Alignment-free D&D?

[WarKitty]

Does anyone have or know of a good system for removing alignment from the D&D game? I've been wanting to try it after several long discussions over whether a certain behavior is apropriate to an alignment - the alignment system is starting to just feel too restrictive. (CG assassin anyone? that was fun)

[Siosilvar]

Best system: Just do it.

Alignment-specific effects are either removed from the game or made alignment non-specific. Detect Evil detects people working against you. Smite Evil becomes the Crusader's smite ability. Holy Word hurts things that aren't your friend.

[hamishspence]

Replace all Protection from X spells with one- Protection from Anyone.
Replace Smite X with Smite Anyone.
Remove Detect spells entirely.
Remove all alignment subtypes.
Remove spells like Word of Chaos.

Fairly simple.

The problem with allowing Detect spell to detect any "enemy" (even secret ones) or Word spells to damage only enemies (even secret enemies) is that it spoils mystery plots, where there is a bad guy but he's very good at covering it up.

[DeltaEmil]

That should actually be very simple.

You could just eliminate all the spells that deal with alignment and say that they now only work against specific outsiders from such planes, remove alignment. For paladins, instead of smite (alignment), you could change it to a smite that works against demonic, undead and aberrations.

Or you could play 4th edition D&D, which doesn't give alignment any important effects per the rules. If you don't want to play 4th edition, just take a look at it at least to see how and where you can avoid alignment effects, and work it into older editions.

[Evard]

Yeah anytime you see an alignment or reference to it... Shock yourself ... After a while you will condition yourself to not see the alignment or reference to it :)

[WarKitty]

Yeah anytime you see an alignment or reference to it... Shock yourself ... After a while you will condition yourself to not see the alignment or reference to it :)

Would it be better to shock my players every time they argue about alignment? (As a DM I generally let them put whatever alignment they want on their sheet unless they blatantly violate it and can't come up with an explanation.)

[potatocubed]

Nice and simple:

1. Remove alignments.

2. For abilities that interact with alignment, either:

2a. Remove the aligned part and leave the rest - protection from evil becomes protection and just gives +2 AC, protection from mind-influencing effects, etc., for example.

or

2b. Remove the ability completely. (Recommended for holy word, detect evil, etc.)

And you're done.

[WarKitty]

Is there any major game-play effect that I'm missing? Other than that on paladins? I'm thinking of leaving in the [Good]/[Evil]/[Law]/[Chaos] tags, but only for the appropriate outsiders.

[Siosilvar]

Is there any major game-play effect that I'm missing? Other than that on paladins? I'm thinking of leaving in the [Good]/[Evil]/[Law]/[Chaos] tags, but only for the appropriate outsiders.

No, not really. Incarnates, Soulborn, and Crusaders will get a little more variety, but not much else will change.

[Tengu_temp]

For paladins, make the smite work on everything and detect evil now detects undead, demons and similar creatures. It's a buff, but this class is pretty weak on its own anyway.

[FMArthur]

Experienced roleplay-heavy groups don't need alignments at all. But for more inexperienced roleplayers concrete, simplified systems like alignments and traits and such can aid them in roleplaying when they don't know how they should be acting.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

That should actually be very simple.

You could just eliminate all the spells that deal with alignment and say that they now only work against specific outsiders from such planes, remove alignment. For paladins, instead of smite (alignment), you could change it to a smite that works against demonic, undead and aberrations.

Or you could play 4th edition D&D, which doesn't give alignment any important effects per the rules. If you don't want to play 4th edition, just take a look at it at least to see how and where you can avoid alignment effects, and work it into older editions.

I think that 4th Edition actually did this, with not only their Rebuke/Turn Undead, but also the Devilbane and Demonbane (am I misremembering these feats?) feats, which changed your Rebuke/Turn undead and other undead-affecting powers to affect also other types.

[mjames]

w00t, lawful druids! Finally I can obey the Laws of the Jungle while crushing cities...

