A Thought: Metamagic with Inherent Drawbacks

[DragoonWraith]

So, I don't really like the Metamagic scheme of increasing spell level. Invariably, it doesn't work out right. Most are overpriced, but become overpowered if they're priced cheaper. Metamagic reducers are one of the quicker routes to breaking the game. Etc.

Someone pointed out then, the "Swift" versions of some spells - same spell, same spell level, but it's a Swift Action and only lasts 1 round.

Well what if the Quicken Spell feat turned any non-instantaneous spell into a Swift Action, but turned its duration into 1 round? It seems fitting (you're hurrying here), and it seems balanced for many things. Instantaneous effects are the ones that I'm not sure on; certainly being able to spam blasts seems reasonable enough, at least from the perspective of "things we'd like to see the magic system be capable of", but I'd be concerned about various (Creation) spells.

Maybe an Extended Spell requires 1 round to cast. A Persisted Spell, maybe an hour? Still probably overpowered, but it's not nearly so difficult to imagine situations where an hour spent casting a spell is going to be difficult.

Still and Silent... honestly I'd remove them as Metamagic altogether, just make them Eschew Gestures and Eschew Chants. They'd be good but I don't think they'd be so good that every wizard ever takes them. Maybe standard actions becoming full-round would be appropriate, though.

Empower could take a Full-round Action cast time reasonably, I'd think. Maximize... 1 round seems too long, but maybe Swift+Full-Round?

I dunno, all of these examples are purely hypothetical and meant only as examples, not really suggestions for specific implementation. I was just wondering what people thought of this idea in general.

[drengnikrafe]

While I like the idea behind this, it's actual implimentation, even if all the bugs are worked out, would be almost entirely reliant upon the people who would be playing with these rules. For people who've never heard of optimization, or like to play blaster wizards or something, I can see this being very useful, on the edge of being overpowered in some cases. In a group where they make the most of every level and eat things with CRs 5 above their level, I wouldn't even try.

[Draz74]

I like this idea.

Frankly I wouldn't mind if, say, Sculpt Spell just required a Spellcraft check instead of boosting the spell's level. But it would be a Spellcraft check that scaled in a reasonable way, so that it never becomes an auto-success at high levels; and if you fail the check, your action is wasted. (And if that's still too powerful, your spell slot could be wasted too.)

Chain Spell ... frankly should cost one spell slot per target. You're taking a feat to allow you to cast the same spell, over and over, within the same standard action. Seems reasonable. If it's too powerful, we could keep the "half damage, -4 save DC" rules that Chain Spell currently has.

As for your Persistent Spell proposed rules ... it would keep the number of Persistent spells small, but would still be extremely powerful. It would be hard to find a Cleric who wouldn't spend a feat and an hour every morning just to have Divine Power all day ... and don't get me started on gishes and Wraithstrike.

[Milskidasith]

So wait, in exchange for minor penalties that aren't going to affect most situations (casting a persisted or extended spell during combat is generally not an option, quicken spell isn't usually used for long duration buffs so much as it is used for getting off more spells or comboing them, though it does hurt people trying to be buffbots/buff themselves, I guess), all metamagic is free?

How is this supposed to make metamagic reasonable, again? The only thing this does is possibly make massive numbers of persisted spells impossible, but generally only a MM reducer abusing DMM persist cleric could persist more than a couple spells anyway, excluding serious shenanigans (well, more serious shenanigans, anyway, since at least the DMM persist cleric probably burns four or five feats, a domain, and some PB on getting 21+ turn attempts or MM reducers to need less).

Now casters all get essentially free quicken spell (just use SoDs/blast spells/blast spells with a kicker that is only one round anyway), free persisted spells, longer lasting buffs, etc.

EDIT: I know it's just a theory, but honestly, if metamagic is free, there is not going to be a drawback that makes it worth it, at least not when dealing with the action economy based metamagics. Even empower and maximize can't be balanced simply by making them take longer to cast, because a full round action is essentially meaningless, and it's a matter of math otherwise; if maximize takes your swift, you use empower+quicken for slightly more damage.

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

i like the concept. . . it's very cool and very workable, just having trouble thinking of ways to make it work for other metamagic feats. . .

my first thought for instantaneous spells was. . . well what if rather than changing duration. all spell variables are cut in half. . . this would limit abuse and make the spels still usefull but not so useful that you make an uberbuild around them.

for example. . . quickened firebal does only half the d6 and effects half the area.

Similar things could be tailored to the other metamagic feats. many of which could simply be casting time changes maybe add stuf in for more powerful metamagic. . . to reflect more complex casting. . . it works mechanicaly and for flavor.

