4e combat length fix

[Vitruviansquid]

A lot of my players have been complaining to me that combat in 4e takes way too long, in terms of rounds, especially against elite and solo monsters. I am of the same opinion.

In any case, I wanted to come up with a fix that would change the intra-party balance as little as possible. So what do you guys think of giving each player a re-use of encounter powers at heroic, 2 re-uses at paragon, and 3 at epic?

For instance, a level 5 fighter with the encounter powers Armor Piercing Thrust and Spinning Sweep can use them both, and then choose to re-use one of them.

What corresponding buff should I give to the monsters to make them more lethal without having more hp?

[kyoryu]

I read somewhere (forget where) that the best fix for this is to avoid solo monsters greater than the level of the party.

I cannot endorse this, just passing along info.

[Vitruviansquid]

I'm not sure how anything you said in your post pertains to anything I asked in my post.

[vicente408]

What is the average number of rounds in a "normal" combat for your group?

[Vitruviansquid]

I believe the last one would've been over10 if I hadn't cut things short.

things of note:
1. It was rated as a suitable encounter for a group 1 level higher than the level 11 group I was running the combat for. According to the DMG, this is a "normal" difficulty encounter.

2. Nobody got dropped unconscious. In fact, it was a steamroll in terms of how little the party got hurt.

3. The party was composed of paladin/warlock hybrid, rogue, barbarian, ardent, and a monk. So we're actually running more strikers than most.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Does combat goes long in terms of rounds or RL time? if it is the first I don't think there is a problem, if it is real live times, ask the players to plan their action course during the other characters actions.

Also I like your idea of re using encounter powers, sometimes at will powers are boring or not that useful.

[Vitruviansquid]

Yes, we're fast enough in terms of real life time, but in terms of rounds, we definitely degenerated to spamming At-wills near the end.

[Galdor Miriel]

We half the hit points of monsters and increase their damge by 50 %. The CR seems to be good like that and we have challenging encounters that do not drag on too long. You can make a solo or elite more threatening by giving them an additional action point as well.

We have been doing this for about a year with no real problems. And we get through 4-5 encounters in a 5 hour session.

Good luck!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yes, we're fast enough in terms of real life time, but in terms of rounds, we definitely degenerated to spamming At-wills near the end.

Hmmm if that is the case go for your idea and might need to use that

[valadil]

I read somewhere (forget where) that the best fix for this is to avoid solo monsters greater than the level of the party.

I cannot endorse this, just passing along info.

This is relevant because it limits how many HP you'll have to deal with. Solos get the most and therefore take the longest to whittle away.

I've heard of halving monster HP while doubling damage. Seems like a popular solution. I haven't had problems with combats going too long, so I haven't tried it. (I do double static damage bonuses though, because monsters don't hit hard enough IMO.)

I usually just call the fight over when the PCs are no longer threatened.

Finally, try this. http://slyflourish.com/three-monster...eed-up-combat/ They're powers you can give monsters. The let the enemy spend HP to do something awesome. I'm a big fan of Brutal Shakeoff.

[Kurald Galain]

The standard trick is to halve monster HP and double monster damage.

The other standard trick is to call off combat once it is clear that the enemies are no longer a threat; usually this is after three or four rounds.

[Thomo]

Alternativey, check out the Angry DM's Blog - it has some good ideas on solo's and making them more enjoyable.

To be honest though, I personally have never really had a problem with combats in 4e taking too long - outside of the players themselves stuffing around and slowing it down.

[Vitruviansquid]

Update: I'm currently looking at giving everyone +2 encounter power reuses per encounter and pisonic classes +3pp. The monsters, on the other hand, get +33% damage (which should be easy enough to calculate, though my next session will be dedicated to seeing if this is a good idea after all.)

One of my players suggested I shouldn't buff the damage on MM3 monsters, which really do already hit hard enough. What do you guys think? When I used a couple MM3 monsters for the first time on the group, it actually spiced things up a lot because people were in danger a lot more. I was even considering outright doubling MM1-2 monster damage, then leaving MM3 monsters alone, given the disparity. Of course, I'm asking you guys whether or not it's a good idea, since I don't really spend a lot of time flipping through all my MM's.

[chaotoroboto]

How high level is your party?