[hamishspence]

There was nothing in 3.5 barring you from playing Lawful Neutral druids.

[mjames]

There was nothing in 3.5 barring you from playing Lawful Neutral druids.

Sorry... I meant... LG or LE. I've always been a fan of either helping or crushing the weak. Lawful Neutral seems a little weak and flippant to me. "I respect and follow the law, but only to the point it serves me"? or something to that effect...

EDIT: Or the whole "I follow the laws but keep my non-biased opinion. (otherwise called the "Judge".) Not a big fan of that either.

[Yora]

That'd be Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. Following the rules when it's convenient, but not having respect for the order of society.

Experienced roleplay-heavy groups don't need alignments at all. But for more inexperienced roleplayers concrete, simplified systems like alignments and traits and such can aid them in roleplaying when they don't know how they should be acting.

I like alignment as a super short summary for NPCs. When I read the description of an NPC, knowing if he's CN or NE makes it a lot easier to get into his mindset. But for PCs, it doesn't have any meaning once spells with alignment descriptors are removed.

[Amazon warrior]

One of the ways I've seen alignment-free D&D done is that only creatures of extremes show up as good/evil/chaotic/lawful. Thus, the average guy in the street doesn't show any alignment but a paladin or a fiend would show up as good or evil, respectively.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

One of the ways I've seen alignment-free D&D done is that only creatures of extremes show up as good/evil/chaotic/lawful. Thus, the average guy in the street doesn't show any alignment but a paladin or a fiend would show up as good or evil, respectively.

I like that. So you have to do something to deserve your alignment. A Good character works hard to keep up that alignment, and an Evil character does heinous things to earn that alignment.

[Kurald Galain]

Does anyone have or know of a good system for removing alignment from the D&D game?

Sure. I've been doing this for over a decade, and it works perfectly fine.

The Protection From spells simply protect against charm, compulsion, and extraplanar creatures. The paladin's Detect and Smite ability functions against undead, demons, and people strongly opposed to the ethos of his deity. Classes with alignment restrictions simply have to roleplay it, and "falling" simply never comes up except maybe rarely for paladins.

Any other alignment effect rarely comes into play anyway and won't be missed.

[Mnemnosyne]

More often these days that's how I start my player characters. I just say 'Neutral' and let the DM decide if he feels my actions have changed my alignment. It also helps that I very rarely play characters with alignment restrictions.

[Curmudgeon]

Is there any major game-play effect that I'm missing?

• Clerics and channeling positive/negative energy
• Alignment domains and domain feats (Law Devotion & c.)
• The whole exalted and vile system
• A lot of aligned spells will need individual attention

[Tetrasodium]

For what it's worth, alignment is more of a grey area in eberron than the black and white normally found in D&D. The church of the silver flame has done some terrible evil's in the past, but tries to be a force for good even though it acknowledges privately that good people can do bad things with the intention of serving the greater good for example. I can't remember which book it was in, but somewhere it mentions something along the lines of 3 in 10 or so random people are probably going to detect as evil with detect evil... not that they are necessarily doing anything wrong, they might just be a bit more selfish and less caring than others or something. You could probably snag the alignment bits from eberron if you want an in between with less potential "erm... it does what?!/how does this work now" type consequences.

[hamishspence]

The 3rd party splatbook Quintessenial Paladin 2 does list "3/10 of humans are evil" as one of its options.

In core, it's harder to find evidence supporting it, aside from "humans tend toward no alignment, not even neutral" in the PHB, and the suggesting that in typical D&D nations, being evil is not a crime, nor proof that the person has committed crimes, in DMG.

[Mike_G]

• Clerics and channeling positive/negative energy
• Alignment domains and domain feats (Law Devotion & c.)
• The whole exalted and vile system
• A lot of aligned spells will need individual attention

You mean, you get to ignore all this too?

I'm gonna say win-win.

To paraphrase Roy, using Alignment is like adventuring with a social disease. Sure, you can do it, but it's not pretty.

