Warlocks?

[Adrayll]

So i'm looking to pick a character once my turn DMing is over (3.5e). We'll be around level 5 or so. I've been looking at warlocks, and they look like they would be fun to play. What is the general opinion of warlocks? Are they effective? What are their strengths and weaknesses? Things to beware of? High points?

Also, i seem to remember somewhere about warlocks having behavioral injunctions for fluff reasons, or something like that. Where is that, and am I imagining that?

Also, any other suggestions along similar lines?

[Prodan]

They're ok.

[awa]

They are pretty good characters at the lower end of optimization and their a lot less book keeping then the other magic using classes.

edit hideous blow (i think that was what it's called) is a terrible terrible power never pick it.

While charisma increases your dc you don't actually need a good charisma because many if not most abilities do not give saves anyhow.

[TooManyBadgers]

The behavior thing is probably coming from the Binder (a separate base class from the Tome of Magic) dip that's often exploited to use Hellfire Warlock (a prestige class from the Fiendish Codex 2) without suffering the associated drawbacks.

[gorfnab]

This handbook can give you a rundown on what you can expect from warlock and how to build more effective ones: Warlock Information Compilation

[Prodan]

Also, i seem to remember somewhere about warlocks having behavioral injunctions for fluff reasons, or something like that. Where is that, and am I imagining that?

Player's Handbook 2

[Xefas]

In my personal experience, if your group doesn't spend a lot of time on internet forums or playing at conventions, there's a good chance they'll tell you Warlocks are the most broken thing in the history of D&D.

My primary group, fortunately, didn't fall prey to this, but it seems like any other group I've met swears up and down that Warlocks are the epitome of everything that is wrong mechanically with the system.

This conversation, almost verbatim:
Me: "Well, I was considering something like a Sorcerer or a Warlo-"
DM Guy: "Warlock?! BLARAGHABLARAHG -8 minute tirade-"
Me: "But, I-"
DM Guy: "Nooooo! BLARAGAHGHAG -3 more minutes of garbled hatred-"
Me: "Well...maybe an Artificer."
DM Guy: "Those underpowered sacks of crap? Meh, I guess if you wanna be a gimp."

That aside, when I'm DMing, I let Warlocks get 1 invocation per level as a moderate buff to the class. When I'm playing, I like Summon Swarm at level 1, or possibly Baleful Utterance if you feel like getting creative and your DM is lenient in that regard. Try to sunder quivers, spell component pouches, codpieces, etc.

[super dark33]

warlocks are awosome, if you add the prestiege class of putting a demon in you (i dont know what it called in english) itll be better
hideos blaw is good if you have high str

[TooManyBadgers]

warlocks are awosome, if you add the prestiege class of putting a demon in you (i dont know what it called in english) itll be better
hideos blaw is good if you have high str

Demonbinder takes a full round of inactivity to use its abilities at all, doesn't get the crafting abilities which provide high-level Warlocks with versatility, doesn't advance Eldritch Blast or the caster level of your invocations, requires Drow (and thus +2 LA, which is a very bad thing) and delays invocation advancement in exchange for some pretty mediocre abilities (which are only usable a few times per day). It's not unplayable, but be warned that it kind of sucks.

And Hideous Blow turns your ranged touch attack into a melee attack (a bad thing) that requires a weapon attack roll (also a bad thing) to take effect, and eats one of your invocations known to do so.

Either can be used in a workable character, but both make a Warlock weaker than avoiding them altogether.

[unimaginable]

Hideous Blow is ass, but Eldritch Glaive is fun. Works vaguely like Hideous Blow, except it doesn't suck.

[Greenish]

Baleful Utterance if you feel like getting creative and your DM is lenient in that regard. Try to sunder quivers, spell component pouches, codpieces, etc.

That is a strike below the belt. You, sir, are no gentleman.

Or, as the movie quote goes: How unsporty! They must be Belgians!

[Vantharion]

That is a strike below the belt. You, sir, are no gentleman.

Or, as the movie quote goes: How unsporty! They must be Belgians!

This combination just made my morning.

I shattered my player cleric's Longsword... Which also happened to be his Holy Symbol...

However it was not outright because I'm cruel, more because his character was a zealous xenophobic cleric of heironeous and wouldn't loot magical items or upgrades because it was against his character's nature (Even those as a player he LOVES loot)

I've been considering playing a 'reskinned' warlock.
Warlocks draw their power from a 'source' that grants them it; usually fiends, demons, fey... And PHB2 I believe mentions gaining Celestial power.
I was considering asking my DM if he would let me play a Celestial Powered Warlock who would be Lawful Good (Crusader Overzealous) even though its against the usual alignment requirements.

