[3.5] Meteor Swarm

[Chrizzt]

Generally Meteor Swarm is said to be a very weak Spell for a 9th Level Spell Slot, and I agree. There are far better and more powerful spells available, both if you want to deal damage, to hinder foes and so on.

However, I just noticed that the radius seems quite large (in my opinion. I am not quite familiar with blasting spells, having always preferred more subtle spells), as it is 40 feet radius. With 4 Meteors, you can cover quite a large area (without laying everything to waste in a mile radius, as with apocalypse from the sky).

What if you change the damage from fire to something that critters usually do not have resistance for, for example Sonic?

Is Meteor Swarm considered to be weak because it only deals direct damage (and because direct damage is usually considered weak for wizards), or is it also bad for a 9th level blasting spell? Sphere of Annihilation (? Or destruction? the disintegration thingy) seems stronger for a blasting spell, and is of a "better school" also.

What about using it in a game that is just midly optimized... or low optimized?

[Kobold-Bard]

1. It's direct damage. Slay living is lower level and far more efficient.
2. Fire damage is easily resisted by just about everything at this level.
3. Several classes have Improved Evasion and the Ring of Evasion is easily affordable by these levels, so a fair few enemies are just going to dodge it anyway.

However I absolutely adore Meteor Swarm because it makes a statement, and that statement is "I'm going to blow you the **** up!! MUAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!" which is by far my favourite type of mage to play. It make not be efficient, but dammit I can blow up your village with one finger so I don't care.

[KillianHawkeye]

It's a great spell for a higher level villain (as in higher level than the guys getting blasted). Not so great for PCs facing level-appropriate threats, although it's probably one of the best ways to take out an army of lesser foes.

[Eldan]

I think it can be very fun if modded with a few metamagics. You mentioned changing energy type, that's a good start. I for one, also like Explosive Spell (perhaps my favourite metamagic ever, together with invisible spell). Because it's not an explosion if it isn't actually explosive (did that make sense?).

[faceroll]

1. It's direct damage. Slay living is lower level and far more efficient.

It has a save and many, many things can get blanket immunity to it that you cannot breach.

2. Fire damage is easily resisted by just about everything at this level.

Searing Spell. That's why orbs of fire are so popular (that, and their daze effect).

3. Several classes have Improved Evasion and the Ring of Evasion is easily affordable by these levels, so a fair few enemies are just going to dodge it anyway.

Not if you hit them with a ranged touch attack.

The biggest problem is not being able to stack as much metamagic on it as you could an orb of fire, which lowers it's upper damage. However, given the 40ft radius spread, it could be alright if you settled for 500 damage instead of 2000 and had a lot of monsters in the radius.

[Myth]

I have brief experience ith playing an Elemental Savant (Fire) + Archmage blaster Wizard. (le GASP! -2 caster levels yadda yadda) It was fun, especially when combined with rods of Metamagic Empower, Mastery of Shaping and that FR lvl 1 feat for fire spells.. Do remember that the actual projectiles deal physical damage and can crit, so designate one target with low AC and it's likely to take 50% more damage than the AOE.

[Closak]

Meteor Swarm variation.

First the spell covers the entire battlefield with meteorites, dealing large amounts of damage.
Then the meteors explode, dealing even more damage.
This goes on for roughly three rounds straight.
And while the spell is in progress the caster is utterly invincible to all harm and can just sit back and watch the meteors smash the targets.
However, the caster, while invulnerable, can also not attack while the spell is in progress, just stand (Or float) there and watch the carnage.

Yes, that's the version of Meteor Swarm that Sephiroth likes using on you in Kingdom Hearts.

I say that's...a bit of an upgrade from the normal version...

[KillianHawkeye]

Meteor Swarm variation.

First the spell covers the entire battlefield with meteorites, dealing large amounts of damage.
Then the meteors explode, dealing even more damage.
This goes on for roughly three rounds straight.
And while the spell is in progress the caster is utterly invincible to all harm and can just sit back and watch the meteors smash the targets.
However, the caster, while invulnerable, can also not attack while the spell is in progress, just stand (Or float) there and watch the carnage.

Yes, that's the version of Meteor Swarm that Sephiroth likes using on you in Kingdom Hearts.

I say that's...a bit of an upgrade from the normal version...

Uhh...

All I have to say is FF != D&D.

[Morph Bark]

Uhh...

All I have to say is FF != D&D.

You mean FF = DnD, but DnD =/= FF. A cow is an animal, but an animal is not always a cow. FF is just a load of DnD campaigns.

[KillianHawkeye]

You mean FF = DnD, but DnD =/= FF. A cow is an animal, but an animal is not always a cow. FF is just a load of DnD campaigns.

Um, no?

While the original FF might have been more or less a D&D 2E rip-off, current FF and current D&D have diverged significantly. You can't just say humans = chimpanzees, because they're not the same. They merely share a common ancestor.

