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2010-07-22, 11:07 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
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- Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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Help me suggest a class for my new player
So, I got a new player for my campaign. He is an old friend that will be joining and he has not played RPG in a few years, plus he never was very into D&D (more of a (old) World of Darkness type).
The is at level 10, so I think it might perhaps be a bit too complicated for him.
Party has a human Barbarian/Hellreaver, a human Mystic Ranger/(ex)Assassin/Jade Phoenix Mage, a human Rogue/Swashbuckler/Invisible Blade, a hellbred Monk/Ardent (he currently goes with Vow of Poverty, but I'm trying to get him to drop it - it gimps him so much!) and a hobgoblin Sorcerer (with a single level of Fighter).
Which class would you suggest for this new player? I thought maybe a support class, but I know he likes being in the frontlines...
Help me, playground!
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2010-07-22, 11:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Location
- Washington
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
What about warlock? They have support abilities, can make a good "frontlines" guy if you use the channel eldritch blast through melee attack blast shape, and with the ability to wear light armor with a decent dexterity he could probably be pretty survivable. Assuming you aren't expecting something incredibly optimized of course.
Game systems I play: DnD 3.5, Pathfinder, Star Wars Saga, Vampire: The Masquerade, Dungeons: The Dragoning, AFBME, Atomic Highway, Dark Heresy, Legend of the 5 Rings 4E, MAID and... EQRPG... Does anyone actually play that?
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2010-07-22, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Finland
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Warblade is nice, though getting dropped at level 10 complicates things somewhat.
Warlock and dragonfire adept are pretty simple, but neither is very frontliney.
Barbarian has rather few options, but what it has (rage -> charge) is strong.
Favoured Soul can stand in the frontlines, and with some help at spell selection has decent but manageable number of options.
Dread Necromancer and Beguiler require him to get in grasp with quite a few spells, but otherwise they're nice. He can start out using handful of fun spells and expand from there as he learns.
Duskblade has few spells known from a limited list (but many uses of said spells, no need to skimp) and very straight-forward approach to combat. It's the basic magic knight.Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-07-22, 11:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
DFA is frontline-y enough though, since you can play it with just a con focus and breathe on everything in front of you. It's also free.
BEEP.
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2010-07-22, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
- Gender
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Hmm, I think that might work. I even have a handbook on melee warlocks, might as well put that advice in play...
Yeah, my first thought was a martial adept, but I already know from the JPM player that they might be a bit hard for a beginner to play (though she certainly bit more than she could chew - she has to choose between ranged and melee each round, has (Mystic) Ranger and Assassin casting, Knowledge Devotion (she keeps forgetting to make those knowledge checks) and maneuvers. Amusingly enough, she fills the healbot role with Healing Touch, a few items and Devoted Spirit maneuvers.
...but I digress ^^ Yeah, 10th level martial adepts are kind hard on a beginner.
You certainly can build a melee warlock, though. Do you have any idea on how a melee dragonfire adept would work (if at all)?
We already have a Lion Totem Barbarian/Hellreaver in the group, so I think another charger would be pretty redundant.
Also one of my first thoughts. Probably gonna suggest him that.
Dread Necro is even made to be in the frontlines. Didn't even think of that. Thanks for pointing it out.
A Beguiler, though... I don't think would find it's niche in the party. We already have an assassin and a rogue. Don't think a beguiler would add much to the party.
Man, Duskblade is one of my favourite class of all times but I didn't even think about it. Can't believe it! ^^
So I guess I'll show him Warlock, Duskblade, Dread Necromancer and Favored Soul. Let's hope he likes one of them.
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2010-07-22, 11:32 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Location
- Washington
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Game systems I play: DnD 3.5, Pathfinder, Star Wars Saga, Vampire: The Masquerade, Dungeons: The Dragoning, AFBME, Atomic Highway, Dark Heresy, Legend of the 5 Rings 4E, MAID and... EQRPG... Does anyone actually play that?
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2010-07-22, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
- Location
- Finland
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Well, it's poor BAB, and the main attraction is the breath weapon, which requires standard actions, so actually hitting things is rather inefficient. Does standing near the front and breathing on enemies count?
One sometimes overlooks the strangest of things. I don't like to think about the minutes (hours!) I've spend looking for a thing I was currently holding in my hand, for example…Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2010-07-23, 12:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- The Flying City Columbia
- Gender
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Warblade's not to complicated, it's only about half a dozen maneuvers at any given moment. Lion Totem Barbarian is even easier, just Rage+Pounce everything within 60'.
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2010-07-23, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
I am a big believer in Druid as the first class anyone plays in D&D at lower levels.
If he wants to be in the front lines, he can grab a stick and start hitting things. If he wants to cast spells, he can simply cast spells. It's all around a good introduction.
I am also a HUGE believer that the first class should be a caster of some sort.
