(3.5) Point-based custom weapons-PEACH

[Ilmryn]

One thing that hasn't seen so much homebrew is base weapons. I came up with a custom system for creating weapons while thinking of what weapon my character for a campaign was going to use.

Basically, each weapon has a point value, defined by damage die, crit range and multiplier, size, and special properties(such as tripping ability, reach or disarm bonus).

A simple weapon is generated with 6 points or less, a martial with 7, and an exotic with 8 points. The point values for each weapon catergory are based on the properties of the dagger, short sword, long sword, bastard sword, and greatsword. This system is for melee weapons only, ranged weapons are more complicated since they have many more factors.

Point values are as follows:
Damage: 1-0pts, 1d4-1pt, 1d6-2pts, 1d8/2d4-3pts, 1d10-4pts, 1d12/2d6/3d4-5pts, 2d8-6pts, 2d10/3d6/1d20-7pts.
Crit range: 20-0 pts, 19-20-1pt, 18-20-2pts, etc.
Crit multiplier: no crit-0pts, x2-1pt, x3-2pts, etc.
Size: Two-handed-0pts, One-handed-2pts, light-3pts.
A special property such as tripping or reach is worth 1 pt. Double weapons are worth 2 pts extra and they must be two-handed.

Most weapons generated with this system should be exotic weapons, since most if not all weapons genereated with this system will be unsusual. Any weapon should have a good explanation of why it works the way it works; a weapon that is just a 19-20/x3 sword should not be permitted.

Any thoughts?

[Ilmryn]

Sample Weapons:

Bladestaff(exotic)-A bladestaff consists of a curved blade on the end of a long, slightly curved wooden shaft. It is difficult to fight with, but when used properly it allows the wielder to strike at range with the force of an axe and the precision of a sword. It is a reach weapon.
Damage: 2d4
Crit: 19-20/x3
Cost:100 gp
Weight:10 lbs
Type: Slashing
Size: Two-handed

Contraption Blade(exotic)-A contraption blade resembles a short and bulky spear with an abnormally large spearpoint. It is a rather ineffective weapon, but when it penetrates deep into an opponent's flesh(a critical hit), the wielder can activate a spring-powered mechanism that causes spikes and blades to extend from the point with devastating effect. The result is rather gory, giving the wielder a +2 bonus to intimidade against any witness to the hit. After scoring a crit, the spikes need to be reatracted to use the weapon again efficently, this takes a full-round action. Fighting with the spikes extracted is difficult, the wielder takes a -4 on attack rolls and can't get a critical hit until the spikes are retracted.
Damage: 1d4
Crit: 20/x6
Cost: 300gp
Weight: 20 lbs
Type: Piercing
Size: Two-handed

Devastation Mace(exotic)-This weapon, a favorite among savage giants, is a mace so large that it takes special training and a minimum strength of 15 to use it at all. It is a clumsy, but incredibly powerful weapon.
Damage: 1d20
Crit: 20/x2
Cost: 100 gp
Weight: 80 lbs
Type: Bludgeoning
Size: Two-handed

[Volthawk]

First thing that I see is that 2-handed weapons are cheapest. Generally, 2-handed weapons are the best weapons available (extra power attack, extra str damage, and probably some other things), so I personally don't think they should be cheapest.

[DaTedinator]

First thing that I see is that 2-handed weapons are cheapest. Generally, 2-handed weapons are the best weapons available (extra power attack, extra str damage, and probably some other things), so I personally don't think they should be cheapest.

Presumably his system is based on the existing weapon system, which also has two-handed weapons being the "cheapest" (and thus most powerful). A greatsword deals more damage than a longsword, which deals more damage than a shortsword. Are you of the opinion that should be reversed?

As for the actual system, I think the point values are off. Simple should be 5, Martial 6, and Exotic 7. As it is, recreated PHB weapons are all one category easier.

Also, there's no way here to determine range for ranged weapons.

[Ilmryn]

Presumably his system is based on the existing weapon system, which also has two-handed weapons being the "cheapest" (and thus most powerful). A greatsword deals more damage than a longsword, which deals more damage than a shortsword. Are you of the opinion that should be reversed?

As for the actual system, I think the point values are off. Simple should be 5, Martial 6, and Exotic 7. As it is, recreated PHB weapons are all one category easier.

