melee provokes an attack of opportunity and you cannot make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon.
Special: You make take this feat multiple times, each time apply it's effects to a different ranged weapon. Fighters may take this feat as one of thier Bonus Feats.

[Temotei]

Personally, I would have done something like this

Melee Archery [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites:Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Effect: Pick a ranged weapon you are proficient with, you can use the selected ranged weapon in melee, attacks with the ranged weapon in melee no longer provokes an attack of opportunity. You may make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon if an opponent passes through a square threatened by you.
Normal: Using a ranged weapon in melee provokes an attack of opportunity and you cannot make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon.
Special: You make take this feat multiple times, each time apply it's effects to a different ranged weapon. Fighters may take this feat as one of thier Bonus Feats.

Isn't that pretty much exactly the same as mine, except limited to a single weapon and Precise Shot is required?

[arguskos]

As they currently stand, they are acceptable (mostly, I'll come to that).

On the topic of prereqs, DO NOT ADD Precise Shot! Archery is already crazily feat intensive (PBS, Rapid, Many, Greater Many, Zen Archery, these, that's 7 right there and you might need to grab Precise for one of those). Don't add anything to the prereqs, for the love of god.

There is one thing I don't like though: the "you threaten to 15 ft" thing. Why 15 ft? If you can threaten with a ranged weapon, why not to the weapon's range increment? Or its max range? It's an arbitrary limitation that makes no sense. I'd recommend either removing it (and then replacing it with something else, like your crit range increases inside of 15 ft or something) or changing it to the weapons range increment.

[Haltehk]

Personally, I would have done something like this

Melee Archery [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites:Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Effect: Pick a ranged weapon you are proficient with, you can use the selected ranged weapon in melee, attacks with the ranged weapon in melee no longer provokes an attack of opportunity. You may make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon if an opponent passes through a square threatened by you.
Normal: Using a ranged weapon in melee provokes an attack of opportunity and you cannot make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon.
Special: You make take this feat multiple times, each time apply it's effects to a different ranged weapon. Fighters may take this feat as one of thier Bonus Feats.

[arguskos]

Personally, I would have done something like this

Melee Archery [General, Fighter]
Prerequisites:Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Effect: Pick a ranged weapon you are proficient with, you can use the selected ranged weapon in melee, attacks with the ranged weapon in melee no longer provokes an attack of opportunity. You may make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon if an opponent passes through a square threatened by you.
Normal: Using a ranged weapon in melee provokes an attack of opportunity and you cannot make attacks of opportunity with a ranged weapon.
Special: You make take this feat multiple times, each time apply it's effects to a different ranged weapon. Fighters may take this feat as one of thier Bonus Feats.

Man, you already posted that once (look up 3 posts). Also, it's strictly worse than Temotei's suggested feat above.

[Temotei]

On the topic of prereqs, DO NOT ADD Precise Shot! Archery is already crazily feat intensive (PBS, Rapid, Many, Greater Many, Zen Archery, these, that's 7 right there and you might need to grab Precise for one of those). Don't add anything to the prereqs, for the love of god.

A'ight. I'm cool with that.

There is one thing I don't like though: the "you threaten to 15 ft" thing. Why 15 ft? If you can threaten with a ranged weapon, why not to the weapon's range increment? Or its max range? I'd recommend either removing it (and then replacing it with something else, like your crit range increases inside of 15 ft or something) or changing it to the weapons range increment.

I was scared.

Reach is considered really valuable, but I suppose that's with Power Attack and Improved Trip, etc.

These were designed with melee range in mind for ranged weapon users. I suppose the reason I didn't make it the range increment was because these feats were meant to be for that little distance in melee.

Of course, giving bonuses to close range but allowing long range would be nice. Do you think they'd be too powerful if I just took out the 15-foot range for attacks of opportunity and made it range increment?

[Ashtagon]

With regard to threatening with a ranged weapon, it makes more sense for the character to designate a line (or possibly a narrow cone) drawn from himself, and he threatens anything in that line out to the weapon's range, rather than threatening anything within a radius.

[Draken]

It looks like a very nice pair of feats.

