Tomb of Horrors 3.5?

[gallagher]

So i have a few questions surrounding the ToH

first of all, what is the ideal optimized team to go through the tomb? i quite possibly may be getting into a game, and need to know the best route depending what role i will need to fill.

secondly, would it be less lethal, but still fun, if it were planned to be for characters around level 10-11? (if i recall it is supposed to be 8-9). i heard of many people saying that they had to get a 9 lives rule for this game.

third, has anyone ever, without foreknowledge of the Tomb, gotten through it without dying? not the whole party, i mean you yourself

[Kurald Galain]

first of all, what is the ideal optimized team to go through the tomb?

Anyone with summons.

Particularly, there is a Reserve Feat that lets you summon infinite small elemental creatures. Send them ahead to find traps.

[PId6]

Get a malconvoker with Summon Elemental, a rogue with a maxed out Search, and a cleric that DMM buffs, and you should be able to get through the whole thing without a scratch.

[Loren]

I have some players in it and they've gotten good distance so far, but they've been within half a round of a disaster... well there are some save or take 20d20's coming

Advice:
-search often, search well
-never under estimate the utility of divination spells
-set aside some of your magic for problem solving/trap finding
-combat is often fast and lethal, be ready to take big hits. Similarly, think of ways to negate enemies who will pulverize your melee in a round or two.
-sneak attack and similar things is next to useless. Trapfinding however, is very useful.

Changing the level by one or 2 probably won't have a huge effecton lethality, and I certainly doubt it will increase the fun. All the problems can be solved at the intended level.

Party mix
-a melee is a necessity. I'd recommend seeing it as a defensive role. So try to deny attacks/absorb them as you won't be able to slash your way through tough combats.
-a trap finder/disabler, also a necessity
-arcane, you need to be able to cope with a variety of situations. You need to think about what will get you the most bang for your buck.
-healer/buffer, there will be wounded

[Kythorian]

Tomb of horrors is not that bad if you optimize and are smart about it. Yes, a horde of summons(or commoners, or undead, or goats, or really anything you can send ahead of you to set of traps) is a must. Several years ago our group ran the tomb of horrors. Of course, i had heard of it, so we all decently optimized and were incredibly careful going through, but none of us had ever actually read about specifically what was in it, and we only lost one person.

That was to a surprise full round attack that just wiped the character before he could act. Otherwise, it wasn't too bad.

So yes, it is very possible. Our team was lvl 8, and was made up of(i think): a factotum, a kobold cloistered cleric(DMM)(and with trapfinding), a warblade, a wizard with trapfinding(don't remember how), a malconvoker, and a beguiler(don't remember why. it seemed like a good idea at the time).

Anyway, this isn't even close to 100% optimized, and it wasn't bad. the tomb of horrors will probably only give a TPK if you treat it like any other random dungeoncrawl. As long as you are very aware of the fact that it is the Tomb of Horrors, you should be ok.

Things like a wand of detect hidden door, etc is quite helpful too.

[Zovc]

Party mix
-a melee is a necessity. I'd recommend seeing it as a defensive role. So try to deny attacks/absorb them as you won't be able to slash your way through tough combats.
-a trap finder/disabler, also a necessity
-arcane, you need to be able to cope with a variety of situations. You need to think about what will get you the most bang for your buck.
-healer/buffer, there will be wounded

In other words, make sure your "trap finder/disabler" is a Beguiler so that he can help you with random utility spells. Bonus points if the beguiler expands his/her spell list.

Also, since you said

Advice:
-search often, search well
-never under estimate the utility of divination spells
-set aside some of your magic for problem solving/trap finding
-combat is often fast and lethal, be ready to take big hits. Similarly, think of ways to negate enemies who will pulverize your melee in a round or two.
-sneak attack and similar things is next to useless. Trapfinding however, is very useful.

Beguiler with a level of Divine Oracle is almost infinitely better than Rogue. :)

[Kythorian]

Oh yeah. That was why we included a beguiler. So yeah, we had 4/6 of our group with trapfinding and maxed spot/search. All with other roles they were decent at too, plus a tank, and a summoner. keep the summoner in the back, and the summons in the front and sides, and it worked out fine.

[Umael]

So which one died?

[Kythorian]

Beguiler died. Early too, which is why i forgot why he was supposed to be useful when we were planning. But we had plenty of backup searchers/trapfinders/disablers, and plenty of backup arcane magic too, so it wasn't a big deal. We decided he was the most disposable, so he was the first one to check through for traps. So he was the first one to be attacked(since the enemy was nice enough to ignore the summons as they walked around past it). Factotum took over lead search duties after that.

