Clerics bound and gagged

[Edhelras]

Hi, I'm not very familiar with playing clerics, and have some questions:

I'm playing the game Cormyr: the tearing of the weave, and the party has managed to capture the two clerics Fembrys (Clr5 of Shar) and Shan Thar (Clr3 of Cyric) plus the sorceror Kevrin (Sor1). The villains are being kept in a locked room, securely bound (with high Use Rope checks) and gagged, but not under continuous surveillance while the party rests and prepares for interrogating the prisoners and pressing further into the temple.

What I wonder is: Will the two clerics, who have expended their spells, be able to gain new spells in this condition - bound and gagged?
I'm uncertain whether this state is too rigorous for them to be able to properly meditate for new spells.
Moreover, does praying for new spells require the priest to be able to actually speak out loud?

Both have had their holy symbols removed - are those absolutely necessary to be able to pray for new spells? And - are only the spells denoted with "DF" - divine focus - dependant on the holy symbol being available for the priest to cast his spells?

Finally, are there any cleric spells that can be cast while gagged and bound? (the clerics don't have metamagic feast like still spell)

The essence of my questions is: Is it safe to leave a captured cleric (at these levels, 3 and 5) in jail if gagged and bound but unobserved - or would that be foolhardy because the priest could use his jail time to receive spells that would allow him to either break his bonds or for instance control his prison guards?

[Snake-Aes]

Hmm, that's sort of thrown in the limbo. They need "peace to pray and meditate yadda yadda". If the dm thinks they can pray to their gods in peace while bound and gagged, then they can prepare spells.


The surefire way to keep them from preparing spells is having an ethereal version of Elan having a chat with the clerics.

[Spiryt]

Llolth clerics then, I would guess...

[Drogorn]

Well, you say that guards are present, so why not instruct the guards to slap the clerics around a bit every half hour or so? That would interrupt any possibility of them regaining spells.

[true_shinken]

I'd say they can regain spells.
In book 2 of Year of Rogue Dragons, a cleric of Pelor is constantly harassed by an ogre during sunrise to prevent him from regaining spells. He manages to get a few spells just fine - just enough to aid his halfling fellow in the task of recuing him from aforementioned ogre.
That's the only time I ever saw this come up.

[Edhelras]

No - the point was that guards were not present, sorry if I misstated? What I wonder is if it's all right to tight the bastards tightly and then get some well-deserved rest?

The party is pretty weary after a long midnight fight. They all need to rest, and besides they need to keep watch at two entrances at least.

[true_shinken]

No - the point was that guards were not present, sorry if I misstated? What I wonder is if it's all right to tight the bastards tightly and then get some well-deserved rest?

The party is pretty weary after a long midnight fight. They all need to rest, and besides they need to keep watch at two entrances at least.

I'd say they need Knowledge (religion) checks to figure out at which time those clerics regain spells. Dunno about other settings, but this is FR - each deity in FR bestows spells at an specific time of the day.

[jiriku]

I'd say the clerics are secured and can be safely left alone. You want to encourage prisoner-taking, as it can lead to interrogation, exposition, plot hooks, dramatic roleplaying, and all sorts of good things.

If captive spellcasters can routinely acquire spells, escape, and wreak all sorts of mayhem even when tightly bound with their holy symbols confiscated, you're simply encouraging players to take no prisoners and kill everyone they fight, which is boring. Allowing them to safely keep prisoners as long as they take reasonable precautions (which they have) is a good idea.

[Edhelras]

I'd say they can regain spells.
In book 2 of Year of Rogue Dragons, a cleric of Pelor is constantly harassed by an ogre during sunrise to prevent him from regaining spells. He manages to get a few spells just fine - just enough to aid his halfling fellow in the task of recuing him from aforementioned ogre.
That's the only time I ever saw this come up.

If I was Shar or Cyric, surely I would be lenient towards my cleric, being kept in a tight spot by the agents of good (a paladin among them, no less), and give him the spells he might need to exact revenge.

If no rules exist on this topic: These guys are bound pretty tightly, by the excellent rogue. I was wondering if a CON check (with a DC of 15, for instance) would be required to see if the bound clerics were tackling their condition well enough to meditate. Or of course a Concentration check (with DC 15 + lvl of highest spell they might pray for) to be able to meditate properly. Would this be about right?

But anyway I don't know how much use it would be to the priests as long as they were being kept helpless at the moment their gags were taken off for interrrogation, and they don't have the Quickened feat.

[Drogorn]

If this is a temporary thing, you could just knock them out. Can't regain spells while unconscious. Also, the requirement is that they have a relatively peaceful environment, so sticking them somewhere they'd have water dripping on them constantly would prevent them from gaining spells as well. Just make sure they can't wiggle away from it. Using three ropes tied to objects in a room will prevent motion in any direction.

[Edhelras]

I'd say they need Knowledge (religion) checks to figure out at which time those clerics regain spells. Dunno about other settings, but this is FR - each deity in FR bestows spells at an specific time of the day.

The party cleric is devoted to Deneir and is pretty well versed in Knowl religion, yes.

[Edhelras]

If this is a temporary thing, you could just knock them out. Can't regain spells while unconscious. Also, the requirement is that they have a relatively peaceful environment, so sticking them somewhere they'd have water dripping on them constantly would prevent them from gaining spells as well. Just make sure they can't wiggle away from it. Using three ropes tied to objects in a room will prevent motion in any direction.

