OOTS #737 - The Discussion Thread

[RndmNumGen]

I like the whole neutrality suits death better thing, its a theme that is not often explored in Dnd.

In one of the pantheons I made I gave the god of death the Repose, Darkness, Liberation domains, because the Death domain dealt more with Undeath, which he was against.

I gave an Evil god of greed the domain of Death instead, as well as Trickery and Madness.

[Calmypal]

I have been Durkon in panels 5 through 7.

[Aurabolt]

Well, I'm getting that feeling that Malack is certainly at least LE, and that's where the camaraderie between him and Durkon come in; They're both Lawful and serve as the go-to guys for gods on the prime material plane, so of course they would get along. I like playing Clerics because of now only the technical capabilities, but for roleplay such as this, which I get in my online game.

That being said, I do think Durkon is forgetting the other side of his alignment, at least where his friends are concerned. Sure, brush them off because they made a mistake and simply didn't know the laws, right? Let them get screwed over by a system that you should have read by now, or at least gotten quite the information from your new friend? Thanks a lot man.

Clerics are supposed to look after those in their care. Pelor knows it's what most Clerics-even those who get into the heat of battle-generally do.

[slayerx]

That being said, I do think Durkon is forgetting the other side of his alignment, at least where his friends are concerned. Sure, brush them off because they made a mistake and simply didn't know the laws, right? Let them get screwed over by a system that you should have read by now, or at least gotten quite the information from your new friend? Thanks a lot man.

That's what the chancellor is for...
You have to take into account that durkon does not know that malack and Tarquin are the real brains of this operation. He really does have no reason to assume that the high priest has any real say in the policies of the kingdom... the high priest in azure city for instance seems to not much more than serve the king, and perform ceremonial duties... Futharmore, durkon does not realize the danger of their poisition; he thinks there just sitting in a jail cell and as such their is no real reason to rush through things

Roy and Belkar are likely something durkon will address when he speaks to the chancellar

[Ancalagon]

Roy and Belkar are likely something durkon will address when he speaks to the chancellar

He probably won't have time for that. I assume he'll get invited quickly to watch the Arena Fights. Which is where he spots those he is supposed to rescue. Given that the Festival is going to begin soon (Tarquin seems to rush things, dead wife and celebrating Elans arrival) I doubt Durkon/Chancellor have much time to get things done/people freed. I think Durkon has "until now to the afternoon" until the games begin, the time probably won't suffice - and as it was said before: Durkon has no reason to assume that he needs to hurry. He knows that Roy and Belkar are in for "entering the city without papers".
What would you expect for that offense? A week community service? Two? Surely not an "Immediate Death Penalty".

[Killer Angel]

What would you expect for that offense? A week community service? Two? Surely not an "Immediate Death Penalty".

To be fair, it's not "immediate"!

[Ancalagon]

To be fair, it's not "immediate"!

Before I sent the last post, I looked at the "immediate" and simply KNEW someone would point that out.

To get sentenced before lunch and being dead in the late afternoon is "immediate" enough, me thinks. ;)

[LuPuWei]

He probably won't have time for that. I assume he'll get invited quickly to watch the Arena Fights. Which is where he spots those he is supposed to rescue. Given that the Festival is going to begin soon (Tarquin seems to rush things, dead wife and celebrating Elans arrival) I doubt Durkon/Chancellor have much time to get things done/people freed. I think Durkon has "until now to the afternoon" until the games begin, the time probably won't suffice - and as it was said before: Durkon has no reason to assume that he needs to hurry. He knows that Roy and Belkar are in for "entering the city without papers".
What would you expect for that offense? A week community service? Two? Surely not an "Immediate Death Penalty".

And this works well for the story- we'll get to see 'OotS the Gladiators' even though, technically, Durkon is looking for a way to free them. And yeah, I agree that he has no reason to assume he needs to hurry.

It'll be interesting to see whether the M-dog is E or N...

[geekwraith]

On the Origins of PCs:

Yes, all dwarves in Durkon's homeland treat trees as a horrible enemy to be fought.

It was also recently referred to in the context of paper cuts.

[sihnfahl]

It'll be interesting to see whether the M-dog is E or N...

His spell aura is black.

