[3.5] Undead and aging

[Choco]

Are there official rules anywhere for how intelligent undead advance in age categories? Do they keep their original races age progression including the negatives to physical stats, do only mental boosts get applied, do they have no benefits or drawbacks anymore, or do they have their own chart somewhere? Or rather, is this all up to the DM?

Specific situation is that a campaign I am currently in actually spans a long period of time, and my character became a lich before reaching middle age and is about to cross that line.

[Daelen]

As far as I understand it, undead don't age. Period. Once you've died and went on to undeath... aging ceases to be an issue. Now, there may be some ruling that refutes this but this is the common sense answer.

[Lysander]

I think you keep whatever age adjustments to stats you had upon dying. After that no further changes.

[No Idea]

While I don't think the undead would change physically, presumably they would age intellectually if they were active as opposed to spending centuries locked away in an underground tomb. Not sure how one would go about statting that due to balance issues. It would suck to have to fight a 10000 year old lich king with a 300 int. Not that it wouldn't suck to fight a lich king anyhow. Especially if said lich king decided to take levels of cleric to go along with his improved wis.

Probably best to just leave them unchanged but in my opinion if an intelligent creature is interacting with the world around him, he's sure to learn a few life lessons along the way or read a book or two. It seems like that is what the age progression of stats is designed to accommodate.

[FelixG]

What you want is the Evolved Undead template, page 99 of the Libris Mortis, basically every 100 years the undead gets a cumulative 1% (1 at 100 2 at 200 ect) to acquire the template.

Thats the only undead "aging" that i am aware of.

[MightyTim]

I could see this differing depending on the type of undead.
A Zombie could conceivably have a shelf life, deteriorating until they're a skeleton, physically.
Creatures like vampires and litches, probably not.
Logically, really the only creature undead creature that I can think of that would stay completely the same would be a mummy. The embalming process keeps their body from deteriorating, but they pretty much sleep the entire time so there's nothing to worry about intellectual gain.

Sounds like a houserule solution would be in order to me. You could say that something about undergoing the process of un-death affects one's ability to learn things as effectively, or something of that nature.

[Choco]

Well I don't think a 10,000 year old lich would have 300 int unless it created an epic spell to do that, cause with few exceptions (dragons) every race has just 3 age categories and once you hit the last one thats where you are even if you somehow live a billion years.

So with becoming some undead capable of "living" forever, you would probably not take any physical penalties any more, but the only reason for you not to gain mental boosts at the same rate as your base race would be because the process of becoming an undead, even if you keep all your memories and personality intact, somehow impacted your mental growth. I can see that being the case, but only well after most races would become venerable.

[Beelzebub1111]

I could see this differing depending on the type of undead.
A Zombie could conceivably have a shelf life, deteriorating until they're a skeleton, physically.
Creatures like vampires and litches, probably not.
Logically, really the only creature undead creature that I can think of that would stay completely the same would be a mummy. The embalming process keeps their body from deteriorating, but they pretty much sleep the entire time so there's nothing to worry about intellectual gain.

Sounds like a houserule solution would be in order to me. You could say that something about undergoing the process of un-death affects one's ability to learn things as effectively, or something of that nature.

I don't think that Vampires would deteriorate, so long as they sustain themselves on blood, and even then any deterioration would most likely be reversible.

[MightyTim]

I don't think that Vampires would deteriorate, so long as they sustain themselves on blood, and even then any deterioration would most likely be reversible.

That's what I'd meant. Guess it didn't come out that way.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I could see this differing depending on the type of undead.
A Zombie could conceivably have a shelf life, deteriorating until they're a skeleton, physically.
Creatures like vampires and litches, probably not.
Logically, really the only creature undead creature that I can think of that would stay completely the same would be a mummy. The embalming process keeps their body from deteriorating, but they pretty much sleep the entire time so there's nothing to worry about intellectual gain.

Sounds like a houserule solution would be in order to me. You could say that something about undergoing the process of un-death affects one's ability to learn things as effectively, or something of that nature.

