WoTC say NO spell-like abilities with Shapechange / Polymorph???

[Chanmanm8]

I had been trying to prepare myself for high level and of course looked into Shapechange as it is often brought up...

but...a number of broken issues (not all) involve use of spell like abilities...such as people saying they'd use Shapechange and turn into a Noble Djinni to use it's 3/day Wish or other broken loops utilizing spell-like abilities.

However, I just came across a WoTC discussion article "Rules of the Game" on Polymorph and Shapechange saying:

Spell-Like Ability: Spell-like abilities are magical. (They're also the subject of an earlier installment in this series.) A creature usually retains its spell-like abilities when it assumes another form because spell-like abilities are primarily mental in nature. You don't gain an assumed form's spell-like abilities when polymorphing or even when using the very powerful shape change spell.

from Wizards of the Coast themselves on this link:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a

So...with many discussions I've read on all sorts of forums in terms of spell-like abuse doesn't this mean they couldn't and shouldn't have been able to in the first place and thus only have gotten away with it if the DM didn't know or decided to allow??? Just wondering ... and hoping this doesn't get flaming or have people start crazy flaming each other I just want clarification on the years of shapechange discussions I've read.

This isn't on the supernatural ability exploits I've read (though I guess that's up for discussion here too...not trying to make use as it's lame cheese and my DM would overrule all cases anyhow).

Actually, following that: when other people I've read start talking about using the caster abilities of creature (Solar for instance normally casting / preparing spells like a 20th level cleric), would you consider that supernatural or spell-like (as I thought spell-like means as a spell but not actual traditional spellcasting / preparation / spontaneous like the actual classes), but if so would then be subject to above so the player doesn't gain the preparation abilities anyhow?

What I'm saying, is if the above essentially doesn't allow spell-like and spell casting (if the creature has it like a Solar/planetar/etc), and considering the HD nerf in errata to 25 HD (so amount of stats like regeneration / immunities / boost to Str Dex and Con so no Tarrasque transformations or most epic monsters from ELH) then isn't shapechange not as bad (though not including other obvious cheese loopholes still within RAW)??

[Caliphbubba]

I think there is a feat called Assume Spell Like Ability or something that lets you get them when polymorphed. not 100% on this though.

[WinWin]

Spell or Psi like abilities are not the problem. Supernatural abilities are the problem.

Assume supernatural ability feats can be picked up at around 7th level or so. Perhaps even earlier if Savage Species is used (have to check). This means that monster abilities can be picked up by player characters.

Druids with Draconic Wild shape or Undead Wild shape. A standard Egoist. Any Wizard/Sorcerer with access to the transmutation school. These character types are all capable of picking up the best abilities from any creature.

Of course, if you are playing a Conjurer, you do not even need to aquire the ability yourself. Your summoned minion has it in addition to it's own set of actions. Of course, that is a completely different matter.

[tyckspoon]

Working backwards: Yes, Shapechange is still ridiculously broken- it lasts at least 3 hours/casting (and it's not that hard to get an Extend on there; if nothing else, it's one of the cheapest metamagic rods) and it allows you to be whatever the heck you want during those 3 hours without even using any of your actions, because it was written before Swift actions. You can be anything from a Pit Fiend to a Solar to a War Troll to an Iron Golem to a Will O' Wisp, all from the same spell.. and even if you deny things like the angel's spellcasting abilities, being a War Troll or a Solar or a naturally-invisible magic immune globe is much more awesome than being a Gray Elf. It's a lead contender for most versatile and powerful spell in the game, next to.. like, Miracle, XP-free Wishes, and Gate.

The ability to cast spells is definitely not a spell-like ability. It's listed separately as a special attack mode, for one thing.. if you must use the categories mentioned in the Rules of the Game article, it's either Ex or the vaguely defined catchall of a 'Natural Ability', which said article indicates you would get from Shapechange.

[jiriku]

...then isn't shapechange not as bad??

So, between the Assume Supernatural Ability feat and the versatility of begin able to turn into 90% of the contents of five monster manuals and 20 splatbooks...shapechange is still difficult to balance against the powers that other classes typically get at levels 17-20. A savage beating with the nerfbat is highly recommended.