And the addition of the Exalted/Vile stuff just rubbed salt on the festering sore that is the Alignment system. It made it more intrusive, more hypocritical, more "shirts vs skins" morality.

Playing without Alignment is easy. A half hour of houserules for the aligned effects will solve all your problems, and you can have campaigns with more nuance than the average Stallone movie without it dissolving into pointless
debate every time something comes up.

[hamishspence]

To paraphrase Roy, using Alignment is like adventuring with a social disease. Sure, you can do it, but it's not pretty.

And the addition of the Exalted/Vile stuff just rubbed salt on the festering sore that is the Alignment system. It made it more intrusive, more hypocritical, more "shirts vs skins" morality.

There's plenty of people who think otherwise- who have no problem using the alignment system, with or without the later books.

It's one of those things where the people who complain about it get the most attention, and you never hear about the people who play the alignment system as normal and have no problems with it.

[Tetrasodium]

The 3rd party splatbook Quintessenial Paladin 2 does list "3/10 of humans are evil" as one of its options.

That might have been what I was remembering, although the eberron stuff still has a lot of alignment blur text. I quickly found this in eberron campaign setting

A cleric’s status within her church is usually more important than her relationship to her deity, who is—at best—a distant patron. Therefore, a cleric’s alignment need not remain within one step of her deity’s alignment.
A cleric can cast spells with any alignment descriptor. Casting an evil spell is an evil act, and a good cleric’s alignment may begin to change if she repeatedly casts such spells, but the deities of Eberron do not prevent their clerics from casting spells opposed to their alignments. This rule supersedes the information in Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells on page 33 of the Player’s Handbook.
A cleric who violates the tenets of her church or deity might risk punishment at the hands of the church (though not necessarily, particularly in regions where the church is very corrupt), but risks no loss of spells or class features and need not atone. This rule supersedes the information under Ex-Clerics on page 33 of the Player’s Handbook.

and

A cleric of the Church of the Silver Flame can fall into heresy or even adopt an evil alignment and still retain all his abilities, but a paladin must rise above the corruption that plagues almost every church and cling to the highest ideals of her faith. In a place such as Sharn, in particular, where the churches are so rife with corruption, paladins arise to bring justice to the people.

There was mmore, but I didn't want to copy the book. This bit below is from Faiths of Eberron

That one pantheon cannot exist without the other is reflected in the worst-kept secret concerning Vassal worship. A blacksmith offers the bulk of his prayers to Onatar and does so openly. More discreetly, he refuses to ignore the Fury, whom he believes will ensure that any weapon emerging from his forge is both inspired in design and efficient in execution.
This is not to say that the blacksmith fears his work will be insufficient without the Fury’s blessing, but by keeping her in his silent prayers, he hopes to forestall misfortune. A blacksmith who accidentally burns himself, or whose forge explodes in a moment of fiery rage, could be said to have displeased or dishonored the Fury in some way.
Indeed, as most are well aware, many Vassals choose to honor deities of both pantheons with regular prayer, regardless of which god sees the bulk of their day-to-day worship. A noble-souled warrior who worships Dol Arrah and despises the Mockery might still see the wisdom in offering the occasional prayer to the outcast brother, if for no other reason than to ward off treachery in combat.

Dark six is pretty much a generic grouping of evil gods that got kicked out of the sovereign host (generic grouping of gods that are now mostly goodish). Fury & Mockery are two gods in dark six.