As for the 15 feet range, I would guess it is so for one of three reasons:

1. To be strictly above the threatened area of melee reach weapons (10 feet).

2. It is the range of the whip (which is treated as a ranged attack, I think).

3. It is half of the "point blank range" of 30 feet (specific reasons for halving the point blank range?).

15 feet looks quite well and good to me, for either of those reasons.

[arguskos]

With regard to threatening with a ranged weapon, it makes more sense for the character to designate a line (or possibly a narrow cone) drawn from himself, and he threatens anything in that line out to the weapon's range, rather than threatening anything within a radius.

Yeah, but then again, 3.5 has no facing, so there's no mechanical reason he can't threaten within a radius. After all, a dude with a punching dagger can threaten in a 360' radius all around him, why not the dude with the crossbow?

As for the range thing, I personally would like to see the basic close-quarters feat let you threaten all adjacent squares, and then the improved threaten all squares in one range increment.

Alternatively, switch the entire feat chain to Close range, as per spells (something I always felt that PBS and ranged sneak attacks and all that should be anyways; what I'm suggesting is 25 ft + 5 ft/2 HD, for reference).

[Temotei]

With regard to threatening with a ranged weapon, it makes more sense for the character to designate a line (or possibly a narrow cone) drawn from himself, and he threatens anything in that line out to the weapon's range, rather than threatening anything within a radius.

Gods, I love multi-quote.

3.5 doesn't have rules for facing anywhere, so it seems kind of odd to kick the archer in the groin when a greatsword-wielder doesn't have to be restricted in such a way.

Suggesting that a player designate a line or cone every round...that'd be annoying, honestly, for me. Feel free to use that if you want to play with the feats, though.

1. To be strictly above the threatened area of melee reach weapons (10 feet).

2. It is the range of the whip (which is treated as a ranged attack, I think).

3. It is half of the "point blank range" of 30 feet (specific reasons for halving the point blank range?).

My reasoning was #3, basically. I decided 30 feet was a bit much for "point blank shooting," so I shortened it some. Raising it to 30 feet wouldn't drastically increase power, however--especially since I made it one range increment for attacks of opportunity.

Alternatively, switch the entire feat chain to Close range, as per spells (something I always felt that PBS and ranged sneak attacks and all that should be anyways; what I'm suggesting is 25 ft + 5 ft/2 HD, for reference).

That would be interesting...and it would scale with HD. Hm. That's not a bad idea, though I've made it one range increment for now.

[DracoDei]

Erf? Not all archery builds would have any use what-so-ever for Zen Archery... If you are just saying there are a lot of feats... melee has more I suspect.

[Temotei]

Erf? Not all archery builds would have any use what-so-ever for Zen Archery...If you are just saying there are a lot of feats... melee has more I suspect.

Ranged builds generally require more feats to be good at what they do. While Power Attack is basically all a melee character needs for a few levels, a ranged attacker is basically required to take Point Blank Shot (+1 attack, +1 damage within 30 feet of target) to later get a bunch of crappy, semi-useful, and useful feats that they can actually use to be good at what they do.

Melee has more feats, but ranged requires more.

[arguskos]

Erf? Not all archery builds would have any use what-so-ever for Zen Archery... If you are just saying there are a lot of feats... melee has more I suspect.

Let's look at the basics of an average melee build vs an average archery build to be half-way effective.

Ok, so, a tripper needs Combat Expertise and Imp. Trip. A disarmer needs Combat Expertise and Imp. Disarm. A charger needs Power Attack. An archer needs PBS, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot (and BAB +6, which nothing else here needs).

Even at the basic level, just to be EFFECTIVE, an archer needs to be level 6 and needs three feats. Everyone else can do their thing completely at level 1 (as a fighter or a human; or just whoever if you're a charger).

Also, my comment about Zen Archery was because the best archers are clerics/archivists/mystic rangers, who are all Wis-based for their spell casting, so taking Zen is great for them.

[Cieyrin]

Also, my comment about Zen Archery was because the best archers are clerics/archivists/mystic rangers, who are all Wis-based for their spell casting, so taking Zen is great for them.

You forgot Soulbows.

On feat requirements to be effective, you also practically need Precise so you don't take attack penalties b/c, frankly, the time when that isn't kicking you in the groin are far and infrequent, as there's inevitably somebody smacking each other with phallic metal objects somewhere on the battlefield that you want to fill full of arrows/daggers/lead.