[potatocubed]

A savage beating with the nerfbat is highly recommended.

Shapechange (Sor/Wiz 9)
Duration: Instant
Target: You
Save: None
SR: No

When you cast shapechange, you die. Also, the player to your left may punch you if they wish.

[Dragosai]

Yeah so you're right about the RAW on Poly/shape change but you’re overlooking the basic damage it does to a game. Your fighter, barbarian, rogue...all classes without full spell progression will be EVEN more obsolete when shape change comes into play, forget all the stupids they can do with supernatural abilities, just being able to turn into ANY monster EVER within the restrictions (lol) of the spell will make the non-spell caster pointless to the extreme. The wizard can and will do it all. It makes me wonder in game, and out, why any adventuring groups above level 7 or 8 would even want to have a non-caster along? They are just useless XP holes that add nothing to the group that can be done better and faster than a caster can.

[Greenish]

Shapechange (Sor/Wiz 9)
Duration: Instant
Target: You
Save: None
SR: No

When you cast shapechange, you die. Also, the player to your left may punch you if they wish.

How does that last cause work in PbP? Who is considered to be "left of you"? Do you have to provide your name and address to the would-be puncher? Do you have to pay their travel? Business or second class?

[Eldariel]

Most spells in the game are available as Su-abilities. Beholder's Eye Rays are Su. Nightmare's Etherealness and Astral Projection are Su. Aboleth's Enslave is Su. Angels have Globe of Invulnerability as a Su-ability. And that's only the start. You also have a dozen infinite loops like using Shambling Mound + some source of electric damage for infinite Con.

And, of course, all this at once, along with great combat forms, extra actions (Choker and Chronotyryn as examples), and so on. Did I remember to mention that Su-abilities couldn't give a damn about your trivial defenses like SR and countermagic?


Shapechange is somewhere between:
- Gate
- Simulacrum
- (X) Planar Binding

in terms of ridiculousness. Ice Assassin is probably stronger, and possibly free Wishes but that's about it. Note how Shapechange is the only one in that bunch that doesn't have any costs outside a one-time investment of 1.5k (oh noes!) on a Focus? Well, Planar Binding, but shut up.

[liquid150]

The problem isn't SLA's, which the spell does not grant.

As others said, the problem is with Su's, and also the fact that, technically, Shapechange grants spellcasting (i.e. Shapechange into Solar, you now cast spells as a 20th level cleric AND wizard).

[lesser_minion]

Just a quick note, shapechange only lasts ten minutes per level (per errata).

Annoyingly, it keeps polymorph's ability to not strip you of all existing abilities (the single worst rule in 3rd edition is the sentence in PHB2 explaining that polymorph's text overrides the rules for the polymorph subschool, and guess which spell shapechange inherits from).

The main abuses are actually in the form of extraordinary abilities and people trying to argue that spellcasting is an extraordinary ability (there is nothing to suggest that the three creatures for which this actually is the case are anything but special cases, and they all receive wizard spellcasting, which is unusable anyway).

[Eldariel]

Just a quick note, shapechange only lasts ten minutes per level (per errata).

What errata? It's always been 10 min/level in 3.X and lasted rounds/level in AD&D (with 1.5k focus as opposed to 1.5k costly material component; yeah, try and figure out why it wasn't broken then, and is now). Thing is, on level 17 that's 3+ hours (you'll have plenty of caster level boosters by that point). Level 20, it can easily be 4 hours.

Greater Metamagic Rod of Extend makes it 8 hours. Two castings gives you 16 hour coverage and using 3 slots + the charges of your Rod makes it 24. 10 min/level is really quite a bit on those levels already.

The main abuses are actually in the form of extraordinary abilities and people trying to argue that spellcasting is an extraordinary ability (there is nothing to suggest that the three creatures for which this actually is the case are anything but special cases, and they all receive wizard spellcasting, which is unusable anyway).

Well, it's a nice bonus for Druid 'cause they weren't good enough. And it's defined as an Ex in one of the MMs, I recall. The ability, that is. Not that it matters, it's either Ex or Natural, both of which you get from Shapechange. But that's stupid; no need to allow it. The spell is broken without spellcasting.