At will spam decreases significantly by level 7, as players have more encounter powers that are more likely to be relevant. At level 12, the players in my game almost never run out of encounters.

I'm happy to cut the HP of monsters short, but I try and come up with other options instead. One thing that's helped out a lot is letting people use multiple action points in an encounter. If they know they're milestoning at the end of the encounter, they're usually happy to do that, which can push the action along nicely. And if an encounter's dragging, it's always okay to say "And that hit drops it, the dragon explodes into a gargantuan pile of flaming ichor, congratulations!" even though they have 150 hitpoints left.

I have a tendency to design long encounters, and for my big encounters it's not uncommon for them to last 30, 40, or 50 rounds. So I've had to come up with a fix for the encounter and daily burn out, and here's what it's evolved to:

When I have an encounter that's obviously going to run long, then I set waypoints in it. When the party makes a certain distance, or sets off a certain trap, or kills a certain number of enemies, or all become bloodied, then I give them the option of spending a single healing surge, regaining their encounters, and rolling a single saving throw. However, if they want to maintain their stances/dailies/end of encounter effects, they have to spend a healing surge for each one. For ongoing effects with a sustain cost or that end at the end of next turn, I let those stay up for free. If the party hits the next waypoint before five turns, then I skip that waypoint, but if something like ten turns have gone by and they don't look close to the next one, I give them the option again at that point. Every other, I give them the choice of an action point or regaining a daily. Each time one of these waypoints comes up, it's party option whether or not the whole party takes it.

Finally, I find it useful to put a timer on the encounter: a flood rising from the bottom of the cave, the boat's going to fall off a waterfall in ten turns, the king's army is approaching and will burst through the door any moment. If the cave's going to collapse and anything inside's going to die, maybe it's worthwhile to just immobilize the dragon and grab the loot on the way out.

[Kurald Galain]

I have a tendency to design long encounters, and for my big encounters it's not uncommon for them to last 30, 40, or 50 rounds. So I've had to come up with a fix for the encounter and daily burn out, and here's what it's evolved to:

...wow!

Around here, the average encounter lasts four rounds.

[TricksyAndFalse]

Something I've done to speed up combats involving Soldiers and Brutes is to have them ignore marks until bloodied, or to not fear provoking opportunity attacks. I think the same can apply to Elites and Solos. The PCs get lots of opportunites to get extra hits or auto-damage in, and my players get a big kick out of punishing the monster for making "errors".

When I play the monsters to live as long as they can, they tend to live for too long.

[Dragosai]

Are you using the errata for monster damage and hit points? If not I would suggest using them before you change overall mechanics around encounter powers and such.

[Grogmir]

As a player there's not a lot you can do, except try and Intimidate the monsters when there bloodied,
Also OOC express your displeasure to the DM.

As a DM there's loads you can do - Glass Cannon as other have said, but I've found the same problem with Elites, Solo's

Now I much prefer to run Solo's of a level or so lower than the party - with some sort of themic enviroment help, such as a Dragon in a volcano etc.
otherwise they do seem to stagnate into bash, bash, bash.

As TricksyAndFalse said play monsters a little less 'swat' like and the survivability goes down quickly too.

Happy Rollin'

[TheEmerged]

I've only had 2 fights go beyond 10 rounds so far -- one was a solo mob, the other was the first use of my home-adjusted myconids (the hp-sharing mushrooms). 4-5 rounds is the average, with 7-8 being the point where things start wearing out.

1> First, consider using smaller health pools in favor of monsters with resistances and some healing. This does make them vulnerable to sudden spikes of damage -- and that's the point. I have to watch for this in my party because the rogue can sometimes get frightening results (last session, there was a round where he did ~80 points of damage without spending an action point).

2> Examine the party's tactics. Are they concentrating attacks properly? Are they remembering their damage bonuses (like the extra dice most weapons give on critical hits)? Have they chosen feats & powers that help the party instead of just themselves (like the rogue power to allow a party member to get Sneak Attack damage)?

3> You said you want to keep the current party mix... but if fights continue going long, you might want to take a look here too. During our first sessions the five-player party included two leaders, but since that was a laser cleric and a tactical warlord, it worked fine. When we switched to a pacifist healer and a bard, though, we noticed combat taking much longer. Now that we've hit paragon and switched to a single leader (a cleric with a mix of buffs & damage) but two strikers (a monk & the rogue) combat is almost going TOO fast (an encounter I figured for 8 rounds ended in 4, for example).

