Is this morally wrong to do as a DM?

[Morithias]

Ok so I'm running a new evil campaign, we're currently at level 2, and my one player gets it in his head that it would be a bright idea to try and find/steal/whatever an amulet of the planes, a.k.a 120000 gp item. However there are some special circumstances I have noted in the DMG.

First off, it's stated that no player should be allowed to spend more than half their starting wealth on a magic item. Also note that on page 127 of the DMG that the NPC wealth for a level 20 character is only 220,000.

In this campaign I have given them endless warning that in this universe there exists a group of "Super Exalted" heroes that are more powerful than any average paladin.

So is it wrong for me to punish them for trying to overstep what their characters can do with an epic encounter with one of the super exalted?

[TooManyBadgers]

So is it wrong for me to punish them for trying to overstep what their characters can do with an epic encounter with one of the super exalted?

I don't see why it should be, but keep in mind that it would be more interesting to 'punish' them in a sense that progresses the campaign than it would be to have the Epic Warriors Of Doom smash them into a reddish goo.

[Morithias]

What about a build from the BOED that has the power to atone them in 4 rounds? Would that be considered right?

[Saph]

An Amulet of the Planes costs 120,000 gp. In general this means that the only characters in the game world who will have one are those who can afford it out of their WBL, ie characters of level 21 or higher. (Maybe level 18-20 if they've got an unusually good income source or have a thing for niche items like the Amulet.)

And epic-level characters do not get to epic levels by being easy to rob or kill. If the PCs don't understand this, demonstrate it to them.

So there's no realistic way the PCs would be able to get their hands on such an item in the first place. If they do, Super Exalted characters coming to punish them is the last thing they should be worried about. What they should be worried about is that they're now the most profitable target on the continent plane of existence for every thief, adventurer, mercenary, and sellsword with two eyes and a weapon. Every Neutral to Evil 5th-15th level adventuring party out there is going to hunt them down and rob them, just because the payoff is so crazy good.

[Enixon]

I'm not sure what the gp limit has to do with anything as it sounds like the player wants to ind/steal/whatever the amulet in game rather than buy it during character creation.

Anyways it seems likely that something as powerful as a amulet of the planes would be under very heavy guard anyway.

I would make sure to give the players some way of getting an idea as to what they'd be up against fist (in game of course) if they try anyway..... well it's their funeral.

No different than trying to steal a dragon's horde at level 2 IMHO.


OR

another idea would be let them get the amulet (not for free of course, maybe the "Super Exalted" is off somewhere doing super exalted things and only a few guards are left.) then you can have yourself a plane hopping adventure as the party runs from their epic adversity how would naturally pop up at the worst times, if you've played the Resident Evil series think Nemesis.
Just an idea

[Morithias]

An Amulet of the Planes costs 120,000 gp. In general this means that the only characters in the game world who will have one are those who can afford it out of their WBL, ie characters of level 21 or higher. (Maybe level 18-20 if they've got an unusually good income source or have a thing for niche items like the Amulet.)

And epic-level characters do not get to epic levels by being easy to rob or kill. If the PCs don't understand this, demonstrate it to them.

So there's no realistic way the PCs would be able to get their hands on such an item in the first place. If they do, Super Exalted characters coming to punish them is the last thing they should be worried about. What they should be worried about is that they're now the most profitable target on the continent for every thief, adventurer, mercenary, and sellsword with two eyes and a weapon. Every Neutral to Evil 5th-15th adventuring party out there is going to hunt them down and rob them, just because the payoff is so crazy good.

That is brutally clever. I like it! Thanks a lot! :D

[Vitruviansquid]

I don't know about "morally wrong." I can't see many situations in which acting as a DM could be considered "morally" wrong, as it is, after all, just a game.

In any case, I believe it's a bad idea for you to punish your players when they do something like this. First off, the mentality that you have to "punish" your players is wrong-headed in the first place, as everyone's there to have a good time, and as DM, it's your job to make sure they do. As well, remember that as a DM, you might see things like this as player stupidity or audacity, but the players themselves see it as heroism (or in this case, anti-heroism) in trying to overcome a difficult obstacle. There's no reason to punish the players when they're doing something they think is carrying the campaign forward.

As to alternatives, you could either use the amulet of the planes as a hook to carry them along a plotline that might end without them getting it or you could also just flat-out deny their ability to pursue the goal, saying something like they don't find any leads as to how to get the amulet.