[sol-decentguy]

This was a great strip giant :)
It's kind of cool to see how the world of OOTS is explained. I have come to view as an environment based character since most of his personality is set but his growth comes from the situations he gets caught up in. This strip really shows how he can cut up like the rest of the group while still maintaining his just cleric nature.
It's also good to know Thor goes to bat for his dwarfs.

[Killer Angel]

Before I sent the last post, I looked at the "immediate" and simply KNEW someone would point that out.

To get sentenced before lunch and being dead in the late afternoon is "immediate" enough, me thinks. ;)

Of course. I was advocating in Lawful Evil terms.

[Blaznak]

Its interesting to see these religions open to interpretation as they are. Kind of fun :)

[Querzis]

On the contrary, I think Redcloak's betrayal is inevitable. We've seen too many hints towards it (SoD itself contains one involving MitD, if you recall) and eventually, Redcloak's going to say enough is enough. I actually think that Tsukiko being a Mystic Theurge is a bit of fridge brilliance now; either Xykon or Redcloak could betray the other and still accomplish their end goal if they keep Tsukiko's allegiance.

You really think one day Redcloak will think that enough is enough????

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He wasnt even ready to betray Xykon after he forced an entire goblin village into slavery and killed most of his remaining family. He was ready to kill his freaking little brother rather then to betray Xykon! If Redcloak wasnt ready to betray Xykon back then, if he didnt thought that enouch was enough right there then he never will! Redcloak wont ever directly betray Xykon. That being said, when Xykon betray Redcloak (which should happen soon enough) then of course I expect Redcloak to fight back...and lose. A spineless coward like Redcloak wont ever stand any chance against Xykon.

[Barlen]

You really think one day Redcloak will think that enough is enough????

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He wasnt even ready to betray Xykon after he forced an entire goblin village into slavery and killed most of his remaining family. He was ready to kill his freaking little brother rather then to betray Xykon! If Redcloak wasnt ready to betray Xykon back then, if he didnt thought that enouch was enough right there then he never will! Redcloak wont ever directly betray Xykon. That being said, when Xykon betray Redcloak (which should happen soon enough) then of course I expect Redcloak to fight back...and lose. A spineless coward like Redcloak wont ever stand any chance against Xykon.

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Actually I think that part of what keeps him following Xykon at this point is the probability that the ritual will lead to both their deaths. This could be seen as Redcloaks ultimate betrayal. When the scheme is complete they both get destroyed by it. In the mean time he lets Xykon believe that it will let him conquer the whole world, but he has been lying to Xykon since the beginning (See SoD). Redcloak just keeps saying to himself "Dont worry it will all be worth it in the end"

Now Xykon is starting to suspect something. He turned his part of the ritual over to Tsukiko to decipher, and he went off to the oracle (who wasn't home) to get more information.

[Kish]

I can flat out promise you that whatever keeps Redcloak following Xykon, it's not a common misconception from Start of Darkness.

(There is no indication the ritual kills the casters.)

[hamishspence]

that pic of the Snarl killing a mortal Xykon, & Redcloak- is more a "What might happen" pic-

given that Redcloak suggested that after they win, Xykon can get "A cushy retirement in the new goblinoid nation" it's probably more likely that both are expected to survive the ritual.

[Gift Jeraff]

My personal idea regarding Malack's alignment: He was Neutral back when he was an adventurer, but then something happened that turned him Evil.

Crazy, wild, stupid theory:

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Tarquin and Malack adventured with Serini, since she "wasn't really the type for retiring", hence explaining how Tarquin knows of Girard. However, Tarquin sold Serini out to Xykon at one point, hence explaining how he got the diary. Malack was also somehow in on it and felt he might as well continue down the path of Evil. They continued adventuring a bit before eventually splitting up (hence Malack saying "four or five").

Other possible candidates for Malack and Tarquin's old adventuring party: Elan's mother (for obvious reasons), Julio Scoundrel (no real reason other than that he seems to be about as old as Tarquin), O-Chul (1. It'd be funny to imagine him as the naive new guy, 2. It would explain why he multi-classed to Paladin: He learned of the Gates and decided to defend the one in his hometown). I sort of stole parts of this idea from someone in an earlier discussion thread.

[xyzchyx]

That's the problem right there. Xykon's stock in trade tactic for dealing with high level annoyances is Soul Bind. No resurrection possible.

