Who will "win" in warhammer 40k?

[classy one]

Hi everyone, long time lurker first time poster. Nice to meet you all.

I was wondering what everyone's opinion was on which race had the best chances of "winning" in WH40K. By winning I mean total galatic dominance, whether by occupation, consumption, or out right destruction. To be THE super power in the milky way, able to do thing at will without any oversight or care for the other races. This is fluff based, and not mechanically based. I'm not a pro with all the races so if the fluff is wrong or needs more clarification then please let me know.

Imperium of Man:
In theory, humans are the galactic superpower, but they are far from dominant. They are attacked by all, progress is non-existant, the savior is trapped by his task of maintaining the FTL beacon, least inter-system travel come to a halt. Nothing seems to be going right for humanity.

Chances of success: low, the human historians are very pessimistic, calling the current age "the age of ending". Human society is completly stagnant, war is all that exists. The fact that technology is not progressing is very crippling.

How they can win: the Imperium of Man, as a whole, has survived everything so far. They have the most adaptable millitary that can deal with any situation, and the population to support all the branches of its considerable war machine. Consider the Imperium's complete arsenal and it is easy to see how they have withstood attack after attack: the numberous IG, the skilled and superhuman Space Marines, the holy Grey Knights, the secretive Inquisition, the devastating Navy.
If the Imperium would allow the Star Child/Emperor to be reborn then Humanity's chances would also raise greatly. However, it is doubtful that mankind would survive without the Astronomican's light, the destruction of the Emperor's webway project made sure of that.
There is also the chance that the missing loyal Primarchs will return, giving humanity a big boost.

The Eldar
Once before the Fall, the Eldar had the galaxy in its palms. Now....... well not so much. The exiles and craftworlders continue to hide and alienate other races, while the dark Eldar need constant prey to keep their souls.

Chances of success: low to none. The Eldar are few, ununified, and have little to no allies in a vast galaxy of things that like the taste of their souls. In many ways they did this themselves, creating a Chaos god, sacrificing "lesser" races so a handful of their own can survive, or activily killing others so their souls are not siphoned away. The Eldar drove themselves into a cornor with their arrogance and now are paying the price.

How they can win:They are still the most technologicaly advanced race. But Y'nnead seems to be their best shot. The nasent god of death growing in the infinity circuit could be the ace they need to turn the tables on She who Thrists.

Orks
As the most successful race, it is wonder why they haven't won yet.

Chances of success:Good. Tough and strong combined with high reproduction rates AND fast maturation, makes Orks a top contender. This combined with easy logistics and stable economy allow the Boyz to make war all day long. One good Waaaagh! is very hard to withstand.

What is stopping them: They are not too bright..... Their high population is controlled by the fact that they often turn against eachother. They also enjoy the fight rather than victory, and will sabatoge themselves just to prolong the fight. A prime example is when Ghazghkull released Yarrick just to have a worthy opponent. Another factor is that Space Hulks are completly random. So even if a Ork hears of a fun Waaaagh! going on they might not have a reliable way of getting there.



More to come......

[The Glyphstone]

There's a 40K discussion thread already in Gaming (other). This would belong there.

[Flickerdart]

You can't win in WH40K, you can only lose the least.

[hamishspence]

There's a 40K discussion thread already in Gaming (other). This would belong there.

Yes- possibly in the 40K fluff thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...140569&page=36

rather than the tabletop gaming thread:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...156779&page=41

[Coidzor]

Ahh, adventures in missing the point.

[BladeofOblivion]

For the record, the sides with the best chances of winning are the:

Chaos: Because they feed off of universal emotions.

Tyranids: Due to sheer numbers and survivability, but without as many of the Ork's weaknesses.

Necrons: Because every soldier is, essentially, invincible. Also, they have even more advanced technology than the Eldar.

(Sort-Of) The Imperium. If the Emperor was to finally die, the veneration of him by the Bajillions of Citizens of the Imperium of Man would likely turn his spirit into a Warp Entity with more or less Infinite power. This would make him Millions of times stronger than the ALL OF THE CHAOS GODS COMBINED. This would allow him to completely crush Chaos in one fell swoop, reuniting these legions with the Imperium and giving all of the advantages Chaos had to the entire Imperium. This includes Safe Warp Travel, Insanely Powerful Psykers, and all the support the chaos gods were able to offer to their servants times a million. This would make them powerful enough to contend with any of the threats plaguing them. This is very conditional and the trigger event is unlikely to occur, however.