[Jack_Simth]

So i have a few questions surrounding the ToH

first of all, what is the ideal optimized team to go through the tomb? i quite possibly may be getting into a game, and need to know the best route depending what role i will need to fill.

secondly, would it be less lethal, but still fun, if it were planned to be for characters around level 10-11? (if i recall it is supposed to be 8-9). i heard of many people saying that they had to get a 9 lives rule for this game.

third, has anyone ever, without foreknowledge of the Tomb, gotten through it without dying? not the whole party, i mean you yourself

To get through The Tomb, you need:
1) A combat-optimized character or three who follows orders from the trapmonkey (there's a few overpowered beasties that'll need killing). These guys also need a way to survive without air for long periods of time. One fight wonders are fine - resting up is not a problem.
2) A magical trapmonkey.

Item 1, the Combat-optimized character can be any high-end battle build (although almost nothing can be sneak-attacked by default). Number 1 will be useless in 95+% of the dungeon, but is quite handy for the remaining small percentage.

Item 2, A Dissasembler Druid, a Trapsmith Wizard, or other magical trapmonkey, solos the other 95+% of the dungeon.

Here's how the Magical Trapmonkey works:
You need:
1) A Very long-duration detect magic effect (Detect Magic + Scroll of Permanency, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell(Detect Magic)), the Magic Sensitive Reserve Feat, a lot of castings of Arcane Sight, or similar).
2) A neigh-endless supply of utterly loyal expendable minions (Summon Elemental Reserve Feat, wands of Summon Monster I, a lot of castings of Summon Monster I, the Thrallherd PrC, whatever).
3) A way to talk to your minions so they know exactly what you want them to do (a permanent Tongues effect, spend the ranks on Speak Language, get Telepathy from a Mindbender dip, whatever is appropriate to your chosen minion method).
4) A way to deal damage to Hard objects at range, a lot (Lots of castings of Shout, the Acidic Splatter reserve feat, Energy Ray (Sonic), whatever)
5) A way to survive without air
6) Extradimensional storage.
7) A willingness to be bored.
8) Obsessive-compulsive disorder.

How it works:
Step 1: Check for magic (the full three rounds, in all six base directions [Up, down, North, South, East, West - at 90 degree arcs, that's everything] if you're using Detect Magic).
Step 2: If magic is found, blast whatever was magical, then GoTo Step 1 (until there's no more magic).
Step 3: Send your utterly loyal expendable minion (or better, several - multiple types, if you have more than one; I'm fond of the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat) along your intended path of travel, to the maximum distance possible.
Step 4: If anything happens to the minion, blast the thing that did the happening, and GoTo Step 1.
Step 5: If you determine something needs to be manipulated, order a minion to do it, while you stay as far away as you can manage.
Step 6: If you think you need to go through something you can't see through, reconsider.
Step 7: If you still think you need to go through it, don't. Instead, blast a hole in the wall.
Step 8: If you determine a door needs to be opened, see Step 5.
Step 9: If you want to grab any loot, you'll need to manipulate the thing. See Step 5, and make sure the disposable minion puts it into the extra-dimensional storage. You never, ever, touch it directly.
Step 10: Loot the scrap metal from the doors and fixtures after you've blown them to smithereens (see Step 5 and 9 for picking up the scraps).
Step 11: Once you've had disposable minions check everything, manipulate everything that needs manipulation, you've eliminated all surrounding magic, and every test with a disposable minion comes back safe, take a 5 foot step along your intended path of travel.
Step 12: GoTo Step 1.

That'll take care of 95+% of the Tomb of Horrors.

[subject42]

We run a ToH game now and then with a revolving cast. So far, the two most useful items in the game have been Survival Pouches (MiC) and Tree Feather tokens.

Between the two of them, nothing is insurmountable.

[Lhurgyof]

I've run it and run in it.
No we didn't survive, but we made it to the last encounter and died.
And doesn't it say something about summoning creatures in the ToH... or at least, contacting other planes (Which summoning totally is...)?

[Deca]

Having characters good at searching for traps is pretty much an absolute must. Obviously.

>_>

<_<


Also, trust the mouth of the green devil statue. It might look forboding but that's just the writers of the dungeon trying to trick you. It's totally legit and actually leads into the easiest way through the Tomb.

[Ashram]

Some of the dungeon might be a little lackluster if your DM doesn't want to include the monsters/items from Libris Mortis that 3.5 ToH threw in there.

There are a lot of traps that are really force you to either think outside the box or be a metagamer. Certain ones are purely chance-based; pick the correct answer and continue, pick the wrong one and you die. Acererak was a ****.

Also, the last real fight is a pain in the you-know-where. Don't expect to survive it. The boss has a really stupid (Common) weakness, but if you go after the item that it's weak to, the DM will know right away and probably stop you.

Plus, don't trust Deca unless you like never seeing your character again. :P

[Zeta Kai]

Some back-up character sheets might be nice. Preferable pre-rolled. It helps keep the game running between TPKs.