At the dawn of the Last War, priests of three of the Six—the Fury, the Mockery, and the Shadow—met in secret for the first time. They had maintained little to no contact with one another before the war (even those of the same deity), but now convened with one aim: to increase the power of their gods through the war of fi ve nations. Each priest pledged a congregation to serve this goal as best befit its capabilities. What began as a wartime practice developed into a bold new campaign to advance the hegemony of the Six and their priesthoods.
This movement translated to a two-tiered approach; both tiers, as might be expected, involved deception to a greater or lesser degree. The fi rst step was to insinuate devout members of each priesthood into every corner of the confl ict, from the front lines to the war rooms. The priests found plenty of volunteers among their congregations. Since all of the Five Nations were hungry for new blood, such volunteers integrated with little scrutiny.
Most had only one assignment: spreading fear and worship of their gods. (Reporting the activities of the infiltrated groups would surely have resulted in discovery before long.) Soldiers prayed to the Fury in combat, and those who survived thanked her for heeding their call; assassins and spies called on the Mockery before dangerous missions, and then credited any subsequent success to their faith. Likewise, spellcasters invoked the Shadow to aid them in their time of arcane need. It wasn’t long before people associating with these agents began to follow suit, if for no other reason than “better safe than sorry”—a popular sentiment in desperate times.
The second step involved the priests themselves, who were in the best position to administer the effort from the safety of their homes and temples. They took responsibility for seeing to the needs of the families of war dead, and not just those of their own congregations.
For the first time, temple funds and resources went to assisting those outside the congregation, even to those who worshiped only the Sovereign Host, in the interest of long-term benefit. The priesthoods of the three gods spent a great deal of money during the war, in effect buying the faith—or at least the allegiance—of many new converts. Ironically, this subtle integration earned great success—just like the tradition of the Sovereign Host.
Thanks to these efforts, the names of the Dark Six were on the lips of just about everyone in those grim days, even trusted figures such as ship captains and battalion commanders. This greatly reduced the social stress of letting slip a forbidden name, thereby spreading the one thing the priests desired above all else: acceptance. By the time the war ended, the cabal of priests had managed to make offering prayers to the Fury, the Mockery, and the Shadow a common practice.

The silver flame likewise has some incredibly dark stuff in it's entry despite being a good church. Sovereign host is fairly benign and more of the equivalent of saying you are agnostic. Most of the other gods are fairly minor cults and/or regional things. I didn't want to pull any big sections from the silver flame entry, but this seemed appropriate :)

Not only does the Church prioritize evil, it accepts the notion that sometimes a lesser evil can serve to fight a greater. Sometimes, good people might be forced to commit questionable acts in the battle against darkness, or sometimes even be sacrificed for a yet greater good.
The Silver Flame does not encourage such decisions, nor does the Church always approve extreme measures, but sometimes no other choice exists.

[Yora]

It's one of those things where the people who complain about it get the most attention, and you never hear about the people who play the alignment system as normal and have no problems with it.

Like about every other problem with D&D?

[Shpadoinkle]

Aside from the aforementioned smite thing and some of the Crusader's maneuvers, very little changes.

I'd change the Protection from G/E/L/C and their 10' Radius version spells to work against everything, and make them one level higher. Alternately you could make them one level lower, but work against specific types of creatures (Protection from Humanoids, Protection from Magical Beasts, Protection from Giants, etc.). Or you could do both.

[WarKitty]

• Clerics and channeling positive/negative energy
• Alignment domains and domain feats (Law Devotion & c.)
• The whole exalted and vile system
• A lot of aligned spells will need individual attention

Cleric effects could simply be refluffed as tied to the deity. Or simply all clerics channel positive energy (would be nice for some of my party; they like evil characters but want to retain the party healer ability).

Alignment domains: Law/chaos/good/evil still exist as ideals that a character can devote themselves to.

Exalted and Vile system: never used it anyways.

Aligned spells: how many of them need their alignment? I'd remove the evil tag from necromancy right off the bat, as well as from positive and negative energy spells.

[Greenish]

Dark six is pretty much a generic grouping of evil gods that got kicked out of the sovereign host (generic grouping of gods that are now mostly goodish).

And in the typical "we won't say it, but lawful is actually gooder than chaotic", they made The Traveler (CN) a member of the Dark Six, while Aureon (LN), Balinor (N) and Kol Korran (N) are all part of the Host. For godssakes, the latter of those is the God of Greed!