Extend: Casting time is doubled for spell durations in rounds, trippled for spell durations in minutes, Quadruppled for hours, and multiplied by 5 for days.

Empower: Save dc's are lowered by 1 for each 2 levels of the spell being empowered rounded down. (an empowered 9th level spell has the save dc's lowered by 5)

Heighten: For each level by which you raise the spell the casting time increases by 1 round, (Can not heighten beyond 9th)

[Milskidasith]

i like the concept. . . it's very cool and very workable, just having trouble thinking of ways to make it work for other metamagic feats. . .

my first thought for instantaneous spells was. . . well what if rather than changing duration. all spell variables are cut in half. . . this would limit abuse and make the spels still usefull but not so useful that you make an uberbuild around them.

for example. . . quickened firebal does only half the d6 and effects half the area.

Similar things could be tailored to the other metamagic feats. many of which could simply be casting time changes maybe add stuf in for more powerful metamagic. . . to reflect more complex casting. . . it works mechanicaly and for flavor.

Extend: Casting time is doubled for spell durations in rounds, trippled for spell durations in minutes, Quadruppled for hours, and multiplied by 5 for days.

Empower: Save dc's are lowered by 1 for each 2 levels of the spell being empowered rounded down. (an empowered 9th level spell has the save dc's lowered by 4)

Heighten: For each level by which you raise the spell the casting time increases by 1 round, (Can not heighten beyond 9th)

Quickened is still a free power boost and doesn't affect save or dies at all, extend, seeing as it's all about buffs anyway, doesn't matter, empowered is free if the spell doesn't need a save (ranged touch attack spells? Enervation/Energy Drain?) Heighten is worthless with your system, but that's just as bad, since nobody would ever take the feat.

This simply isn't going to work out that well... metamagic is powerful enough without being free, and the only penalties that are ever really going to matter are spell slot usage (current system) or action economy, and, when dealing with quicken, extend, and persisted spells, action economy can't really be done (quickened spells will be quickened, extended and persisted spells will last long enough longer casting doesn't matter), and with all other metamagic, a casting time of more than maybe 1 round would make it worthless anyway, and otherwise it's essentially free.

In short, yes, costing spell levels tends to make metamagic either very useful or generally useless, but in this situation, it's either broken or totally useless, which seems to be the opposite of the design intent.

[Math_Mage]

If you're going to balance metamagic with increased casting times, you need to go the whole hog. Nothing shorter than 1-round casting time--I'd say 3 but I don't have enough experience at high levels to make it stick. Quicken can't be used on instantaneous-duration spells, and has the 1-round duration drawback you mentioned.

[Milskidasith]

If you're going to balance metamagic with increased casting times, you need to go the whole hog. Nothing shorter than 1-round casting time--I'd say 3 but I don't have enough experience at high levels to make it stick. Quicken can't be used on instantaneous-duration spells, and has the 1-round duration drawback you mentioned.

Yeah, three round casting time makes everything worthless, as I've said. This system changes metamagic from "very powerful or useless in most situations" to "Broken or worthless," besides the changes to still and silent spell, which I support since honestly, those feats are mostly fluff anyway and don't need to nerf your casting as well.

[Draz74]

This system changes metamagic from "very powerful or useless in most situations" to "Broken or worthless," besides the changes to still and silent spell, which I support since honestly, those feats are mostly fluff anyway and don't need to nerf your casting as well.

Your overwhelming skepticism totally ignores the OP's example of the Swift (Haste, Invisibility, Fly) spells. According to your logic, everyone would always use those instead of the normal Haste/Invis/Fly spells, just because they're a "free" effect in the action economy. But they don't.

The OP did say this new version of Quicken would only work with non-instantaneous spells. Some of the responses in this thread seem to have missed that part ...

I'm sure there are spells that are still broken under this idea for Quicken, but instead of dismissing the idea whole hat, could we get some constructive criticism instead? Like, pointing out specific examples of when this Quicken Spell feat would be broken, so it can be fixed?

Likewise with the others. I offered a couple examples of spells that I think would still be too strong to Persist with a one-hour casting time; we'll need to figure out a better way to nerf Persistent Spell. But you rave about how broken Extend Spell is if it's "free"; I have yet to see any convincing example of how this would be broken. ("Free" is the wrong word for anything that requires taking a Feat, anyway.) Which buffs become game-breaking when Extended (even if the increased casting time is, indeed, insignificant)?

[ShadowsGrnEyes]

irregardless of how effective my suggestions were (i did just think them off off the top of my head) I really like the idea of using something other than increased spell slots. . . for the most part I always hated that system.