[Tyndmyr]

Nids and Necrons are the only race with a possibility of winning. And by necrons, I mean solely the C'tan, since the rest are slaves anyway.

Let's break it down.

Chaos: Very powerful. But...fed by emotions of sentient beings. So, if their enemy gets bigger, they get bigger. Good setup for eternal conflict, but anything with emotion can never actually beat them, nor can they all be beaten by chaos.

Orks: Has emotions. See above.

Eldar: Ditto. Also, dying off, which is an obvious fail with regards to winning.

Imperium: Ditto. Also in decline, and utterly dependant on the emperor. Who is basically dead.

Tau: Slight chance. They have emotion, but less of it. Could actually get an edge on chaos. Of course, they have to kill everything else living in the galaxy first, and in size, they're a fleabite of a race.

Dark Eldar: Like chaos, but not actually created by emotion, so not part of that equation. instead, parasites. parasites that will themselves be feasted on if they stop killing. So, even if they win, they lose. Horribly screwed.

Nids: No emotion, just eating machines. Good at it. From another galaxy, so are the only known transgalactic force. That's a damned good edge.

Necrons: No emotion, just robots enslaved by old gods. Very few gods, now. Both robots and gods are nigh impossible to kill permanently. Here's the kicker. Necrons and nids just ignore each other. Massive advantage there.

So...joint necron/nid win is the safe bet.

[BladeofOblivion]

Nids and Necrons are the only race with a possibility of winning. And by necrons, I mean solely the C'tan, since the rest are slaves anyway.

Let's break it down.

Chaos: Very powerful. But...fed by emotions of sentient beings. So, if their enemy gets bigger, they get bigger. Good setup for eternal conflict, but anything with emotion can never actually beat them, nor can they all be beaten by chaos.

Orks: Has emotions. See above.

Eldar: Ditto. Also, dying off, which is an obvious fail with regards to winning.

Imperium: Ditto. Also in decline, and utterly dependant on the emperor. Who is basically dead.

Tau: Slight chance. They have emotion, but less of it. Could actually get an edge on chaos. Of course, they have to kill everything else living in the galaxy first, and in size, they're a fleabite of a race.

Dark Eldar: Like chaos, but not actually created by emotion, so not part of that equation. instead, parasites. parasites that will themselves be feasted on if they stop killing. So, even if they win, they lose. Horribly screwed.

Nids: No emotion, just eating machines. Good at it. From another galaxy, so are the only known transgalactic force. That's a damned good edge.

Necrons: No emotion, just robots enslaved by old gods. Very few gods, now. Both robots and gods are nigh impossible to kill permanently. Here's the kicker. Necrons and nids just ignore each other. Massive advantage there.

So...joint necron/nid win is the safe bet.

You're right about Chaos. All I have to say about this is that as stated above, the Emperor's Complete Death would probably be the greatest boon possible to the Imperium, and might even give them a fighting chance against the Necrons and Tyranids.

[classy one]

Ah I didn't know this belonged in another section. Sorry for the n00b mistake. I'm guessing I can't move it myself so I'll post here until that has happened.

I don't know what all this talk about emotion is about..... Tau have emotions and yet have almost no impression in the Warp. Even though Necrons have no emotions they and the C'tan are very vunervable to warp based attacks. In fact they are trying to seal off real time-space from the Warp with pylons.

[BladeofOblivion]

The talk about emotion is a little too specific for the intended meaning, But the Chaos Gods feed off their portfolio. This means that if anyone, anywhere in the galaxy, does or feels something that meets their portfolio, the Chaos God in question grows in strength. Khorne is the most powerful of them at the moment due to the fact that war exists more than pleasure, disease, or even Change.

[HamHam]

Besides just the meta-logic of the Status Quo, I think that probably no one will ever "win" because the whole galaxy is practically an ecosystem.

You can beat an Ork invasion, but another one will always spring up.
The Nids can wipe out a planet, but eventually someone will repopulate it.

And so forth and so on.

[BladeofOblivion]

The Imperium can destroy a planet. No repopulating that thing. Necrons and Tyranids will survive the sudden explosion though.

[BobVosh]

I absolutely agree with the necron/tyranid joint victory. After this, the nid may go for the necron. However I doubt it. They will probably move on the the next galaxy.

[classy one]

I know no one will really win, that's why it's in quotes. It's pure mental masterbation, more "what if" rather than "this and that". If you don't see the fun of a hypothetical debate than don't participate, this thread is for people who like it.