I personally think that the +6 to Intimidate, Diplo and Bluff invocation is amazing, and with a bit of tweaking is REALLY powerful.

I would talk to your DM before you grab (And abuse) the Fly Invocation. Generally in my games/friends games we agree not to do completely jerk moves... They don't grab Fly and cast the Locate City Bomb with Energy addition - Fire near the top of the atmosphere... I won't throw Dire Acid Sharks with Class levels at them...
Some DMs enjoy the challenge of handling whatever the players throw at them, my group mostly enjoys trying to stay within the Dungeon paradigm which D&D works best in.

Hideous Blow is really bad though. Swarm is just godly at low levels however.

[Greenish]

This combination just made my morning.

I shattered my player cleric's Longsword... Which also happened to be his Holy Symbol...

However it was not outright because I'm cruel, more because his character was a zealous xenophobic cleric of heironeous and wouldn't loot magical items or upgrades because it was against his character's nature (Even those as a player he LOVES loot)

I've been considering playing a 'reskinned' warlock.
Warlocks draw their power from a 'source' that grants them it; usually fiends, demons, fey... And PHB2 I believe mentions gaining Celestial power.
I was considering asking my DM if he would let me play a Celestial Powered Warlock who would be Lawful Good (Crusader Overzealous) even though its against the usual alignment requirements.

I personally think that the +6 to Intimidate, Diplo and Bluff invocation is amazing, and with a bit of tweaking is REALLY powerful.

I would talk to your DM before you grab (And abuse) the Fly Invocation. Generally in my games/friends games we agree not to do completely jerk moves... They don't grab Fly and cast the Locate City Bomb with Energy addition - Fire near the top of the atmosphere... I won't throw Dire Acid Sharks with Class levels at them...
Some DMs enjoy the challenge of handling whatever the players throw at them, my group mostly enjoys trying to stay within the Dungeon paradigm which D&D works best in.

Wait, which edition are you talking about? And what "fly power" is so broken?

[Telonius]

Their biggest problem is that the damage scales poorly per level. At 20th level, you get a whopping 9d6 base damage for your eldritch blast, +2d6 if you have a Chasuble. (Some Blasts can add extra status effects and negative levels, but by the time you get them a lot of things will be immune). 11d6, or 38.5 damage, once per round. You can bump up the total amount of damage dealt a bit by using Blast Shape essences to get Cones or Bursts, but other than that, there's not much to be done. Meanwhile, the Fighter has just one-shotted the Tarrasque, the Druid and his dog have eaten half your opponents, the Wizard has made his own demiplane and declared himself God, and the Rogue just dealt 10d6+20 sneak attack damage per hit from having Craven.

That's not to say they're useless characters. For a sneaky campaign, they can work extremely well. As mentioned before, with some Binder shenanigans and Hellfire Warlock, they can get an extra 6d6 damage per eldritch blast at basically no cost. UMD as a class skill is always a great plus. And they can be absolutely terrific bad guys - "Flee the Scene" alone is great for escaping. The other time they really shine is when the party has to do with multiple encounters per day. The other casters have a limit on spells per day, but the Warlock never runs out of invocations.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Their biggest problem is that the damage scales poorly per level. At 20th level, you get a whopping 9d6 base damage for your eldritch blast, +2d6 if you have a Chasuble. (Some Blasts can add extra status effects and negative levels, but by the time you get them a lot of things will be immune). 11d6, or 38.5 damage, once per round. You can bump up the total amount of damage dealt a bit by using Blast Shape essences to get Cones or Bursts, but other than that, there's not much to be done. Meanwhile, the Fighter has just one-shotted the Tarrasque, the Druid and his dog have eaten half your opponents, the Wizard has made his own demiplane and declared himself God, and the Rogue just dealt 10d6+20 sneak attack damage per hit from having Craven.

Actually, there's other ways to improve this. Empower and Quicken SLA feats both work for EB and will significantly increase damage output if used judiciously. Breaking Action Economy also works well, but beware DM's wrath.

That's not to say they're useless characters. For a sneaky campaign, they can work extremely well. As mentioned before, with some Binder shenanigans and Hellfire Warlock, they can get an extra 6d6 damage per eldritch blast at basically no cost. UMD as a class skill is always a great plus. And they can be absolutely terrific bad guys - "Flee the Scene" alone is great for escaping. The other time they really shine is when the party has to do with multiple encounters per day. The other casters have a limit on spells per day, but the Warlock never runs out of invocations.

6d6? You, my friend, need to expand your horizons.