[RMS Oceanic]

In my very first campaign, my brother contracted Porcinanthropy (He became a wereboar). We soon found the bonuses he gained rather upset the party balance. A harrowing encounter against a hydra wasn't nearly as bad with his damage reduction. Our DM felt the best way to resolve this was to send a high level lycanthrophobic party to stomp him into the dirt. None of us felt this was the best way to resolve the issue.

If you want to do something similar, try to avoid the same idea of super powerful police or village of polymorphed silver dragons just designed to keep the party in line, and naturally you should warn them about it if you do. And if they do transgress, have your railroads steer them towards an interesting plot hook you'd been saving for such an occasion, rather than move into a siding where one or more character will crash into the Goods Train that was waiting for the Flying Kipper to pass. Have the super powerful party capture one or more and take them somewhere, perhaps.

[Drogorn]

Why not let them get said amulet? What it effectively gives them is plane shift at will. That's not game breaking, just powerful. I say let them figure out where to find one, but set up the scenario such that a total party kill is a very likely possibility. Then make them understand that if they miss something in their planning, they will almost certainly die.

[DabblerWizard]

Sometimes, giving low level characters high level items (which are generally expensive and awesome), can be rather fun, and appropriate.

For example, in my last campaign (4e), my (low level) players decided to save the life of an elderly aristocrat, going above and beyond what was necessary, having to deal with a ton of hassle to help this woman.

In the end, the aristocrat ended up surviving, and decided to give the characters her most prized possession: a potion of life (which cost 125,000 gold).

It's fair to say that both the players' and characters' eyes bulged out at this generosity. Subsequent interactions with aristocracy in this city were improved, the players felt special and appreciated for their efforts, and it even became an entertaining minor plot point for them to figure out how they would protect this shiny prize.

Also, immediately resurrecting one character's life isn't quite earth-shattering mechanically, but it can be very meaningful as a roleplay element.

[The Shadowmind]

I believe the only the no more than half on of WBL on a single it is for character creation only, if they want wait and save up money for the item they want they can.

Has the player some how managed to get a hold of an Amulet of the Planes? If not you could pull a Be careful what you wish, and give him the amulet, one made by a npc artificer that always suffers a mishap when using so only they use it, it might take days on constant use to try to get back home, ie. Sliders.

[Jornophelanthas]

While I am by no means an expert on epic level D&D, there is a general principle that I think may be of help to you.

If you don't want (one of) the players to have access to an Amulet of the Planes, or a specific prestige class, or a specific spell at character creation, then just say "No". That the item is described in a rulebook does not mean that you have to use it if a player wants to. The DM is the one who makes the final decision what will be part of the game, and what won't. If a player asks why, you can tell them that in your game world, such an item/prestige class/spell would not make sense, so it doesn't exist there.

Having said that, do make sure to be fair and open to your players, and provide them with as much information about what is in and what is out beforehand. Therefore, if player X wants to advance into prestige class Y, then don't say it doesn't exist at the moment the player wants to take his first level of prestige class Y. Conversely, require from your players that if they want to play any prestige class, they should consult you as early as possible, so that if you disallow the prestige class, they know this up front.

Also, follow your own rules. If you have given them permission to have a certain item/spell, you can't just take it away from them afterwards by flatly ruling they can't have it. Instead, introduce a plot that leads to the player characters losing the item/spell for story reasons.

For magic items on character creation, my suggestion would be to tell your players beforehand that they need your approval on anything they purchase with their starting wealth. Make sure to review all their magical starting equipment (and spells and classes) before the first game session and disallow anything that messes up your setting and/or plot. Once all player characters have been approved by you, you're good to go.

Additionally, as DM you can have full control over any magical items the player characters acquire on their adventures. The random loot tables should serve as a suggestion rather than a rule. This means that if you really don't want item X in your campaign, then make it so.

[FMArthur]

I don't think any epic Paladin or whatever your 'super exalted' are is going to slay some poor 2HD thief for trying to rob them. Obviously they won't be able to get it, and the epic character might take an interest in keeping an eye on the players if they seem to warrant it. An epic warrior of good keeping tabs on your evil character is a sufficiently unpleasant punishment and warning IMO.

[valadil]

Your characters do not know what WBL is. They're perfectly welcome to get ambitious about wanting more money than the system says they should have.

However that amount of wealth should be well guarded. If the item is owned by someone who can afford such a thing, they should be able to invest in mechanisms for holding onto their wealth as well. Furthermore, if such an item were stealable by level 2 characters, why are the PCs the first to try? Why hasn't someone else stolen this item?

Anyway, I say let them try but put up a strong offense against it. Just because the PCs are fighting some guards does not mean you are obliged to make those guards a reasonable fight. The players picked this fight, not you. An item beyond what the players can afford should be guarded by enemies beyond what the players can fight.