4> In-combat traps and hazards. People overlook these, but they can make an encounter tougher without making it longer.

5> Finally, never underestimate the danger of a "puzzle" boss - the one they can't beat just by attack, but have to do various things in the room before they can hurt them.

[IdleMuse]

I must admit, I've noticed this problem in the couple of 4e games i've been in; specifically against elite solos.

Part of the problem we realised was party balance; in one game, where the combats were taking upwards of ten rounds, we had only a Ranger, a Bard, and two Swordmages. The bard was mostly statted towards controller/leader, so that left me (the ranger) as the only character capable of decent DPS; the two swordmages just got incredibly frustrated at their lack of capability.

The DM rushed the end of the fight when he realised it wasn't fun.

I suppose it made more of a difference to us, since we're used to playing intelligent encounters with good t1 mages in 3.5, combats rarely last longer than 2 rounds.

[Tequila Sunrise]

One of my players suggested I shouldn't buff the damage on MM3 monsters, which really do already hit hard enough. What do you guys think? When I used a couple MM3 monsters for the first time on the group, it actually spiced things up a lot because people were in danger a lot more. I was even considering outright doubling MM1-2 monster damage, then leaving MM3 monsters alone, given the disparity. Of course, I'm asking you guys whether or not it's a good idea, since I don't really spend a lot of time flipping through all my MM's.

Your player's right; the designers used new and tougher damage guidelines for MM3. The guidelines actually appear in the latest DMG errata.

[valadil]

I have a tendency to design long encounters, and for my big encounters it's not uncommon for them to last 30, 40, or 50 rounds.

Out of morbid curiosity, could you post what one of those encounters looks like? I have the problem that my encounters are too short. They rarely last three rounds (although the players still claim they're being challenged).

[Evard]

I always found that my 3.5 encounters take longer than the 4e encounters.

Of course there was the one 4e encounter that had a minion generator that took the players an hour to figure out >.>

[MightyTim]

In general, your solution of giving extra encounter powers will make encounters go a lot faster, yes, but it'll also make them easier. Since elites and solo monsters in 4e, as written, tend to be underpowered in general, I'd advise that your best bet would be to tweak the abilities of the monsters you're using rather than your players.

Elites and solos from MM1 and MM2 in general have too much health and do too little damage, and this problem worsens as level increases. Halving health and doubling damage of these monsters is going to be a lot more interesting way to solve your problem.

[CakeTown]

In my regular group, combat usually takes a long time, both in-game, and real life. For real life, we have 6 players, and sometimes they get distracted while it's someone else's turn. It's gotten a bit better now, but it was their first campaign, so they'd often spend 5 or so minutes deciding what to do.

Now, for in-game, I really don't see why it takes us so long. Our party consists of 1 Leader, 1 Defender, and 4 Strikers. That should make combat a lot faster, right? Wrong. Our battles often last 10 or so rounds, and we're usually tired by the end of them. Maybe it's because our DM likes to throw high level enemies at us(the final enemy we fought was a level 18 Dracolich, when the party consisted of level 10s and 11s), but I think combat should be a lot shorter.

Out of all the ideas suggested, I really like the half hp, double damage, and the multiple uses of action points. I might have to suggest them to my DM.

[Vitruviansquid]

For those who asked: the party's level 11. They're running mostly strikers (Monk, Hybrid Paladin/Warlock, Rogue, Barbarian, Ardent), though the next session, the hybrid is rerolling to pure warlock while the monk is rerolling to a pure defender.

I'm going through with the added encounter powers/pp fix, and right now I'm looking at how to make monsters more lethal.

They're used to steamrolling the MM1-2 monsters (sans errata), so I figure using MM3 monsters and adjusting MM1-2 monsters to fit the errata guidelines will work. If they continue to steamroll the monsters, I'm looking at +33% damage for all monsters.

The main reason is I find long combats okay, as long as the combats remain interesting. In the interest of real life time, the added encounters should contribute to ending the fights sooner, but I chose that route instead of just playing with monsters' numbers because it keeps combats interesting.

[Balain]

My opinion fighting a solo monster should take a long time. It is suppose to be epic.

