Quick 4th ed Minion Question

[Talakeal]

Are the players supposed to be able to tell if a monster is a minion or not? The few times I have played the edition some DMs would tell you if asked, and some would refuse, and this made a HUGE difference on tactics used. Which one is the official stance?
If it is the latter, is there some way in game to tell which enemies are minions (other than attacking them and seeing if you have to roll damage of course!)

[Kaje]

I wouldn't tell them. To the characters, they are all valid threats and targets.

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

I don't usually tell my players beforehand, but once they kill one without rolling damage, they see it's a minion, and know that the others like it are probably also minions. I also tend to drop hints about the obvious weaknesses of them, or the power disparity between them and their non-minion allies.

[Mando Knight]

When there's four or five of the same monster sticking around in one encounter, odds are it's a minion. Swarming is the only thing they're good at.

[Swordgleam]

As you say, it makes a huge difference in tactics. So it depends on what kind of game you want. But I generally don't tell my players. I don't think there's an official stance.

[NecroRebel]

I often just tell the players. They'll figure it out the moment they hit one anyway, and, as Mando says, they're the only enemy type likely to have more than two duplicates in any one battle.

Also, I generally feel that if something is weak enough to be a minion, the characters themselves should recognize the fact that that thing is not going to take much effort to dispatch. For instance, a mid-Paragon character is going to look at an Ogre and think, "Hey, there's a dozen holes in that thing's guard! Let's exploit them!" and promptly slaughter the thing. That's what it means to be a minion, IMO; they're so weak, fragile, or lack skill to such an extent that they're trivial to deal a fatal blow to, while non-minions it actually takes a little bit to find that fatal opening.

[Swordgleam]

I'm curious as to what you guys mean about "if there's more than a few of the same enemy."

If you have a group of goblins facing your party, do you make it obvious that two are artillery, one is a controller, and three are soldiers? Or do you just say, "A group of goblins. Some have large axes, others have slings and bows, and one has a menacing-looking staff." Or do you just always use the exact mini for everything?

Because my party never knows for sure if two enemies are identical. They might be soldier and brute versions of the same enemy, or soldier and minion, or all the same, or maybe I modified them slightly for fun.

[FoE]

It's an ongoing debate. You have to make up your own mind whether or not to tell your players. I think most DMs don't, but they tend to drop lots of hints that certain monsters are minions.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Don't tell them they're minions. And tell them you're not saying which monsters are minions. They'll be sure to figure it out on their own soon enough - and if they know they have to check for minions, they'll act accordingly.

[Kurald Galain]

As said above, there is no official stance that I'm aware of. In my opinion, the game is more fun if you don't tell them.

[Zaydos]

As said above, there is no official stance that I'm aware of. In my opinion, the game is more fun if you don't tell them.

This +1.
I've only DM'd one shots for 4e and then they weren't planned so I didn't use many minions (ended up designing monsters as I went, but hey everyone had fun so it worked out) but when I'm a player I prefer it if the DM doesn't tell us. We'll learn quickly enough which enemies in this dungeon are minions, but it's less fun if we're told.

[Anasazi]

In all honestly, that shouldn't be the question out of the players mouth and therefore you shouldnt need to answer it. The question out of the players mouth should be 'what do they look like?'
Minion's arent overly geared, they're usually pretty basic looking in comparison to their boss, and you should never use minions without some form of commander present. The weapons they're carrying alone should be dead giveaways to how powerful they are because you also have to account for the looting variable. Its your job as the gm to describe in detail what they look like, if your players have an iq over 100 they should understand the difference and know to ask that question. If they dont, its your job to teach it to them.

[KillianHawkeye]

is there some way in game to tell which enemies are minions (other than attacking them and seeing if you have to roll damage of course!)

I don't usually tell my players beforehand, but once they kill one without rolling damage, they see it's a minion

IMO, this is a mistake. I make my players roll the damage even against minions so it takes them a little longer to figure out what's what. I haven't tried it, but if you want your minions to last a little longer, I've seen house rules giving minions hp equal to their level so they don't always die in one hit from stuff like Cleave, but still go down really easily.

My biggest problem is the fact that minions do fixed amounts of damage. That seems to be a dead giveaway when every kobold spear does exactly 4 points of damage, so I've occaisionally fudged it up or down a point to maintain the mystery. Has anybody come up with a more elegant solution to this problem?

EDIT: I agree that an experienced warrior should be able to tell if an opponent seems easily dispatched, but you don't need to tell him it's a minion.

[jiriku]

The flat damage was just intended to minimize DM workload. You could replace it with an equivalent die roll. 4 damage could become 1d4+2 or 1d6+1 or 1d8, for example.

[Sir_Elderberry]

No, I don't. I still make them roll damage, and then I say "it dies." The players glance at each other and guess, probably. If they don't know yet, I roll a d6 and pretend that they just happen to be hitting the same damage.

[KillianHawkeye]

If they don't know yet, I roll a d6 and pretend that they just happen to be hitting the same damage.

Yeah, I've done that, too. But I don't like it.