Logically that which is not alive shouldn't be walking around. The dead rot and the undead by definition are not dead. Decomposition is when a dead organism breaks down into simpler forms of matter. The primary cause of decomposition are bugs and bacteria. The embalming process protects a corpse from insects and bacteria postponing decay.

Considering negative energies hostility to life its probably about as effective as embalming fluid, keeping bugs and bacteria from feeding off the corpse.

As to undead aging, well losing advancing mental scores could be considered the price of undeath. You gave up aging and all that went with it. In older editions it was explained that undead were fixed and unchanging. They couldn't even advance further in level.

[No Idea]

But in this situation I think its safe to say that the OP hopes to advance his character's level at some point. This leads me to believe that intelligent undead are capable of learning. Now, if it was ruled that the undead character does not advance in age like a mortal, that would lock in his stats where they are while still giving him the ability to learn and increase in experience. I think that would also affect gods in that case as well. I do think a case could be made that certain types of undead should have adjusted age categories like a living character although it would span an longer amount of time and be open ended. That would allow the player to look forward to a limited advance in mental abilities even if its unlikely that the character would be played for that long of a period.

[MightyTim]

It's really your call as a DM how you want to handle it. The consensus seems to be that a litch should retain the stats as of when it underwent un-death. Personally, as PC characters are generally accepted to be a cut above the average character, I'd be inclined to let the rules be bent and grant some bonuses that would usually be bending the rules.

Or if you don't want to decide, you could even turn it into a skill challenge of sorts, having him try to overcome the limitations that becoming a litch imposed on him. Put a high DC on it but if he fails at first, give him a chance to do it again every other level or something.

Just a thought.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Well obviously in 3rd edition undead advance in level as it was kind of silly for a wizard to become a Lich and limit his advancement. I was simply stating how it used to be.

Giving an undead age categories is probably fine, I do it myself for vampires but the age category is based on time spent as undead. So the timescale would be beyond what a PC would experience.

[fryplink]

I've always seen learning (or knowledge acquisition) to be reflected in skills, while INT as processing power. The attributes have always seem to me to be "genetics + upbringing/lifestyle". I'm born with a genetic predisposition to be strong and my lifestyle of killing things with a sharpened piece of metal has allowed it to flourish. I was born a genius, and spending all my free time trying to logically de-code the laws of physic and (the laws of) magic has sharpened my mind.


Obviously its not a perfect way of thinking, but it solves your undead problem. Undead bodies don't change. Therefore the scores don't change, but they still can aquire more knowledge, allowing them to gain class levels (this doesn't explain why they would still be able to boost an attribute every 4 or so levels)

Thats just been my take on the matter, its by no means perfect

[The Tygre]

Not official per se, but the third edition Ravenloft campaign setting has rules for advancing undead through age categories, as well as hags and demons if memory serves right. Failing that, I always liked DiceFreaks' stuff.

[Andion Isurand]

Yeah, the ancient undead and outsider lords seem somewhat unimpressive if you take into account how long they've been around combined with the inheret power of their very being.

I give +1 to the dice freaks for making outsider lords truly menacing.

[Gensh]

You know, I really hate to bring up the fact that I actually read/watched it, but it might be that the generic dnd-verse follows the same rule as in Inuyasha: the undead aren't truly either dead or immortal, just frozen in time. That's why they can't heal, nor can they fully process new experiences. Any sort of emotions or ideas that they held at the time of death, they will continue to hold regardless of any new developments.

[Chrizzt]

Somewhere in Dragon Magazine, the Sage advised to not let Undead Age, because it would be stupid (my formulation) that a skeleton who stands around in a dungeon for some time would get more wisdom.

Concerning intelligent Undead, I guess you could use the Elan aging table from expanded psionic handbook, page 16. Elan cannot die of old age, but the table might be a good option if you want to give undead mental advancement and check when they get to next category.

[miibtp]

i suppose it just depends on what the dm thinks. they would be fair in ruling either way, in reality.