Also, there's no way here to determine range for ranged weapons.

Point values:
Simple: Dagger: Light(3), 19-20/x2crit(2), d4 damage(1)=6pts
Martial: Longsword: One-hand(2), 19-20/x2 crit(2), d8 damage(3)=7pts
Exotic: B. Sword: One-hand(2), 19-20/x2 crit(2), d10 damage(4)=8pts
That fits my point values perfectly.

Correct. This is for melee weapons.

[Knaight]

First thing that I see is that 2-handed weapons are cheapest. Generally, 2-handed weapons are the best weapons available (extra power attack, extra str damage, and probably some other things), so I personally don't think they should be cheapest.

They are the cheapest because extra damage and such are assumed. Basically, to afford the one handed or light designation, points have to come from somewhere.

[imp_fireball]

You forgot damage types.

What if I had a weapon that dealt all mundane damage types - Piercing and Bludgeoning and Slashing?

And what about special qualities of weapons? Ie. Reach, or +2 to trip/disarm/etc.

[Ilmryn]

Reach, trip capability, +2 disarm, etc., are all special properties; any special property in line with these is worth 1 point, as I said in the first post.

As for damage types, well, I didn't think of that. I would consider two types 1point, and all three 2 points unless you are creating a double weapon with distinct heads. It might be hard to explain why a wepon is capable of doing all 3 types of damage simultaneously, however.

[imp_fireball]

It might be hard to explain why a wepon is capable of doing all 3 types of damage simultaneously, however.

An axe head could probably do bludgeoning and slashing, but one with serated edges could also pierce as well. It'd look like some kind of crescent saw.

Difficult to wield, so exotic most likely.

But what about weapons that deal X or Y or X and Y or X and Z, etc.?

Also, non-lethal weapons such as whips? Maybe they have an additional point available (costs 1 to make them lethal).

And reach beyond +5ft. could cost an additional point as well. Whips for example have 15ft. reach for medium creatures. A collossal creature with a whip probably has about 90ft. reach.

[Aran Banks]

17-20/x4, 1d6 slashing. Exotic. Make that a keen weapon for
13-20/x4, 1d6 slashing. Exotic... damage output is 210% over normal.

Not too overpowered.

The big qualms I have against this are:
a) There's no concete way to determine damage types, and a whip's special ability is way better than longspears's reach donut.

b) This doesn't support bigger weapon sizes. What's bigger than a 2-handed weapon and how many points does it cost? If you've got a player with Monkey Grip, does their "three-handed" (one step higher than two-handed) weapon give them -1 PB? Now, while there isn't even a way to make bigger weapons... if you tried...

It wouldn't work. A bigger weapon, if you make it cost points (or cost nothing, like the two-hander), will always have a smaller damage output. Which makes no sense... a Cloud Giant's hammer needs to deal huge amounts of damage.

Of course, if you made it negative points, then big weapons could be made for ridiculous criticals... which would lead to Cloud Giants running around with 2-20/x3 critical keen rapiers.

The system is neh. If you're going to make a point-buy system, damage needs to scale with weapon size. I'd honestly just use the Book of Gear's weapon sizing charts. It accomplishes what you're doing with all the weapons you really need without using point-buy.

[DaTedinator]

Point values:
Simple: Dagger: Light(3), 19-20/x2crit(2), d4 damage(1)=6pts
Martial: Longsword: One-hand(2), 19-20/x2 crit(2), d8 damage(3)=7pts
Exotic: B. Sword: One-hand(2), 19-20/x2 crit(2), d10 damage(4)=8pts
That fits my point values perfectly.

That does, indeed! But the original post lists the crit values as...

Point values are as follows:
...
Crit range: 20-0 pts, 19-20-1pt, 18-20-2pts, etc.
Crit multiplier: no crit-0pts, x2-1pt, x3-2pts, etc.

[Ilmryn]

b) This doesn't support bigger weapon sizes. What's bigger than a 2-handed weapon and how many points does it cost? If you've got a player with Monkey Grip, does their "three-handed" (one step higher than two-handed) weapon give them -1 PB? Now, while there isn't even a way to make bigger weapons... if you tried...