So I am going to say he should play a straight cleric. With a Cleric the Vancian Casting is pretty easy. "Pick some spells from this list that sound cool. Here's how to cast, here's how to attack, go nuts." Maybe point him towards some of the combat spells like Divine Power, etc. And if his spell choice today was bad, he'll get to prepare all new spells tomorrow!
EDIT: Plus screwing up a cleric is hard.Last edited by Superglucose; 2010-07-23 at 12:43 AM.
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2010-07-23, 01:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2009
- Gender
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Barbarian or Fighter is straightforward and rather nice. I don't think level 10 is a good "beginner" level, though - it's about that point that the rules start to get more complex.
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2010-07-23, 07:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
- Location
- Ireland
- Gender
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
My vote's for dragonfire adept as long as he has the Entangling Exhalation feat.
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2010-07-23, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
You actually have enough melee-bots right now, so I think DFA or Warlock or some similar ranged support character with the option of standing closer if necessary would probably be the best choice. Admittedly, I'm biased towards DFA as it is one of my favorite classes, but with entangling exhalation and breath effects, it provides a fair amount of variety, in a simple form for a newbie.
BEEP.
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2010-07-23, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
- Location
- Baltimore, MD
- Gender
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Yeah, I gotta go with Warlock. Very little resource management. Give him a Chausible of fell power and/ or a Warlock Scepter, give him a little guidance on invocations and feats and he's golden.
As a recommendation, I strongly suggest Flee the Scene. It's virtually the only invocation that can directly help other party members.“Wouldn't it be much worse if life were fair and all the terrible things that happen to us, come because we actually deserve them? So now I take comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the Universe”- Marcus Cole
This has become my philosophy!
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2010-07-23, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
I usually have new players (especially starting at high levels) play something basic. Fighter or Rogue straight up. Once they have the hang of the rules then I let them start poking around the books for something more interesting.
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2010-07-23, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2005
- Location
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2010-07-23, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
- Gender
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
"Lower levels"? This is level 10! O.o The big guns have been big guns for a long time now...
This is probably the first time I've heard someone say something like that.
The problem with martial adepts is that you first need to get your player to get the basics of melee combat... and then learn a completely new set of rules. Kind of complicated.
We already have a Lion Totem Barbarian in the game; adding another one would be a bit redundant, I believe.
Thing is the player enjoys being in the thick of combat. I don't think he'd enjoy a ranged characted. A melee warlock could fit both roles, though.
Yeah, I'm going to suggest Warlock and really really hope he plays one. He'd be a lot of a glass cannon without the right directions, though.Last edited by true_shinken; 2010-07-23 at 12:15 PM.
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2010-07-23, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Location
- Suburban Dystopia
- Gender
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Your first class needs to have special abilities without being complicated. Druid and cleric are out, because of the vast array of spells to choose from. If you're going to start with a caster, start with a spontaneous caster with a fixed spell list, and have the DM help with the list.
But warlock... that's awesome for a beginning player. You have mystical powers, but not so many that you cannot choose them yourself, and you can be a frontline fighter, ranged support, stealth expert, diplomat/con artist... and can use wands and staves for nearly anything else..
Ding, You've Got Trophies!Spoiler
Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live. - Samuel Clemens
Oh, and DFTBA.
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2010-07-23, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Warlock does have more book support, but I honestly think you're dismissing DFA a bit too out of hand, considering they're far tougher than warlocks and thus have greater survivability in the thick of things, being able to be nearly purely CON focused and having a higher base HD.
BEEP.
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2010-07-23, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
- Gender
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2010-07-23, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
druid. is to damn hard to fuk up with a druid and can be optimized to the wildshapes or to the caster side. and is a good add to the party for buffs and support heal.
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2010-07-23, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2010
- Location
- Suburban Dystopia
- Gender
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
.
Ding, You've Got Trophies!Spoiler
Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone you may still exist but you have ceased to live. - Samuel Clemens
Oh, and DFTBA.
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2010-07-23, 01:28 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2009
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
but he have ALL avaible, and he can wrong 1 day with this or that spell and can swap for the next day. he can experiment with it. and even if that is to hard willshape optimize is an easy and powerfull way to go.
spontaneus caster with fixed spells is a very very harsh way to go with a new guy, cause any error have to carry all the way to the next level.
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2010-07-24, 12:14 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
- Gender
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
That's reasonable, except the player might not realize he does neet physical stats as a druid, might buy a magical scimitar, might not even realize how powerful wild shape is (since he probably never say the stats of any animal, specially the most powerful like the fleshraker).
He can experiment with his spells and that's about it. Even if he does want to experiment with spells and wild shape forms, that requires a major amount of book-keeping.
"Oh, wait, now I'm an eagle, what are my stats again? Does it affect my saving throws?"
Druid is a very difficult to play class. I certainly don't think it's a good idea for a player new to the game.
That's the good thing about DFAs and Warlocks. They don't have rubbish invocations. Even the ones that are bad are not so bad, really.
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2010-07-24, 06:18 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- The midwest.