I think it's fairly safe to say that the Oracle will not let that happen... being able to infallibly forsee the future, he could take precautions against that eventuality well in advance... for example, having an object on his person that makes his will save high enough that there is no possibility that Xykon could put his soul into a gem.

[JoseB]

I think it's fairly safe to say that the Oracle will not let that happen... being able to infallibly forsee the future, he could take precautions against that eventuality well in advance... for example, having an object on his person that makes his will save high enough that there is no possibility that Xykon could put his soul into a gem.

Or, more easily, making sure that he is not home when Xykon comes calling...

[factotum]

Or, more easily, making sure that he is not home when Xykon comes calling...

I agree. Of course, it's possible the Oracle has randomly headed off somewhere to earn enough XP to regain his lost Expert level, but I think it's more likely he knew the scary lich was coming and chose to be somewhere else!

[Garwain]

They don't have coffee tables in the EoB?

[snafu]

(Really, it's not just a habit of modern people. Most scholars I've encountered believe those evil pre-Olympian Titans were the gods of the people who lived in Greece before the Hellenes arrived.)

Interesting. Hadn't heard that one, but it makes sense. You get the same kind of thing in Irish mythology, where there's a succession of different sets of... well, gods or heroes, the distinction's not clear-cut. And there's speculation that each one corresponds to a different past culture. The new culture can't accept the old culture's gods, so it turns them into heroes or elves or saints or devils depending on how they fit into the mythology.

Happens everywhere, I suppose, and it's probably always the death god who gets the worst retcon.

You'll see the same sort of thing with the Ugaritic pantheon, the gods of various cultures ancestral to the Phoenicians. I've no idea what these deities were like back in the Bronze Age when they were worshipped, but nowadays the very sound of their names is redolent of Lovecraftian horrors.

[Nilan8888]

The only time the Romans tried to stamp out the religion of a conquered people was when they conquered the Celts, with the whole druidic human sacrifice thing. That wasn't because they had different gods to the Romans, but because there were irreconcilable alignment differences.

Actually there was another, very understandable historical/political reason for that.

I won't get into it here, though.

[deimos3428]

Pretty sure that "goddes" is not a typo. It's a pun in reference to "Hel".

[kusje]

Or, more easily, making sure that he is not home when Xykon comes calling...

I'm not too sure I agree with both of you. If it were that simple, why didn't he take similar precautions when Belkar killed him? The fact that he "allowed" Belkar to kill him suggests some sort of restrictions on the Oracle's power that we do not know about.

[sihnfahl]

If it were that simple, why didn't he take similar precautions when Belkar killed him?

It set things up to get Belkar's MoJ off, tone down his behaviour (see: fake character development), keep the Order from finally snapping and dropping him before his part in stopping Xykon played out...

[Querzis]

I'm not too sure I agree with both of you. If it were that simple, why didn't he take similar precautions when Belkar killed him? The fact that he "allowed" Belkar to kill him suggests some sort of restrictions on the Oracle's power that we do not know about.

He didnt allow Belkar to kill him, he predicted Belkar would kill him. Thats the whole point, the Oracle has to say the truth when someone ask him a question, even if the question involve killing him or, in Xykon case, destroying the universe. Reread the strip where Belkar kill him, he does try to get around his own prediction but it doesnt work, hes killed anyway and it definitly seems thats what he expected to happen. Thats why he dodged Xykon, because once he predict something, there is no going back. Thats how Oracles are supposed to work, its not because you can see the future that you can change it but you can just avoid predicting the future.

[snafu]

In one of the pantheons I made I gave the god of death the Repose, Darkness, Liberation domains, because the Death domain dealt more with Undeath, which he was against.

I gave an Evil god of greed the domain of Death instead, as well as Trickery and Madness.

I seem to remember there being a CRPG - an NWN module I think? - where one of the NPCs was a cleric of a death god. He had a massive grudge against undead and all forms of necromancy, which he saw as blasphemous.

[jidasfire]

There's no definite evidence that Malack is evil. So far, we've seen him be hostile towards someone he thought was Nale (and really, who could blame anyone for hating Nale?) and then apologizing afterward. Now yes, he does serve in a pretty high capacity in a Lawful Evil society, which does count as strong circumstantial evidence, but it's possible for a LN person to thrive in a LE society if they are less into the actual oppression aspect and more into the rules and order side of things. He really could fit either way as of now.