The most dangerous of them was indeed knocked out during the fight, but he was stabilized by the cleric (for the purpose of later interrogation) and then he regained consciousness during the night.

[Edhelras]

I'd say the clerics are secured and can be safely left alone. You want to encourage prisoner-taking, as it can lead to interrogation, exposition, plot hooks, dramatic roleplaying, and all sorts of good things.

If captive spellcasters can routinely acquire spells, escape, and wreak all sorts of mayhem even when tightly bound with their holy symbols confiscated, you're simply encouraging players to take no prisoners and kill everyone they fight, which is boring. Allowing them to safely keep prisoners as long as they take reasonable precautions (which they have) is a good idea.

Very good point, of course, and if noparticular rules exist on this it still does make sense. I was thinking it might create tension if the party had to be nervous about their captives. Also, I was thinking what would I do if I played a cleric and was captured.

[Mnemnosyne]

At best, I'd probably rule that they need a concentration check of DC 15 + Use Rope check result + spell level in order to meditate.

I partly agree on the point of not discouraging the taking of prisoners, though, so I would likely rule that with reasonable precautions (which seem to have been taken) they should be just fine. I might have the clerics regain a couple low level spells to use in an attempt to escape, to kind of drive home the point 'you really need to watch certain prisoners, not just leave them tied up' but unless they're meant to be particularly powerful or important NPC's, I wouldn't intentionally have them do anything too effective.

[Edhelras]

Thanks everybody for very swift and nice response!

Trying to hit the balance here between making the heroes feel unsecure, and as you said encouraging their prisoner-taking and information-gathering. Many good contributions here.

[jiriku]

Very good point, of course, and if noparticular rules exist on this it still does make sense. I was thinking it might create tension if the party had to be nervous about their captives. Also, I was thinking what would I do if I played a cleric and was captured.

Watch Mission Impossible III, the scene where the team has just captured Owen Davian and is trying to interrogate him while in their plane. Davian is stone-cold terrifying, even while bound and totally helpless. He never flinches, even when Ethan flips out and dangles him out the plane. Good inspiration.

[Crasical]

This thread title sounds like a fetish magazine for Drow or something. The Condition Summary states that being bound like that is considered equivalent of being paralyzed, sleeping, or unconcious, but the detail for being a cleric just says that they must spend an hour 'in quiet contemplation or supplication'.

If they're securely tied but left alone without someone repeatedly poking them during the specific hour of the day that they must pray, I'd say they could regain spells, but would be unable to cast them until they where untied.

[ericgrau]

Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells.

It seems like they can regain their spells. But they can't cast them unless they have silent spell, as their spells all have a verbal component and most have a somatic component. About half require a holy symbol. I agree stick poking, loud noises, etc. would prevent them from regaining spells due to "quiet contemplation or supplication".

Don't forget the free +10 you got on your use rope check. This'll be important b/c the ones tied up can keep re-rolling every minute or take a 20 on their check after 20 minutes.

[Kaeso]

I think they could, but they wouldn't be able to cast 90% of their spells, since most of them have either one or more of the following:
-somatic components
-verbal components.
-material components.

[Aroka]

Only spells with a Divine Focus component are dependent on having a holy symbol.

[Boci]

-verbal components.

So the OP will need to be careful when they ungag them for the interogation.

[Edhelras]

The rogue tied them up and she rolled obscenely high Use Rope rolls, pluss the 10+. There is no way any of those low-DEX clerics could ever escape, not until the ropes themselves start to rot...

I wait with excitement, though, for those gags to be removed...

Part of my uncertainty was due to my lack of complete knowledge about the several divine spells added through different source books. Given that a cleric can access any spell offered by his deity, there is no way knowing what they might come up with...

[Reynard]

I can't find the site, but I remember that there was a complete database of all of the 3.5 spells, and filters for find spells with specific components.

IIRC, there are a few, a very slim few, Divine spells that have no Verbal, Somatic, or Divine Focus requirements.

[Rannil]

I can't find the site, but I remember that there was a complete database of all of the 3.5 spells, and filters for find spells with specific components.

IIRC, there are a few, a very slim few, Divine spells that have no Verbal, Somatic, or Divine Focus requirements.

You mean this site?

It finds two spells that doesn't have a verbal and somatic component, only one of those can be cast at the levels of the clerics mentioned.

Spiders legs.

[Reynard]

Yes, that's it. *bookmarks*

Sadly, my search fu is weak today. What does that spell do?

[Rannil]

Yes, that's it. *bookmarks*

Sadly, my search fu is weak today. What does that spell do?

You grow long spider legs that have a speed of 30 ft. and move on vertical surfaces.

At least, that's what the site says, I'm to lazy to search op the spell in it's book.

[Reynard]

Well, that's an escape route for the cleric then. These new legs won't be bound, after all.

Though it does seem like a spell only a Drow cleric would ever actually use.

[Shademan]

Am I the only one who opened this thread, hoping for the missadventures of a bondage prone cleric?
or some fun build like that?

[KillianHawkeye]

Am I the only one who opened this thread, hoping for the missadventures of a bondage prone cleric?
or some fun build like that?

You're not.

[Lysander]

What level are the clerics? Word of Recall is a 6th level spell that only has a verbal component. The spell teleports the caster to a safe place, it's the first thing they would try to cast when the gag is taken off, if they have 6th level spells.