It wouldn't work. A bigger weapon, if you make it cost points (or cost nothing, like the two-hander), will always have a smaller damage output. Which makes no sense... a Cloud Giant's hammer needs to deal huge amounts of damage.

Of course, if you made it negative points, then big weapons could be made for ridiculous criticals... which would lead to Cloud Giants running around with 2-20/x3 critical keen rapiers.

These sizes are relative to the user, my system generates medium weapons, the damage scales for different sizes. A two-handed weapon for a cloud giant would be created by these rules, then the damage scales up according to size. I also said that you would have to have a reasonable explanation for how your weapon works, so yes, you can have a 17-20/x4 weapon-if you can explain it to your DM's satisfaction.

@DaTedinator: Yes. Point cost for 19-20 range: 1 point. Point cost for x2 crit: 1 point. Point cost for 19-20/x2 is therefore 1+1=2 points.

[DaTedinator]

Oh, weird. Yeah, totally my bad. I missed that.

[Eloel]

Point values:
Simple: Dagger: Light(3), 19-20/x2crit(2), d4 damage(1)=6pts
Martial: Longsword: One-hand(2), 19-20/x2 crit(2), d8 damage(3)=7pts
Exotic: B. Sword: One-hand(2), 19-20/x2 crit(2), d10 damage(4)=8pts
That fits my point values perfectly.

Simple: Quarterstaff: Two-hand(0), 20/x2 crit (1), 1d6 damage (2), double (2) = 5 pts
Martial: Falchion : Two-hand(0), 18-20/x2 crit(3), 2d4 damage (3) = 6 pts
Exotic: Kama : Light (3), 20/x2 crit (1), 1d6 damage (2) = 6 pts

This system looks great indeed.

[Aran Banks]

you said it scales to size...

What system does it use? How is this supported? If you don't include a system, my storm giant's two-handed maul will be as strong as my kobold's two-handed maul, and that's a bad idea.

Also, using Rule 0 to solve problems never ends up well.

-------------

And while we're talking about scaling... I know that a one-handed weapon for a medium character is a two-handed weapon for a small character, or a light weapon for a large character.

So a halfling rogue can make a light weapon for a medium-sized person (2 points) and then wield it one-handed... or he could make a two-handed weapon for a tiny-sized person and then wield it one-handed.

With one option, he has [# of Points]-2 to make his weapon with. With another, he has [# of Points].


So if you're making weapons scale in size (which you have to), then get rid of point costs for light v. one-handed v. two-handed weapons. The concept should be: Make a one-handed weapon for any size character. If you're one size bigger than the size designated for the weapon, it's a light weapon. If you're one size smaller, it's a two-hander.

[Milskidasith]

Another thing I've noticed are that crits are incredibly cheap under this system; a X3 15-20 1 damage weapon is completely viable, and with some moderate crit optimizing and decent strength, you can get *really* nutty with that automatically hitting almost all hits.

[flabort]

simple weapon (6 pts availible)
1 damage (0 pts)
x2 crit (1 pt)
2 handed (0 pts)
leaves 5 points for crit range, meaning 15-20. (or x1 crit for 14-20 but no "purpose", alternatively make it exotic for 13-20, or both for 12-20)

add keen afterwards, and class features or feats reliant on getting a crit, to do special effects, that are normally considered ballanced by the (low) odds of getting a crit, and... add a good BaB. or other boosts to attack chance.

hmmm... Fluff. that's a hard one to come up with fluff for. 1 damage always is.

Flurry Stave (2-handed exotic weapon) - An extremely heavy rod with large bundles of stiff, springy metal wires on either end, which are thin enough to slice through flesh, but lack penetration power, and often bounce back when swung. This makes it a difficult weapon to use.
1 slashing damage
13-20/x2 crit. range
300 gp
30 lbs

Keen Speed Flurry stave (2-handed exotic +4 weapon) - As with a Flurry Stave, it is a large rod with large bundles of stiff, springy metal wires on either end. However, the wires are much thinner and suppler, and will find thier mark much easier, and the rod to which they have been mounted has been made much lighter.
1 slashing damage
5-20/x2 crit. range (13-20 + keen, does not stack with effects such as keen edge)
one extra attack at full BaB per full attack, does not stack with simmilar effects, such as haste.
4300 gp
10 lbs

two attacks, 5-20 crit range, and two handed? sounds like a munchkin's dream come true. Now, we just add something like a feat or class that does something really nice on critting, and boom. profit.