Since we're already using Nab or Stronheart to bypass the penalties of HFW, we may we well get every last drop out of it. Legacy Champion is an otherwise uninteresting PrC, which advances class abilities 8/10. So you pick HFW to advance.

With Binder1/Warlock6/HFW3/Legacy Champion 10, you have +22d6 from Hellfire Blast. Have a nice day.

[Furnok]

Right now I’m in a campaign that is mostly in cities and deals mainly with spy missions. So my Warlock is kitted out with the +6 Imt/Dip/Bluff he is 3rd level and can bluff the pants off of guards, spider climb, and he can shatter and locks he wants. My warlock teamed up with a skill monkey rouge and they are a extremely well paired spying team. I think the best thing about a Warlock is they are extremely flexible especially at higher levels when you get the ability to make items and get the take 10 ability with UMD. One of their weaknesses is that at higher levels they will never be the “heavy hitter” but more of a support member of a group.

[Vantharion]

Wait, which edition are you talking about? And what "fly power" is so broken?

It isn't that fly is directly 'Broken' its that it usually changes the paradigm of gameplay away from what my group prefers to play.
If player A (Wizard) flies, the DM adapts and throws something to challenge player A, a gargoyle. say the gargoyle is pestering the wizard in the air. The makes the fighter less useful who has stacked his feats together so he's good with a melee weapon, his usefulness with a bow is nil.

Fly is one of those moves I consider to be not quite as nice to the DM, like using class or feat selection without running it by the DM or saying 'Screw the plot, I dimension shift away' because the DM drank the last soda.
It doesn't break the gameplay, it just can be bothersome.
This isn't saying that we never break those paradigms, we just don't play DND like it's all out war between the player and the DM. The reason we do this, is when it comes to Rules vs Fun, fun usually wins at our table.

[thompur]

Warlocks are great fun to [play! They can't be broken(in an overpowered way), and, with the exception of hideous blow, any invocations you take can be useful, to varying degrees. Get Fell Flight or Flee the Scene as your first lesser invocation. FF for 24hr/day flying( obviously very useful, but not overpowering), and FtS is one of the very few invocations that can help others in the party( you can take other party members with you). I eventually get both, since the lesser level doesn't have that many really good offensive invocations.

[Bosh]

Warlocks are a very fun class to play without being powerful.

However, pretty much everyone who doesn't have a good grasp of 3.5ed mechanics thinks that they're overpowered. It's gotten to a point in which "do you think that warlocks are overpowered" is a good litmus test for figuring out if people have a good grasp of how 3.5ed mechanics work. So the biggest downside of playing them is listening to people blather (falsely) about how overpowered they are, usually by construction bizarre hypothetical situations that would let warlocks kick a lot of ass that never actually happen in real campaigns.

For example the GMs that I've played with have pretty much ALL banned warlocks for being overpowered and the only class any of them banned aside from warlocks was the dragon shaman. Everyone was fine with druids because everyone knows that core is balanced *head desk*

[Lysander]

Playing a warlock is basically like playing a superhero. You get a small but growing list of powers you can use whenever you want.

The downside is that your powers don't expand exponentially as you get more powerful. A wizard or sorcerer can enslave mighty demons and angels, make their own dimensions, etc. You on the other hand get to do stuff like fly, teleport, and be invisible without limit. It's still really good, but it's not world changing in its scope. In some ways this is a plus because warlocks still get some potent abilities but are far less likely to derail a campaign world.

Warlocks btw are not necessarily evil. You can choose to gain power either from demons or from the fey. If the latter then you only have to be chaotic.

[Furnok]

The only problem my DM had with my Warlock is that the EB/invocations never run out and that the damage from EB was un-typed magical energy (he is really big into giving the bad guys energy resistances). But then I give him the argument that yeah they never run out but the range is limited, they do very little when compared to the fighters w/ multiply attacks, and little damage when compared to any of the wizards evocation spells.

Also his DM style is more of a crawl style where we go through a whole bunch of encounters so the use of resources have to be closely watched because a lot of times it seems the big bad guys always pounce when we have been girding through a long dungeon and HP/spells are low. With other groups that only have 2-3 really big encounters then rest the Warlock is not as powerful. To me the Warlock is a good character for long grinding campaigns, solo campaigns, or as a support role to an average size group where all of the traditional roles are filled (Tank, Spell caster, Healer, and Skill Monkey).

[Sergeantbrother]

Warlocks are a very fun class to play without being powerful.