[Urpriest]

I don't think any epic Paladin or whatever your 'super exalted' are is going to slay some poor 2HD thief for trying to rob them. Obviously they won't be able to get it, and the epic character might take an interest in keeping an eye on the players if they seem to warrant it. An epic warrior of good keeping tabs on your evil character is a sufficiently unpleasant punishment and warning IMO.

I second this. Further, I think it would be an interesting link. The characters plan, they plot, and in the end they fail because the character is one of the Super Exalted. The Super Exalted, seeing such young people with such inexperience but such potential, spares their lives in a way that the characters will view as condescending, humiliating, weak, etc. Then you have an interesting recurring villain. It also gives the characters a better idea of how the Super Exalted act, and as such is a good way for you to give plot hints.

[Mnemnosyne]

If the players are really set on getting this object, it's simple. Make it a goal. It's not as though Amulets of the Planes are just floating around everywhere, they can't just rob Ye Olde Magic Wal-Mart to get one.

Merely finding out who owns one can be considered a pretty large adventure in itself, as they trace leads, ask merchants and mages about the last time they heard of such an item, etc. Follow that up with 'the only person you can learn of that owns one is clear on the other side of the continent', which requires them to make the journey over there, along with all the hazards and adventures that long-distance low-level travel contains, then by the time they get there the owner has learned that someone has been snooping around and asking about their amulet so they're going to be doubly careful about it - unless they're interested in selling it, in which case they might contact the PC's (who will by now be many levels higher) first with a price or some other payment he wants in exchange...

In addition, presumably such a useful item isn't just going to be sitting in someone's jewelry cabinet. Most likely it's worn regularly by its owner. So obtaining it means stealing it directly off of the neck of a high level NPC, or successfully sneaking into such a person's bedroom while they sleep and stealing it off their nightstand or whatever.

Furthermore, such items are often in the hands of adventurers. So it's in the hands of a 15th level NPC adventuring party, which doesn't stay in a static location, is a large number of high-level individuals, and tends to take precautions against theft or being attacked in the night.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, I'm confused as to why you're even thinking up contingency plans for their success.

I mean, an item so expensive only the epic-level people have it? That means they'll have to rob an epic level guy.

That'd be like trying to steal the helmet from a gestalt Darth Vader//Superman

[Mewtarthio]

That is brutally clever. I like it! Thanks a lot! :D

To really mess with them, they don't recover the amulet of planes. Their mark is way too epic for that. Instead, they manage to recover the decoy amulet of the planes, enchanted to be indistinguishable from the real one (to the point where half of all scrying attempts are redirected to the decoy) except that it doesn't really do anything. Now they have to fend off all the other would-be thieves while futilely insisting that they don't have anything!

(Added bonus: It gives you a reason not to sic really powerful baddies on them if you don't want to. Just say that they were smart enough to see through the trick, experienced enough to have heard of it before, and/or lucky enough to stumble across either the real thing or a different decoy).

[Volos]

Easy no mess solution: The Amulet doesn't exsist in your game or is impossible for the players to get to. Being that it is an amulet of the planes, it should be in the possession of some powerful NPC who is busy plane hopping with it. At such a low level, they would never get near the damn thing.

[Kylarra]

It's an easy enough solution, provided all the other members of the party are on board with it, and it's not just a whim.


Base your campaign around acquiring that amulet.

[Aroka]

So is it wrong for me to punish them for trying to overstep what their characters can do with an epic encounter with one of the super exalted?

Yes, because of your reasons/reasoning.

If the amulet is guarded by a CR 26 dragon, that's fine. If it's guarded by a commoner 1 and you - as you seem to be saying - want to punish your players for trying to steal it, you suck at DMing and should stop.

Also, WBL has nothing to do with this. If you're put an amulet of the planes somewhere, it's fair game to be stolen. If you haven't, it's as easy as "can't find it" or "sure but it's guarded by X".

[devinkowalczyk]

Tpk Tpk Tpk!

[Lysander]

You could also make the amulet the MacGuffin.

The players enter the temple where the amulet is held and discover all the guards have been killed. Entering the inner sanctum they find the powerful guardian of the amulet battling a frightening basically unbeatable demon. The guardian tosses the party the amulet and shouts "Use the amulet! They musn't get it!" The party randomly plane shifts to another dimension, leaving the guardian to die but escaping with the amulet. Begin campaign where they're hunted across the planes by sinister enemies that want the amulet for nefarious purposes. Why would enemies that can plane shift need a magic item that lets you plane shift? What else can the amulet do?