I find using the standard encounters the players find too easy and beefing up the encounters the players have more fun. The encounters take longer but the players feel threatened.

I normally add hp to the monsters and do extra damage here and there. At least major encounters get this treatment. The players feel challenged and are super happy when they get a crit because all the encounter powers and dailies are used up and 1/2 the party is low on healing surges and at least 2 party members dropped to 0 HP (but were revived by either the cleric, bard or the goblin lacky they stock up with healing potions)

[chaotoroboto]

Out of morbid curiosity, could you post what one of those encounters looks like? I have the problem that my encounters are too short. They rarely last three rounds (although the players still claim they're being challenged).

Sure. The player favorite, and the one I think worked the best, took three or four weeknight games, with long breaks because my players are all smokers.

I have a big ass battlemat, and the encounter starts at the bottom. It's a tunnel that is steeply uphill and very curvy - a cut through the mountains. There's one obvious way through the tunnel, and one secret path with a dracolich embedded in the wall, as well as a big ole pile of treasure. The theme for the tunnel is that it is the home of an Orium dragon that has collected a variety of dangerous artifacts, and allows evil creatures to crash there as long as they don't mess with his treasure. Room by the entrance starts with some Duergar, a little open area. There's two small side paths off of that room that have bulettes sleeping, waiting to attack. At the bottom of these paths, there's small springs.

The main path goes through an area of animated archer statues, complete with requisite gel cube, then turns and goes through an area with some trolls camped out. Here our hidden detour rejoins. Past that is a domination trap, and then to the dragon, who is sitting and waiting, occasionally sending his little fog snakes out to taunt the party.

The party starts off by fighting the Duergar. They do this loudly and rashly, and wake the bulettes. As the bulettes start burrowing around, the cave starts shaking. About the time they defeat everyone in the room, it starts filling up with water. I had a 36 square rise and rolled a d4 every round - on a 1, the water stayed where it was, on a 4 it rose by 3 squares. The roof was low - two squares throughout, and I had written the elevation on every square on the map.

As the waters rise, the players are pushed forward into encounters they're not really ready for yet, which hurries the perceived pace, even though it's a long slow grinder of an encounter. Also, blind cave sharks start swimming up from the bottom of the cave. When the party gets to a safe point (between the trolls and the trap) the bottom of the previous part of the cave falls away, and the only way out is through the Dragon, who thanks them for rescuing his hoard.

Half the party went through the main path, and the other half went through the hidden tunnel - not because anyone decided, but because they were split by water and sharks.

Also, I like to have things be party-triggered, and since my players are somewhat jaded, some fake surprises. So the Dracolich was actually presented as "The fossilized bones of a dragon, embedded clearly in the stone of the wall" (response: "Oh no, it's a dracolich!"), the animated archers were presented as statues ("Ah, traps!"), then as traps ("See, told you"), then started chasing the players ("They can move?").

All of my players are in serious games at some other point during the week, so I try and keep things more, I dunno, action-oriented?

[Delcan]

One of the biggest problems I've noticed in 4e as the levels progress is that players tend not to pay attention to what's going on on the battlefield when it's not their turn. They'll pay attention to when the monsters go (to formulate their own strategy) but otherwise attention tends to wander. It does two things: lengthens game time (since it takes time to check on what everyone else has done during the fight) and reduces teamwork (since noone's really coordinating).

I remember seeing a blog post somewhere that suggested this be remedied by simplifying initiative back to the way it was in some 2e games: one side goes first, then the other. This way, there's only two turns, the monster turn, and the PC turn. Players will pay attention to both turns, and also use the synchronous turns with each other to set up combination attacks and well-coordinated strategies - which can lead to well-organized, and thus quicker, battles in general.

[NMBLNG]

Delcan's idea intrigues me. I will have to try it.

I endorse what the other people have already posted: less hp on monsters, and get players to pay more attention. As DM, you have a bit less impact on how much players pay attention though.

I'd also emphasize not playing cautious with monsters. Have them provoke as long as they can be effective. Also, consider lowering the AC and other defenses of monsters if it still takes too long. Players will often refrain from using more powerful attacks if the chance of hitting is low.

Perhaps encourage RP situations that reduce the power / hp of an enemy (like dunking a red dragon in a cold body of water or something) or other situations where they can get a guaranteed hit.