Since Chaos has been brought up.....

Chaos:
Since the War in Heaven tainted the Warp, it has been gaining in influence and strength since. It already has a whole mirror galaxy under its thumb and working hard to increase its sphere of power. And succeeding.

Chances of success: High. Any sentient being is at risk of falling to Chaos, and many have. The Horus Herasey was the greatest example, and its consequences were titanic. Chaos marines and demons are bad enough, but Chaos' real strength lies in subversion, planting doubt, making enemies into allies. Choas gods are probaly the only beings in the galaxy really have a good time.

What is stopping them: The paradox about the forces of Chaos is that they feed off the emotions of their prey. If they did kill everything and/or turn all sentient beings into demons they would disappear. My personal theory is that Chaos is trying to kill everything and reset itself to its original state when the Old Ones were around. Once that happens, all sentient life will be gone and the Warp will return to its true state.

Tyranids
The superorganism that has already eaten unknown number of other galaxies. The gestalt Hive mind creates mini warp gods that blocks all psychic travel and communication. They are just plain terrible.

Chances of success:Very high, they have history on their side, having eaten whole galaxies dry, and the Milky Way is just going to be another notch under their belt. Now they have genes from Primarchs and Orks? Grey Knights (and hence the Emperor himself)? How long will it take for them to make full use of such potent genetics? What if they were combined? Not even Chaos messes with them, their psychic impression is so massive it dwarves whole planets.

What is stopping them: The being of the milky way have been putting up a good fight. There is also the fact that they are a bit random, almost like space fishing when it comes to finding a prey planet. They also seem to move in a straight line (a few light years wide) rather than spread, so it is possible they go from one end of the galaxy to the other without touching the systems further out. One can only hope.....

Tau:
The new kids on the block, these guys are on the rise and are very confident in their chances. In some ways they could be right.

Chances of success: Fair. A very advanced xenos race and continually getting better. If they continue to progress they could gain a signifigant advantage against others. Their philosophy of the Greater Good is understandably appealing in such a dark universe, even if it is a bit misleading. Unlike the Eldar, they try their best to make friends (at gunpoint) and often gain a planet without ever firing a shot. The Kroot are an interesting race that also intergrates genetic material of others to make themselves stronger just like the 'Nids.

What is stopping them: One thing that is stopping them is the lack or really really long term FTL travel. This greatly limits their mobility, so even if they have bigger and better weapons, it is useless if they can't get to the battle in time. They also a general lack of understanding of Warp, which might be a disadvantage when it comes to dealing with psykers and Chaos.

[BladeofOblivion]

It may be worth noting that the Tau are a Tiny empire, though they are Tight-Knit, so a bureaucracy failure won't destroy a colony the same way it happens to the Imperium.

[classy one]

(Sort-Of) The Imperium. If the Emperor was to finally die, the veneration of him by the Bajillions of Citizens of the Imperium of Man would likely turn his spirit into a Warp Entity with more or less Infinite power. This would make him Millions of times stronger than the ALL OF THE CHAOS GODS COMBINED. This would allow him to completely crush Chaos in one fell swoop, reuniting these legions with the Imperium and giving all of the advantages Chaos had to the entire Imperium. This includes Safe Warp Travel, Insanely Powerful Psykers, and all the support the chaos gods were able to offer to their servants times a million. This would make them powerful enough to contend with any of the threats plaguing them. This is very conditional and the trigger event is unlikely to occur, however.

Not too sure about this. Here's what wiki has to say about the death of the Emperor:

Emperor's death could herald a new savior for humanity. That time would lie far in the future, when mankind's collective desire for a new savior would strengthen the core of the Emperor's soul in the Warp and rekindle it to new life. The soul of the Emperor adrift in the Warp is the being referred to by the lluminati as the Star Child. The humans that were left in charge of the Imperium after the Horus Heresy had no real understanding of what had happened to the Emperor. Though the Emperor's body continued to live within the Golden Throne and his mind continued to be a beacon for humanity, his soul is a new, benevolent god of the Warp, waiting to be born.

So while the Emperor would become a true god if he was allowed to die, it would be years before it would happen. That would be years without the Astranomican and hence no FTL travel. It is doubtful that their would be any humans to worship this new god by the time it really happens. Also no where does it say how powerful this new god would be. Even with all of humanity's worship the Chaos gods encompass all sentient beings (except for energy beings).