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Personally, I'd run a one-shot game at level 3 or 4. I think a warlock or dragonfire adept would be a good introductory character, since they're pretty much just "You have these abilities and can use them whenever." After that session you can have him read over the books and see if there's another class he wants to try. If he's happy with that character though, you can just level it up to 10-ish and introduce him to the regular game.
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2010-07-24, 06:40 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2009
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
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2010-07-25, 12:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2008
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Just house-rule that. Suggest he play a sorcerer and then let him retcon his spells after the first session.
Alternatively, beguiler. Practically no chargen.
This has the advantage that once he settles, he can learn the intricacies of a short spell list and be good to go.Looking for a monster? Making a monster?
Age of Wariors,, A Homebrew Sequel to Tome of Battle (see also the original thread, disciplines table and prestige class table)
All My Homebrew
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2010-07-25, 12:40 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- California
- Gender
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Versus selecting good feats? But the advantage to Druid is the spells can change day to day.
Any character at level 10 will be confusing for a first timer. The rules for magic items alone will give them fits.
[/quote]
This is probably the first time I've heard someone say something like that.
[/QUOTE]
All of the reasons that people give for not starting with a caster and starting with something insane like a Warlock (I've been playing for years and I still don't understand invocations) or boring like a Fighter are crazy.
There is nothing, I repeat, nothing, that is exceptionally difficult with the casting system. The advantage to the divine casters is that they are notoriously difficult to build poorly, and even if you pick the wrong spells you can do it again tomorrow... with all different spells if you want!
Humans don't learn by being talked at. They learn by watching and doing.
So I believe the best way to teach D&D is to a) start at level 1. Not level 4, not level 10, level 1. And b) have them play a caster... preferably a divine caster. What better way to learn how to make a good character than to see that "Longstrider" isn't as useful as "Entangle" because you don't move all that much in combat? You don't just learn how to play your character (and with Druids you learn melee and casting), you learn how the game works.
I'm possibly biased though, because I started with a wizard. He was an evocation specialist and while it wasn't great (lol pewpew with transmutation banned), I had fun. And I learned how the rules worked.
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2010-07-25, 10:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
Yeah, but that does not matter when you choose to build toward a concept that sucks - like for example, the 'druid as meant to be played' from the PHB, sword and board.
You really think a player that goes scimitar-and-wooden-shield and then focuses on wild feats will realize he's not doing so well because he's not picking the right spells?
The rules for magic items...? You have X slots, and Y money to fill those slots. What's confusing about this? The variety of magic items might overwhelm a new player, but the only way to avoid that is Vow of Poverty and it not only locks the player on a saint-like alignment, it spends two feats and is actually weaker than the alternative.
Well, that's because you find melee boring, it seems. A fighter can still have lots of options in combat. Someone with Double-Hit, Evasive Reflexes, Stand Still and Sidestep, for example gets two hits on each attack of opportunity. He can choose each hit to 1) deal damage, 2) stop the target in his place, 3) be replaced by a 5-foot step. Every time he does 1 or 2, he also gets a 5-foot step before that. And that's just four feats.
On a sidenote: I have a player that goes with a Mystic Ranger/Assassin/Jade Phoenix Mage in this groups. Sometimes she just freaks out due to sheer amount of options she has. I wonder if it doesn't stress her, even. Recntly I made a one-shot game and she chose a dwarf fighter only with passive feats like Improved Toughness and Weapon Focus. She got to focus on the interactions and not with which she should do next round, and seemed to have a lot more fun.
Ergo, being more powerful is not a goal for everyone. If the character can contribute to the party meaningfully in a way, most people are already fine by that.
Any caster requires a lot of book-keeping. If you get a fighter, you need to remind or have on you like 2 or 3 sheets of paper with his feats. For a caster, you will almost literally have a spellbook...
There is
Being a teacher myself, I strongly disagree with you.
That much is evident. I just don't have the choise right now, since I'm mid-campaign.
The amount of book keeping of a caster might just scare the player away, though. Not everyone wants to be powerful or to 'learn how to play your character'. Melee characters are intuitive - we all know that hitting people as hard as we can make them drop. Now, for a beginner to know if it is better to blind the enemy, or to use an area of effect against the mook, or to buff his friends, or to use wild shape... That's just too much. For a druid, you must learn about conditions, melee, casting and don't get me started on polymorph. I think it's too much, really.
Well, an evocation specialist plays surprisingly a lot like a ranged warlock, does he not?
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2010-07-25, 12:04 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Pittsburgh
Re: Help me suggest a class for my new player
There are many different ways people learn, some subject you can talk at me and others I do better with a more hands on approach.
I would say have the player be a druid... but the UA Aspect of Nature. It would easily allow the player make up their own aspects of nature and it will give them more than a sword and board feel... The UA version feels more like a manga character so if they like manga/anime then that would help.I have to give Paizo credit...
They took an established work and said they fixed it but didn't actually fix it and yet still made money off from it.
How can you beat that?
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2010-07-25, 12:10 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
- Location
- Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
- Gender