[Siosilvar]

Keen Speed Flurry stave (2-handed exotic +4 weapon) - As with a Flurry Stave, it is a large rod with large bundles of stiff, springy metal wires on either end. However, the wires are much thinner and suppler, and will find thier mark much easier, and the rod to which they have been mounted has been made much lighter.
1 slashing damage
5-20/x2 crit. range (13-20 + keen, does not stack with effects such as keen edge)
one extra attack at full BaB per full attack, does not stack with simmilar effects, such as haste.
4300 gp
10 lbs

two attacks, 5-20 crit range, and two handed? sounds like a munchkin's dream come true. Now, we just add something like a feat or class that does something really nice on critting, and boom. profit.

YOU CANNOT ADD SPECIAL ABILITIES WITHOUT AT LEAST A +1 BONUS.

Keen is +1, Speed is +3. A +1 Keen Speed weapon is a +5 equivalent weapon that costs at least 50300gp.

[imp_fireball]

Also, using Rule 0 to solve problems never ends up well.

Sure it does. What would you suggest otherwise? Players are always right?

If the GM sucks, get a new GM.

Make a one-handed weapon for any size character.

you mean one-handed for medium size character. Medium is the standard.

[Milskidasith]

Sure it does. What would you suggest otherwise? Players are always right?

If the GM sucks, get a new GM.

The problem is that using rule zero to balance homebrew leaves a lot of unbalanced homebrew and a lot of work for the DM.

[imp_fireball]

The problem is that using rule zero to balance homebrew leaves a lot of unbalanced homebrew and a lot of work for the DM.

Rule zero can also mean that the GM can do whatever he needs to do to make the players happy. Which is what he does for his campaign anyway.

To me, making a campaign from the bottom up is a lot more work then working out some balance issues. It's comparing flaming white hot nick nacks to tiny little nick nacks.

[Mulletmanalive]

I can't really see any problems beyond a) the fact that this is obviously a "run it past your DM" thing, which a lot of people don't like and b) you could fix the whole 5+ crit thing by just slapping some caps on there. Perhaps multipliers at x5 and range at 16-20, say...

Also, you'd be best of defining what a quality actually us, because Reach is a limited advantage a lot of the time, there are two forms of Tripping weapons, those that can be used to trip and those that grant a bonus as well, are those discreet abilities? etc

[Milskidasith]

Rule zero can also mean that the GM can do whatever he needs to do to make the players happy. Which is what he does for his campaign anyway.

To me, making a campaign from the bottom up is a lot more work then working out some balance issues. It's comparing flaming white hot nick nacks to tiny little nick nacks.

The point is that, when using homebrew, anything that has to be run through the DM's rule zero filter in order to be workable adds to his work, unless he's substituting homebrew for core classes, in which case it's still preferable to use homebrew without flaws.

Basically, why would a DM use this system, which is only possibly useful to abuse crit modifiers (and even 16-20 and x5 are nuts, especially when you can combine either one with a decent crit multiplier or an expanded range, respectively, and then get some crit range increasing stuff up in there), when he can just use the systems basic weapons? They aren't amazing, but they don't require any work just to get slightly differing weapons.

[Aran Banks]

Milskidasith voices my sentiments.

And you can take your logic and expand upon it to get...

"Well, if the DM can Rule 0 everything to make the game nice, why not just play free-form?"

D&D is made so that you don't need to play free-form and Rule 0 things. If you're making a point-buy weapon system, it should exist so that everything created within it works. I mean, that's why Bo9S didn't say "here's a list of every manuever ever. Ask your DM if you can use a certain maneuver every time you gain a level." It's also why they didn't say "OK, wizards get to make up all their spells ever. Rule 0 everything since your DM will know what's best, and if doesn't then he sucks and you should go get a new DM."

So... I disagree with you.

[Ilmryn]

I see the abuse of my system. Oh, well, it was an interesting idea, but turns out it wasn't that great after all...

However, what do you think of the sample weapons? The main reason behind this is to get some combinations the basic weapons lack.(The main thing with this is 19-20/x3, since x4 and 18-20/x2 seem equivalent, shouldn't 19-20/x3 be as well?)