I think that with a little creativity something could be figured out that would work well. Maybe use of multiple spell slots(rather than higher level spell slots). . . or temp damage to your casting stat. . .

[jiriku]

I could see a Quicken Spell feat that allowed me to cast a spell as a swift action but reduced its duration to 1 round. That would actually serve a very useful purpose: it would make Quicken Spell playable from level 1, whereas right now it's a terribly difficult feat to use effectively before about level 11.

This brings up an issue, though. Being able to toss around a quickened grease at level 1 or a quickened web at level 2 gives the wizard two actions per round at a level where melee characters are generally still making only one attack unless highly optimized. It would be more appropriate if the feat were broken into a chain and/or given strict prerequisites, as with the TWF series, or restricted to characters able to cast 3rd level spells without early entry tricks, so that casters get their swift spell around the time that melee characters get their second attack.

[Xallace]

I like Quicken reducing the duration, but I don't think casting times should be the drawback for all metamagic. I liked the idea of Spellcraft for Shape Spell, though. That's a nice idea, Draz.

Maybe Empower could be straight-up ability burn; You're over-charging a spell, it takes a lot out of you. Maximize could require multiple spell slots. Maybe Trans-Dimensional Spell applies a malignant Blink spell to you for a couple rounds.

Searing Spell and Piercing Cold might deal damage to you (it's too hot/cold for even you to handle) while Widen Spell might reduce the spell's damage.

I don't think Energy Substitution or the other +0 feats would need anything.

[Lysander]

An hour casting time isn't a big enough drawback for a free persisted spell. Imagine if you're expecting a huge battle in a few hours. Or if you're camped outside a dungeon and you can choose when to enter. You could persist several buffs with basically no penalty to yourself.

Maybe something like adding an hour to the spell duration if you add an hour to the casting could work though.

[Kurald Galain]

I used to have a system where you could power up your spells by draining your own blood (with the side effect that NPCs who saw this tended to jump to the conclusion that you were an evil necromancer). Assuming this cost isn't trivially recovered through infinite healing, that can be a useful drawback.

[Draz74]

An hour casting time isn't a big enough drawback for a free persisted spell that you had to spend a Feat to access. Imagine if you're expecting a huge battle in a few hours. Or if you're camped outside a dungeon and you can choose when to enter. You could persist several buffs with basically no penalty to yourself.

Fixed that for you.

You're still correct, it's not enough of a drawback. But it's hardly "free."

[Reluctance]

Your overwhelming skepticism totally ignores the OP's example of the Swift (Haste, Invisibility, Fly) spells. According to your logic, everyone would always use those instead of the normal Haste/Invis/Fly spells, just because they're a "free" effect in the action economy. But they don't.

You're elaborating the specific case (these specific self-buffs work when you trade off duration for casting time) to the general (all spells will work when you make that tradeoff). Which leads to the heart of the problem; what would work for one category of spells would have no impact on another. So to begin to make this system work, you'd need to separate these spells into categories that don't already have convenient keywords. Long-term buffs are not the same as utility spells, are not the same as direct damage/SoD, etc. Doable in a home game, hellacious overhead if you assume any level of op-fu.

So yes. Quickening a buff or battlefield control spell at the cost of dropping its duration to one round might be balanced. For direct damage, it might work if you halve the damage dealt. But saying that drawback X would balance all uses of metamagic Y completely ignores all the different tools that magic has at its disposal to screw with you.

[Ernir]

Difficult to pull this off without breaking everything to hell and back. Drawbacks can be very easy to circumvent, no matter how egregious the designer thinks they are. Ask any Tainted Scholar.

The biggest problem under a scheme like this would be to prevent level-inappropriate uses of metamagic. High spell slot adjustments on metamagics aren't just a way to limit a spellcaster's uses per day of their spells, they also serve as a "this is a high level trick" sticker. Cheeselessly Quickening a spell is a level 10+ trick, and I'd say it really really needs to stay that way.

Anyway. An idea: CL penalties to metamagic'ed spells?

[DragoonWraith]

I was thinking of just having Caster Level or Spellcraft prerequisites for the feats, personally, to avoid that issue.

Anyway, I'm still kind of liking Quicken Spell as I had it. Again, can anyone mention a specific spell for which this would be imbalanced? I know it doesn't work for instantaneous spells, which is problematic, and I'm not sure how to deal with that, but other than that it seems likely to be OK.

Persist is extremely difficult to balance. What if it took 8 hours - do it while someone else is crafting? Lord knows it'd be hard to use - probably not worth the feat for all the times you get to use it - but it might be a viable alternative to spending your time crafting, if you wanted?