However, pretty much everyone who doesn't have a good grasp of 3.5ed mechanics thinks that they're overpowered. It's gotten to a point in which "do you think that warlocks are overpowered" is a good litmus test for figuring out if people have a good grasp of how 3.5ed mechanics work. So the biggest downside of playing them is listening to people blather (falsely) about how overpowered they are, usually by construction bizarre hypothetical situations that would let warlocks kick a lot of ass that never actually happen in real campaigns.

For example the GMs that I've played with have pretty much ALL banned warlocks for being overpowered and the only class any of them banned aside from warlocks was the dragon shaman. Everyone was fine with druids because everyone knows that core is balanced *head desk*

It strikes me as strange that so many people think that they are overpowered, perhaps because in D&D and among D&D players there is too much importance placed on being able to use the same super-natural power over and over again. While it is convenient to be able to use a power as many times as you want, when you have the shear power and diversity of the spell list that a normal caster has, you really don't need a literally unlimited number of castings.

I like warlocks for the same reason I like spontaneous casting, its a pain in the butt to keep up with number of spells of each level a day much less which spells have been memorized - which is why a warlock is cool. But they certainly aren't as powerful as a normal caster.

[Lysander]

I think it's that in some situations a warlock's powers are an "I WIN" button. If you can fly and shoot eldritch blasts without limit, you can kill anything that can't fly and has no ranged attack. And you can do it all day. So it's not that warlocks are overpowered against all enemies. Just ones with few ways of responding to magical opponents. Even though invocations are not on the whole that powerful, some opponents don't have a way to respond. Which just means the DM has to pick enemies more carefully.

[Theodoxus]

If it were couched in those terms, I think any reasonable DM would agree with you. However, nearly everytime I've seen someone broach the subject of Warlocks, it goes something like:

Player 1: "I want to play a Warlock!"
DM: "uh, no, they're too powerful"
Player 1: "What?!? They have like 2 spells."
Player 2: "Yeah! Unlimited spells!"
DM: "Exactly, even the ranger will run out of arrows eventually."
Player 1: "But that's cool! Unlimited flight too!"
DM: "What!?! You can't get flight, no way, that'll break the game. You'll make the wizard cry"
Player 2: "I want unlimited flight! Then I can throw fireballs on the ground and burn people!!!"
Player 1: "Ooh, that sounds fun! I can make my blast go in a cone, straight down!"
DM: "And that's why I said no."

Even in this day and age of the internet hive mind, too many people associate spellcasters with blasters. Warlocks are crappy casters, but they get all the abilities a blaster would ever want...

Unlimited blast? check
Unlimited flight? check
Unlimited invisibility? check
Useful abilities that make their blasts more effective? check

Warlocks make even blasting Psions cry. All I can say is thank god blasting is so suboptimal for eliminating badguys. They're fun (especially cranking out 22d6 - earthquake!) but not campaign ending.

[TooManyBadgers]

The Warlocks=Broken thing could be coming from groups that start at level 1, when all-day* 3-dimensional mobility is unique and 1d6 (or, heaven forbid, 1d8+1d6+1.5xStr) is enough to drop most enemies. Sure, Incarnum does it better, but I don't think the sorts of groups that balk at the Warlock would exactly embrace the Totemist either.

Also, in the wrong hands, at-will Shatter can get really annoying really ****ing fast.

*The quic-n-easy solution for a DM frustrated by a Wizard evading an encounter with Fly is to throw another encounter in once the Wizard doesn't have Fly. Warlocks don't allow that.

[Prodan]

*The quic-n-easy solution for a DM frustrated by a Wizard evading an encounter with Fly is to throw another encounter in once the Wizard doesn't have Fly. Warlocks don't allow that.

Dungeon with low ceilings.

[super dark33]

Demonbinder takes a full round of inactivity to use its abilities at all, doesn't get the crafting abilities which provide high-level Warlocks with versatility, doesn't advance Eldritch Blast or the caster level of your invocations, requires Drow (and thus +2 LA, which is a very bad thing) and delays invocation advancement in exchange for some pretty mediocre abilities (which are only usable a few times per day). It's not unplayable, but be warned that it kind of sucks.

than avoiding them altogether.

no no , in the full arcane, there is a prestieg class with a picture showing a demon scaring a big orc

[Adrayll]

BTW, if you've modified your blast, can you turn those off. ie: your blast deals fire damage, and you come across a fire elemental. are you screwed? or can you temporarily "turn off" the fire aspect of it?

EDIT: (ninja'd)

no no , in the full arcane, there is a prestieg class with a picture showing a demon scaring a big orc

that's acolyte of the skin

[Prodan]

Yes you can.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

that's acolyte of the skin

And it sucks even worse, due to 1/2 casting progression