[jiriku]

Reverse-engineered from the PHB, eh? I did something similar a couple years ago, let me dig it up for you. There might be one or two ideas you could use.

Here it is. It assumes that weapons receive a 9-point buy.

{table=head]TRAINING|COST
Exotic|0
Martial|2
Simple|3[/table]

{table=head]DAMAGE DIE|COST
1|0
d4|1
d6|2
d8/2d4|3
d10|4
d12/2d6|5[/table]

{table=head]EASE OF USE|COST
Two-handed|0
One-handed|2
Light|3[/table]

{table=head]DAMAGE TYPE|COST
Piercing|0
Slashing|1
Bludgeoning|1[/table]

{table=head]CRIT MULTIPLIER|COST
20/x2|0
20/x3|1
19-20/x2|1
18-20/x2|2
20/x4|2
19-20/x3|3
18-20/x3|5
18-20/x4|8[/table]

{table=head]SPECIAL|COST
Thrown 10 ft|1
Thrown 20 ft|2
+2 to skill|1
+4 to skill|2
reach|1
set vs charge|1
monk weapon|2
double weapon|2*
other specials|1 or 2[/table]

*build each half separately as a one-handed weapon and buy the double weapon benefit for both halves.

I cost exotic weapons a little more favorably than your system because the conservatively built PHB exotic weapons are generally poorly regarded and considered traps, while the more generously built exotic weapons like the spiked chain and many splatbook weapons are considered worthwhile and useful.

Addressing Milski's concern, any weapon creation system would need a complex set of rules to absolutely prevent all possible abuse. Creating those rules and proofing them for loopholes would be extremely time-consuming. A reasonable middle ground between slipshod homebrew and a project that never ends is to build something that holds together under regular use, but assumes the active guidance of a watchful DM who will prevent abusive combinations.

[Eloel]

(The main thing with this is 19-20/x3, since x4 and 18-20/x2 seem equivalent, shouldn't 19-20/x3 be as well?)

Wrong.

20/x4 has 23 'damages' at 20 rolls. 19x1 + 1x4 = 23
18-20/x2 has 23 'damages' at 20 rolls. 17x1 + 3x2 = 23
19-20/x3 has 24 'damages' at 20 rolls. 18x1 + 2x3 = 24

Slightly higher.

[Aran Banks]

I never even saw the sample weapons... now that I look at them, the bladestaff is an awesome idea, and the contraption blade would be a little cooler with a larger crit ratio.

The devastation mace is far too unpredictable for my tastes. I'd prefer 3d6 damage.

@jiriku: There's still the problem of size scaling.

[jiriku]

Where's the problem? The system assumes a weapon sized appropriately for a Medium-sized wielder. Use the system provided to construct a medium-sized weapon. If a larger or smaller creature wants a copy of the weapon, its damage die changes as appropriate to its new size category. Odd-sized versions of a weapon have their own conversion rules in the PHB and DMG already, and don't need to be built into the weapon design system Imryn has built here.

[137beth]

@jiriku: Overall I think that is a great system, but I think that the double weapon needs a bit of clarity:
Orc double weapon:
d8 damage (3 points)
1-handed (2 points)
Crit: x3 (1 point)
Slashing (1 point)
Double weapon: 9 points

You said in your post that you "build each half separately as a one-handed weapon and buy the double weapon benefit for both halves., when you only spend the 2 points once.

The other problem with your system comes when a player crafts a weapon for themselves to use, and decide to get a damage die that is either 2d4 or d8. 2d4 does an average of 5 damage, while a d8 does 4.5 damage for the same point cost. If a player custom-designs their weapon, they will invariably choose 2d4. For damage dice, it is hard to determine whether it would "make sense" for something to deal d8 rather than 2d4, and so this is not much of a limiter for the fighter looking to get a better weapon. Of course, the difference between 2d4 and d8 is not worth a full point in your system, which makes finding a solution less obvious.


EDIT: the Sap does not fit this system at all. Using this system, the Sap costs a total of only 8 points. On top of that, it deals non-lethal damage, which your system does not account for. Of course, not all of the weapons in the players handbook will use the same number of points, regardless of how good the system is, because some of them are clearly worse than others. Overall though, your (jiriku) system is good, and much less abusable than ilmryn's system.