I mean, when was the last time you saw Elves and Dwarves in a FF game? I'm thinking 1994 for Dwarves and only in the original FF for Elves.

[AslanCross]

1. It's direct damage. Slay living is lower level and far more efficient.
2. Fire damage is easily resisted by just about everything at this level.
3. Several classes have Improved Evasion and the Ring of Evasion is easily affordable by these levels, so a fair few enemies are just going to dodge it anyway.

However I absolutely adore Meteor Swarm because it makes a statement, and that statement is "I'm going to blow you the **** up!! MUAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!" which is by far my favourite type of mage to play. It make not be efficient, but dammit I can blow up your village with one finger so I don't care.

Everything said here. However, there is a neat little prestige class in Five Nations called Silver Pyromancer, which at its 4th level (it's only 5 levels long) gives one the option to turn fire damage into sacred damage.

I also agree that it's great for villains.

[Runestar]

Another gripe I have with meteor swarm is that energy resistance applies 4 times. Though if you have mastery of elements and an intimate knowledge of a creature's resistances/vulnerabilities, I suppose this limitation could be mitigated or even made irrelevant.

[Morph Bark]

Um, no?

While the original FF might have been more or less a D&D 2E rip-off, current FF and current D&D have diverged significantly. You can't just say humans = chimpanzees, because they're not the same. They merely share a common ancestor.

I mean, when was the last time you saw Elves and Dwarves in a FF game? I'm thinking 1994 for Dwarves and only in the original FF for Elves.

Note that I am not saying humans = chimpanzees. What I'm saying is moreso humans = animal, chimpanzee = animal, but human =/= chimpanzee.

Biological math blah.

Also, Elvaan are basically elves. FFXI. Still ongoing.

Perhaps a large part of current FF resembles current [non-campaign-specific] DnD little, I'd take it very much like as it were a DnD campaign setting on its own - or rather a series of them that are similar to one another. Eberron also broke away from DnD as it was to get a unique world. The FF monsters that cannot be created in DnD by taking existing DnD monsters or templating existing DnD monsters are simply campaign-specific monsters.

I'll give you that FFs VII and VIII are far more "modern" than anything in DnD though, as well as maybe FFX and FFXII (but those I'd deem more similar to Eberron rather than a DnD/d20 mix).

Another gripe I have with meteor swarm is that energy resistance applies 4 times. Though if you have mastery of elements and an intimate knowledge of a creature's resistances/vulnerabilities, I suppose this limitation could be mitigated or even made irrelevant.

Yeah, one might as well rule you could merge several of the meteors together to create a bigger one with increased range and stacking the damage together.

[Eldariel]

The biggest issue with Meteor Swarm is that compared to other Level 9 spells, it just lacks the punch. As said, it is a decent spell for quickly disposing of an army if you absolutely have to get your own hands dirty tho. Generally a Wizard should just be Binding or Summoning something for that purpose on those levels tho; generally gives you more mileage for your spell slots.

And Cloudkill is nice. Tho Druid's Control Winds still takes the cake as far as wiping out cities or armies goes; Tornadoes can be nasty especially when they're just where you want 'em. Control Weather is a nice replica, but much weaker due to 10 min casting time.

[Roderick_BR]

Meteor Swarm variation.

First the spell covers the entire battlefield with meteorites, dealing large amounts of damage.
Then the meteors explode, dealing even more damage.
This goes on for roughly three rounds straight.
And while the spell is in progress the caster is utterly invincible to all harm and can just sit back and watch the meteors smash the targets.
However, the caster, while invulnerable, can also not attack while the spell is in progress, just stand (Or float) there and watch the carnage.

Yes, that's the version of Meteor Swarm that Sephiroth likes using on you in Kingdom Hearts.

I say that's...a bit of an upgrade from the normal version...

On the other hand, it takes a bit to cast, and you can kick him in the face.

Although extra damage over time would make Meteor Swarm a bit sweeter, though it's main purpose it cleaning up mooks from the battlefield (in AD&D, it was far more useful).

[Starscream]

Now I really want a D&D version of FFVI. It's probably somewhere on the internet, I just need to find it.

[KillianHawkeye]

Note that I am not saying humans = chimpanzees. What I'm saying is moreso humans = animal, chimpanzee = animal, but human =/= chimpanzee.

I understand what you're saying. I'm just disagreeing with you.

Also, Elvaan are basically elves. FFXI. Still ongoing.

Bah, I don't play MMOs. Okay then, so 2 of the games have had Elves.

Perhaps a large part of current FF resembles current [non-campaign-specific] DnD little, I'd take it very much like as it were a DnD campaign setting on its own - or rather a series of them that are similar to one another. Eberron also broke away from DnD as it was to get a unique world. The FF monsters that cannot be created in DnD by taking existing DnD monsters or templating existing DnD monsters are simply campaign-specific monsters.