[lesser_minion]

What errata? It's always been 10 min/level in 3.X and lasted rounds/level in AD&D (with 1.5k focus as opposed to 1.5k costly material component; yeah, try and figure out why it wasn't broken then, and is now). Thing is, on level 17 that's 3+ hours (you'll have plenty of caster level boosters by that point). Level 20, it can easily be 4 hours.

I misread Tyckspoon as saying that it lasted three hours a level, as opposed to three hours a casting.

As for errata, it was re-written in Rules Compendium, although the only actual changes I've noticed are that the level line has been updated, and the spell now has the polymorph subschool (but doesn't strip you of your class features because of inheritance).

Well, it's a nice bonus for Druid 'cause they weren't good enough. And it's defined as an Ex in one of the MMs, I recall. The ability, that is. Not that it matters, it's either Ex or Natural, both of which you get from Shapechange. But that's stupid; no need to allow it. The spell is broken without spellcasting.

The extraordinary version of spellcasting is differently named to the abilities presented without a type in the first four monster manuals. It also only ever grants casting 'as a wizard', IIRC, which should be unusable.

You can PAO your fighters into hobgoblin warsouls when they become less useful, but that's about the only abuse of Arcane Talent that's even remotely likely to fly.

And no, presenting it without a type doesn't make it into "either Ex or natural". It means that the line saying "abilities with no listed type are natural abilities" is a typo (natural abilities can never be magical, nor can extraordinary abilities).

[Chanmanm8]

The problem isn't SLA's, which the spell does not grant.

As others said, the problem is with Su's, and also the fact that, technically, Shapechange grants spellcasting (i.e. Shapechange into Solar, you now cast spells as a 20th level cleric AND wizard).

Originally Posted by Eldariel on Spellcasting
Well, it's a nice bonus for Druid 'cause they weren't good enough. And it's defined as an Ex in one of the MMs, I recall. The ability, that is. Not that it matters, it's either Ex or Natural, both of which you get from Shapechange. But that's stupid; no need to allow it. The spell is broken without spellcasting.

Above on spellcasting, as has been said by others in the reply so far like tyckspoon, is something I hope to view as a separate category as I've seen discussed in other forums such that they can't be used.

Again, my asking was more about reading threads of people trying to use spell-like abilities without fully reading the restrictions as opposed to asking for further exploit. I do understand the ramifications with the wide choice on Su gains, immunities, regeneration, insane str / dex for initiatives before encounters start, etc.

The group that is starting has a DM well experienced for over 30 years and would outrule any broken cheese on a case by case basis (a la rule 0), which I would prefer so the group has fun and not people trying to roflpwnwin through loopholes. I want to make use of shapechange, and am intending it for mostly immunity / resistance and healing capabilities, expecting to lose my ability to cast spells when not in my form.

[Person_Man]

A larger point is that even if you excluded all spells, spell like abilities, supernatural abilities, and extraordinary abilities, with a single spell a caster can still radically improve it's attributes, modes of movement, natural attacks, natural armor, and size (and thus also his space, reach, and Hide bonuses), and that he can always choose the most beneficial form for any given situation. By comparison a Barbarian spends 20 levels to get +10 land speed, Improved Uncanny Dodge, DR 5/-, +8 Str/Con, and +4 Will Save.

The simple fact is that any ability that has an open ended effect (limited only by the number of splat books the players own and/or their imagination) is open to serious abuse.

Sadly, 4E went in the opposite direction, and eliminated almost everything interesting. But that's an argument for another thread.

[Eldariel]

Again, my asking was more about reading threads of people trying to use spell-like abilities without fully reading the restrictions as opposed to asking for further exploit. I do understand the ramifications with the wide choice on Su gains, immunities, regeneration, insane str / dex for initiatives before encounters start, etc.

I have never seen anyone suggesting using SLAs through Shapechange. Most common ways to access SLAs are Gate, Simulacrum, Planar Binding and various Elemental Wildshape Spinoffs (most notorious of which is definitely Planar Shepherd's Outsider Wildshape).

One must understand that most of the SLAs also exist as Su abilities hence the possible confusion.