[Jack_Simth]

I've run it and run in it.
No we didn't survive, but we made it to the last encounter and died.
And doesn't it say something about summoning creatures in the ToH... or at least, contacting other planes (Which summoning totally is...)?

No, actually, although it does have notes about the Legend Lore spell... which gives you basically no useful info.

What it really talks about is Ethereal travel.

[Coplantor]

WARNING! SPOILERS!

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If your party is made of undead with high enough will and turn/rebuke resistance, you can use the door that teleports non living matter directly to the end of the dungeon and skip pretty much almost the entire thing.

And of course, you'd also skip everything that's good, funny and entertaining of the dungeon, but that's your call

[Lhurgyof]

No, actually, although it does have notes about the Legend Lore spell... which gives you basically no useful info.

What it really talks about is Ethereal travel.

Ah, poo. I thought it'd be funny to have the optimized out cleric cast a few summon spells and cause a TPK. xD

[Tyndmyr]

Anyone have a link to ToH 3.5? I have a campaign winding up expectedly, and it should be entertaining.

[LansXero]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051031a

:D

[Tyndmyr]

Many thanks!

[Jack_Simth]

WARNING! SPOILERS!

Spoiler

Show

If your party is made of undead with high enough will and turn/rebuke resistance, you can use the door that teleports non living matter directly to the end of the dungeon and skip pretty much almost the entire thing.

And of course, you'd also skip everything that's good, funny and entertaining of the dungeon, but that's your call

Yes, but you could also

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Throw no-SR area spells through it to your heart's content, and kill the end-game boss without ever risking yourselves. Without going undead. After all, spells aren't living things.... you just need to find a way to make Fireball not permit SR.

[Lhurgyof]

Yes, but you could also

Spoiler

Show

Throw no-SR area spells through it to your heart's content, and kill the end-game boss without ever risking yourselves. Without going undead. After all, spells aren't living things.... you just need to find a way to make Fireball not permit SR.

I don't believe players have meteor swarm at that point. xD

[Jack_Simth]

I don't believe players have meteor swarm at that point. xD

Eh, wouldn't work anyway. I suppose the Summon Undead line might ... actually, that's... hmm. You just need a LOT of them, and they need to be high-end, but... nifty. Mwahahahahahaha....

[Deth Muncher]

Yes, but you could also

Spoiler

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Throw no-SR area spells through it to your heart's content, and kill the end-game boss without ever risking yourselves. Without going undead. After all, spells aren't living things.... you just need to find a way to make Fireball not permit SR.

Also, it sounds like you could argue

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Warforged could walk through that A-OK and beat the bollocks out of the endboss.

[Jack_Simth]

Also, it sounds like you could argue

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Warforged could walk through that A-OK and beat the bollocks out of the endboss.

Ah, but the phrasing is

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All living matter

and

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Warforged are LIVING constructs.

[Teutonic Knight]

We made it through with two barbarians, a rogue, a cleric and a paladin. And maybe a sorcerer, I'm not sure about the sorcerer.

Like what everyone said, you need someone who can summon creatures. We had a cleric and Summon Monster I.

And I was one the barbarians, and never died, I think.

[kpenguin]

We made it through with two barbarians, a rogue, a cleric and a paladin. And maybe a sorcerer, I'm not sure about the sorcerer.

Like what everyone said, you need someone who can summon creatures. We had a cleric and Summon Monster I.

And I was one the barbarians, and never died, I think.

Of course, you also had a staff of resurrection and a fairly forgiving GM.

[Teutonic Knight]

Of course, you also had a staff of resurrection and a fairly forgiving GM.

Thank you, forgiving GM.

[raitalin]

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I made up an optimized team consisting of a Warforged Dungeoncrasher, a trapmonkey Factotum, a DMM Persist Cloistered Cleric and a Master Specialist Conjurer for a one-shot run through the dungeon.

They were defeated by the CR 3 Brain-in-a-jar.

Initially, the Factotum was dominated while searching the corridor of spheres. He informed the group that the sphere containing the BIAG was solid and then attempted to abduct the wizard when the group made camp the night. He was brutally thrashed by the Dungeoncrasher. When the group continued searching the next day the Wizard was dominated (rolled a 2) after finding and entering the sphere hiding the BIAJ. I ruled that since the Cleric and Fighter had stating they were waiting for the all clear the wizard had 2 rounds before they acted. Between the narrow corridor, the near-limitless summons and the BIAJ pinning the Cleric down with telekinesis it wasn't a pretty end.

I offered to let them resurrect, but they gave up, losing D&D once and for all.

But honestly, as has been pointed out by others already, the Tomb is more about meticulous player action than character ability. If you're not careful a bad roll will kill you no matter how awesome your build is, and sometimes you don't even get a save.

I think if a group knows 2e, its a better system to run the Tomb in, as it requires more clever thinking than meticulous, repetitive action. Not that theres any lack of long, boring thorough searching in any Tomb run with a chance at success.