[nyjastul69]

In all honestly, that shouldn't be the question out of the players mouth and therefore you shouldnt need to answer it. The question out of the players mouth should be 'what do they look like?'
Minion's arent overly geared, they're usually pretty basic looking in comparison to their boss, and you should never use minions without some form of commander present. The weapons they're carrying alone should be dead giveaways to how powerful they are because you also have to account for the looting variable. Its your job as the gm to describe in detail what they look like, if your players have an iq over 100 they should understand the difference and know to ask that question. If they dont, its your job to teach it to them.

The equipment disparity is one of my quibbles with 4e. My players immediately noticed artillery don't come with a standard issue melee weapon, minions don't have missile weapons, etc. I changed this, but I really shouldn't have had to. The designers should have caught this.

[Swordgleam]

Has anybody come up with a more elegant solution to this problem?

You know, I'm surprised my players didn't catch this. I didn't realize until one of them bought the MM1 in preparation for running his own 4e game, but none of them even knew what minions were. My player, upon reading the MM, said, "This really explains a lot. I'd been wondering why some enemies died so easily."

[TreesOfDeath]

I think your not meant to tell them, but describe their armour as being shabbier and convey via flavour that their pushovers for the characthers

[Tiki Snakes]

The equipment disparity is one of my quibbles with 4e. My players immediately noticed artillery don't come with a standard issue melee weapon, minions don't have missile weapons, etc. I changed this, but I really shouldn't have had to. The designers should have caught this.

Archers looking like Archers is a problem now?

[nyjastul69]

Archers looking like Archers is a problem now?

I don't want to get in edition war here. I was just pointing out a particularly easy way to ID a monsters role. Archers have no way to fight if they get based. I found this an odd design principle. Like I said, it's a quibble. I just give them weapons that should have been in their stat block to begin with. Thank you for your insightful and constructive post.

[nightwyrm]

I think your not meant to tell them, but describe their armour as being shabbier and convey via flavour that their pushovers for the characthers

This is pretty much what I do. But my players are savvy enough to know that if I'm plunking down a dozen or so enemies, some of them are gonna die in one hit so and they'll test the monster out for a bit to make sure they aren't blowing a daily on a minion.

[Sir_Elderberry]

Yeah, I've done that, too. But I don't like it.

I know it won't work forever, but it buys me a few turns of player confusion. My players are pretty good at what they do and I need all the confusion I can get.

[cdrcjsn]

If you really want to screw with your players, once they've gotten good at guessing who's a minions and who's not, throw them some minions with this ability:

Durable (No Action/Encounter Power) Ignore the damage from the first attack that hits during this encounter. Ongoing effects apply normally.

Then it'll take two hits to down a minion and they'll be really confused as to what's going on.

[valadil]

The players are not automatically entitled to that information. A lot of the time though, it makes sense to tell them. The leader of the kobold tribe will likely have a larger stature and shinier loot than his kin. It's okay if the enemy with golden armor stands out as being more important than the rest.

I've actually been tempted to make false minions. If the players can use their game knowledge of minions, enemies should be able to do so too. Get 10 guys to dress alike. 8 of them are minions, 2 are real enemies.

[Shatteredtower]

Even when you're giving no clue, there are times a minion is obviously a minion. Legion devils come to mind immediately, as do medium size howlers. Mimic spawn may not be readily discernible from impersonators, but once you're facing more than one, you know most are minions right up until they attack.

I prefer to keep minion status circumstantial. The brute you drove off early in the adventure might resurface as a minion in the final encounter, or one of the cannon fodder that escaped your assault on a hidden gate returns as an elite soldier when you reach the treasury you'd come to rob. You don't even have to rewrite the stat block in some cases. Just note the familiar face among the minions or others in the latter encounter. The same thing can be done for artillery to soldier conversion, among others.

I don't see nyjastul69's problem. Monster Manual shows kobold minions with ranged attacks, while listed goblin and hobgoblin artillery had melee weapons, should they need them.

[Saph]

The DMs I've played under usually don't mention it, and I generally play along, as identifying the monsters is one of the more fun parts of an encounter. Most players with any smarts can generally peg the minions after about one round.

I do roll my eyes a bit when the DM goes too far with the charade, though, like making us roll damage and pretending to check the minion's HP.

[ninja_penguin]

I never announce that a monster is a minion. Most of my players will kinda get that 'I'm pretty sure X, Y, or Z is a minion because otherwise this is a TPK situation', and most of them figure it out once something dies to autodamage or a rather weak hit compared to everything else in the area.

That said, ranged minions can be very effective if they survive a few rounds.

[mobdrazhar]

As a DM I don't tell my players which are and aren't minions as trying to work out if they are minions is half the fun. But then again I then throw my players a curve ball and they expect minions and they get non-minions (like the small "dungeon" they are in atm.

[Kurald Galain]

IMO, this is a mistake. I make my players roll the damage even against minions so it takes them a little longer to figure out what's what. I haven't tried it, but if you want your minions to last a little longer, I've seen house rules giving minions hp equal to their level

It really depends on your players, but I figure that even with HP equal to their level, minions will always die in one hit, and non-minions will never die in one hit. Most players I know, as soon as they see a monster go down in one hit, will immediately jump to the conclusion that it was a minion.

I think your not meant to tell them, but describe their armour as being shabbier and convey via flavour that their pushovers for the characthers

If you do this, then in effect you are precisely telling your players that these are minions, just with better flavor text.