The group that is starting has a DM well experienced for over 30 years and would outrule any broken cheese on a case by case basis (a la rule 0), which I would prefer so the group has fun and not people trying to roflpwnwin through loopholes. I want to make use of shapechange, and am intending it for mostly immunity / resistance and healing capabilities, expecting to lose my ability to cast spells when not in my form.

Use it as a toolbox solution. It's still broken, but meh, whatever. If you want for it to be more fair, use the AD&D version: 1 round/level, 1500gp material component. Still easily worth it, but far less broken and more of an "encounter ender" á la Time Stop than "Divine Ascension" as it is right now.

[liquid150]

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood your question.

You are correct that it wouldn't be "as bad," but that isn't to say that the DM will be okay with you Shapechanging into a Solar for the DR, regeneration, immunities, etc. I can't really say what the guy perceives as "broken," since I don't know him.

So, to sum it up, the spell wouldn't be "as bad" but it would still be pretty broken. That's because a lot of powerful stuff is still listed as Su, like the Nightmare's Astral Projection ability.

[lesser_minion]

The simplest starting point for a fix is to take the line "However, note that the existing text of the spell takes priority over that of the subschool" from the second PHB (page 96) and insert "wherever this would leave the spell's recipient worse off".

That's still not enough, but it's a start. Among other things, that means that you lose your original spellcasting, so you don't get any sort of "best of both worlds" nonsense that you'd normally have.

Spellcasting is never granted by shapechanging -- the MMV spellcasting monsters are an exception, and should probably be thought of as a typo (in the same way that you shouldn't get a vorpal sword for free when turning into a balor).

Regarding them as extraordinary abilities conflicts with the rule that neither extraordinary nor natural abilities may be magical, and it makes sense to go with the less broken interpretation.

The intended relationship between spells and spell-like abilities is probably the same as that between psionic powers and psi-like abilities (i.e. a spell is a special case of a spell-like ability that has additional rules surrounding its use).

As it is, the rules are backwards -- spell-like abilities inherit from spells, which are themselves untyped.

And yeah... you will still find abuses even after that.

[Chanmanm8]

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood your question.

You are correct that it wouldn't be "as bad," but that isn't to say that the DM will be okay with you Shapechanging into a Solar for the DR, regeneration, immunities, etc. I can't really say what the guy perceives as "broken," since I don't know him.

So, to sum it up, the spell wouldn't be "as bad" but it would still be pretty broken. That's because a lot of powerful stuff is still listed as Su, like the Nightmare's Astral Projection ability.

I had contacted him about it and also sent a list of monsters I have been making for situational use (it's huge as expected). Figured he's ahd to deal with this in his 30+ years and I want to use the spell to be less squishy but not ruin the game. I had already initiated conversations with him about other areas of concern and clarification with his homebrew campaign and rules. Just trying to have fun without ridiculousness.

I had some previous good groups doing epic games putting fun and creativity without trying to just "win", so I'm hoping this group ends up going well.

...Spellcasting is never granted by shapechanging -- the MMV spellcasting monsters are an exception, and should probably be thought of as a typo (in the same way that you shouldn't get a vorpal sword for free when turning into a balor)....

I had read about those loopholes of "Balor Mining" and yeah pretty sure that falls into obvious broken cheese in which my DM would thankfully prevent. IMO would treat it like a SU that I can spawn the sword while in form, but no keeping it via Balor Mining blah (thus it dissappears when I'm not a Balor anymore).

[Dragosai]

So if I understand the OP, you are going to use Shape Change and your DM will just say "no you can't" if he feels it is too good? The issue with that is then why bother to take is as one of your spells slots for the day, knowing you could cast it and have it do nothing? But more to the point I really doubt it will be "fun" even if the DM never says no. It's the tool box effect and it is no fun for games. It always ends up in one of two ways;
1) The DM presents the current situation. The caster flips through books for 45 minutes until he finds the right "fix" for said situation. Step 3 boredom.

2) The DM presents the current situation. The caster "could" just use a spell or two to resolve the situation in minutes but does not for some reason not explained in game, and out of game removes the sense of immersion in the game. In other words the rest of the players feel like "gee thanks all mighty wizard for trying to make me feel like my character matters".