I'll give you that FFs VII and VIII are far more "modern" than anything in DnD though, as well as maybe FFX and FFXII (but those I'd deem more similar to Eberron rather than a DnD/d20 mix).

Well you can say that about any fantasy game, story, movie, or TV show. That doesn't mean that Whatever = D&D.

Anyway, I'm not disputing that FF and D&D are similar. They are. I even noted that FF started off as a D&D rip-off. I just think the differences are big enough that you can't just say FF = D&D. Especially when what we're actually talking about is Kingdom Hearts and not straight-up Final Fantasy, which is even less like D&D thanks to the huge influence of Disney.


EDIT:

Now I really want a D&D version of FFVI. It's probably somewhere on the internet, I just need to find it.

I'm pretty sure I've seen one before somewhere.

[Prodan]

Also, Elvaan are basically elves. FFXI. Still ongoing.

You don't say?

[Closak]

His version of meteor swarm is basically.

In the first game.

1) Short range teleport straight into the middle of the battlefield and summon meteors that crashes down on you.

2) The meteors start spinning around the battlefield, hitting you over and over, meanwhile Sephiroth is invulnerable and all attacks are harmlessly deflected.

3) The meteors explode, then he throws another meteor at you, this one made out of pure energy, kaboom.

4) Now you can attack him again.

In the second game.

Short range teleport into the sky, then while levitating just out of reach start bombarding you with countless meteorites (That are thankfully fairly easy to dodge if you know what you are doing and have the double jump skill)
And as usual, during this time you can't attack him.

The biggest danger however is that flippin' Sin Heartless Angel move, the only way to defend against it is to interrupt the casting process, and you only have a few seconds, which is very bad if he teleported to the opposite end of the battlefield before he starts casting.

Imagine if the battlefield was a lot bigger, it would be impossible to get to him in time, and then you lose all your MP and all but one of your HP right then and there.
I lost count of how many times i ran out of Elixirs and got killed because of that attack.

In D&D terms that's basically one round of uninterrupted casting let's you destroy every last one of the target's spell slots and puts their HP at 1 so the next hit will kill them.
Combined with the teleportation...oww.

Something disturbing i also noticed while playing, i tried casting spells at him to interrupt him, but it didn't work, Firaga/Blizzaga/Thundaga/Magnega did no damage to him and failed to interrupt
And then i died.
Seems only physical attacks are actually any good for ruining his concentration.
That, or i got screwed over by a bug of some sort.

Really, what the heck is that move? Some kind of Divine Salient Ability or something?
Wouldn't surprise me, all things considered.

[Lysander]

The other thing that makes Meteor Swarm useful is that you can fire each sphere in a separate direction. Not only is it good for blanketing one large area, it's also good for making four simultaneous attacks against opponents in areas up to about 2000ft apart from each other.

It's also multipurpose, and gives its caster a lot of flexibility. Fighting one high level target? Send all four spheres at them. Fighting an army of mooks or destroying a city? Spread out the spheres for maximum area. Being able to choose how to use it on the fly is especially handy for a caster who must prepare spells in advance.

It's also fast. Sure you could destroy an army or a city many other ways, but this does it instantaneously.

And it's also a good way of chipping at foes with good defenses. Since they have to make four separate saves the odds are they're going to fail at least one of them. There are other spells that could kill them in one round, but if they make their save then you've essentially wasted your turn. Here at least you damage them a little.

[Prodan]

A city?

Must be a very small city.

[KillianHawkeye]

Maybe I should just amend my previous statement to say that Video Games != D&D (unless it's a D&D Video Game).

[Lysander]

A city?

Must be a very small city.

Setting fire to four 80 foot diameter areas is a pretty good way to start a massive inferno. Especially in medieval tech cities with no professional fire department or building codes.

[Prodan]

Setting fire to four 80 foot diameter areas is a pretty good way to start a massive inferno. Especially in medieval tech cities with no professional fire department or building codes.

"It's also fast. Sure you could destroy an army or a city many other ways, but this does it instantaneously."

[Snake-Aes]

A single flaming arrow is enough to set a city aflame. Sieges often started by removing the ceilings from the houses near the walls because of how flammable they are.

[Lysander]

"It's also fast. Sure you could destroy an army or a city many other ways, but this does it instantaneously."

Ok, to clarify, this lets you start a massive inferno instantaneously. And setting alight four eight foot wide circles is going to give your fire a huge head start. Think of the Great Chicago Fire which started (according to legend) with a single lantern in a barn. This would dwarf that in a moment.

[Prodan]

So it lets you do what you've been able to do since level 3.

[Snake-Aes]

Using a 9th level spell to accomplish what 4 Tindertwigs could do.

TIndertwigs? Try a torch. But that's only if all you want is to burst it into flames.

[Prodan]

It just does not strike me as impressive for a 9th level spell, considering Fireball has been in the game since level 5, and Flaming Sphere since level 3.

[Ernir]

It's a rather stylish way for your Unseen Seer to deliver Sneak Attacks.