[Chanmanm8]

So if I understand the OP, you are going to use Shape Change and your DM will just say "no you can't" if he feels it is too good? The issue with that is then why bother to take is as one of your spells slots for the day, knowing you could cast it and have it do nothing? But more to the point I really doubt it will be "fun" even if the DM never says no. It's the tool box effect and it is no fun for games. It always ends up in one of two ways;
1) The DM presents the current situation. The caster flips through books for 45 minutes until he finds the right "fix" for said situation. Step 3 boredom.

2) The DM presents the current situation. The caster "could" just use a spell or two to resolve the situation in minutes but does not for some reason not explained in game, and out of game removes the sense of immersion in the game. In other words the rest of the players feel like "gee thanks all mighty wizard for trying to make me feel like my character matters".

Well actually in the past I had already setup lists and in my mind have general idea of creature type for warranted resistances and boons from previous years of experience, so usually won't take me 45 minutes like you said, as I also usually make lists ahead of time summarized very shortly and neatly and categorized based on physical stats, type, healing. For me, memorization is easy so usually I don't end up taking forever. In addition, I am not intending to depend on this spell as well, hence my earlier statement in past few posts on using it for less squishy when needed. Third, I've had previous groups (2 long term epic groups included) that worked well with preparation and good spirit for the game as opposed to black and white views on "I better either get to munchkin it or I'm not using it at all". Additionally, the campaign is very RP focused, having 2 sessions a week: 1 for normal/adventure type, and the 2nd focused on RP.

My wizard's main tactics are use of the crowd control mechanics, no save spells, etc as discussed in famous guides on other forums. If anything at all, as I've already been contacting my DM about it, the main use would be for survivability as opposed to killing machine.

And as for time spent on making those lists? Already had them done from the previous years and have used them as such with ease ever since I organized them that way :).

Don't think you should so nonchalantly say "It always ends up in one of two ways". I get where that's coming from due to people not being able to show restraint, or have bitter grudges due to previous groups. My DM doesn't have a problem with it with the ways I've approached him about it so I'm not wasting an hour putting together the material and "hours" flipping through books at the table.

[Dragosai]

Chanmanm8, I am still not sure you understand what I am getting at. If you are only going to use your sense of “fair play” and “good judgment” to try not to ruin the game by use of high level magic, instead of using a much better system, or at least house ruling like 80% of all magic the problem becomes no situation can ever really be dramatic. Insert a tense dramatic RPG moment any kind of situation where say a PC or someone the PC’s care about is going to die, or the innocent village is going to be burned to the ground killing everyone. In that situation “your” control of not abusing a power makes no sense, if you could just cast X spell and save everyone but choose to make it harder because the RAW you are using are awful then it ruins the whole sprit and immersion in said game. “Yeah I could have saved Bob with a waggle of my fingers but I didn’t because……well damn I have no idea why I didn’t save Bob”. That would be the reaction on said character in game as there is no “in game” reason why you would not use the spell to its full potential. This is the issue I have with it, I am not saying that a group cannot self impose restriction on rules they use to make the game more fun for all, but still having full access to broken powers and further more having a character that knows and can use the broken power/spell etc but just does not use to full power for no good reason makes no sense at all.

[Chanmanm8]

And for those reasons I'm to use as I please whether focus is fun or flavor with majority of options and setup made as I would normally use as I choose. With a group like this one I'm in that has everyone seasoned to use whatever rather than revise the system is easier as well.

Also, stick to forum topic which was

1) Discussion and clarification on the extent of the abilities and frequent misuse or stretching in terms of the mechanic wording, which pretty much were answered
2) Munchkin / personal views on wording in terms of spellcasting ability of monster as I said I had frequently seen on various forums over years as I'm sure many have seen as well
3) Generic discussion focusing on the mechanics and not emphasized on opinion regardless of majority dislike of this spell since forever ago lol

and not berating a black / white rant in just flat out removing the ability due to personal taste, which I'm sure you can discuss on a new topic if you'd like k?

[Dragosai]

Ah Sorry Chanmanm8, I didn't realize that you already knew what you were doing was a bad idea.