[BladeofOblivion]

So while the Emperor would become a true god if he was allowed to die, it would be years before it would happen. That would be years without the Astranomican and hence no FTL travel. It is doubtful that their would be any humans to worship this new god by the time it really happens. Also no where does it say how powerful this new god would be. Even with all of humanity's worship the Chaos gods encompass all sentient beings (except for energy beings).

Ah, but the number of beings who fervently worship the Chaos Gods, Giving them a Very large portion of their power, is tiny compared to the number who worship the Emperor. In addition, Read through that passage again. The soul is currently separate from the body and Mind. The soul is forming into this God on its own, but the Emperor's body must die to allow his mind to meet his soul, "Birthing" the God. Also, isn't the Astronomican powered by the souls of 10,000 Psykers each Day?

[HamHam]

The Imperium can destroy a planet. No repopulating that thing. Necrons and Tyranids will survive the sudden explosion though.

Orks will always repopulate. :P

[classy one]

Ah, but the number of beings who fervently worship the Chaos Gods, Giving them a Very large portion of their power, is tiny compared to the number who worship the Emperor. In addition, Read through that passage again. The soul is currently separate from the body and Mind. The soul is forming into this God on its own, but the Emperor's body must die to allow his mind to meet his soul, "Birthing" the God. Also, isn't the Astronomican powered by the souls of 10,000 Psykers each Day?

The star child is only the core of the Emperor's soul, it is far from complete, and many years will be needed to before it reaches its full divinity. The devotion of humanity serves to preserve the star child but it is still just a child. Will humanity survive while this new human god matures is another issue, will it even mature when forge and hive worlds starve off?

The Astronomican is powered by 10,000 psykers who have their life force drained in a matter of months (not hours). The Emperor is the one who directs it and channels the "light". The metaphor is that the psykers are the choir and the Emperor is the conductor.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm voting for whatever the Tyranid fleets are running from.

[BladeofOblivion]

The star child is only the core of the Emperor's soul, it is far from complete, and many years will be needed to before it reaches its full divinity. The devotion of humanity serves to preserve the star child but it is still just a child. Will humanity survive while this new human god matures is another issue, will it even mature when forge and hive worlds starve off?

The Astronomican is powered by 10,000 psykers who have their life force drained in a matter of months (not hours). The Emperor is the one who directs it and channels the "light". The metaphor is that the psykers are the choir and the Emperor is the conductor.

You are correct, but look at the size of the Imperium on a Galactic Map. Look how much ground it has lost in the entire War. The Imperium could reasonably survive another several millenia, even without the aforementioned Super-Emperor/God.

[mobdrazhar]

I"m sorry to tell you but if the Empoeror fully dies the Imperium will be at it's worst ever for the next 1000 years until his rebirth.

This is due to the fact that the only reason Imperial Psykers can communicate with each other over long distances is due to the Emperor being a conduit for it. This is the same for the Navigators of all ships (who are also psykers) due to the fact that the Emperor acts as a becon\lighthouse for all all travel and makes it safer for it.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm voting for whatever the Tyranid fleets are running from.

The Squats?

[Bosh]

Um, what are you guys talking about? The orcs have already won. The universe is exactly how the orcs want it to be. If that isn't winning, then what is?

[classy one]

Um, what are you guys talking about? The orcs have already won. The universe is exactly how the orcs want it to be. If that isn't winning, then what is?

That is...... a very valid point.......

The Imperium has a shot but it is long one. The Emperor's reincaration is key but how would mankind survive without FTL travel? If technology wasn't stagnant they could use the teleporting tech that the Necrons use and give the Star Child time. But after 10,000 years this has not happened and the chances of it happening are getting slim as the constant war and dogma prevent any advancement.

[mobdrazhar]

The Squats?

I'm sorry but they were already put on the Tyranid dinner table

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd say, if the Tau can overcome their mobility limitations by advancing their technology and understanding the technology of other races, they would have a great chance. It all depends on how well it is POSSIBLE to understand things like the warp or the webways for a nonpsychic race. Alternately, one of their allies could become BETTER at psychic stuff, especially if they ever start to do a serious serious study into genetics, with a mind to improving the psychic capabilities of Kroot / Demiurg / Nicassar, or understanding the psychic capabilities of some of their Gue'vesa, that could skyrocket possible solutions to their mobility issues. Basically, to me, the Tau, being the only race that is *advancing and growing*, actually does have a good chance... assuming they leverage their allies and learn from them...

[mobdrazhar]

I'd say, if the Tau can overcome their mobility limitations by advancing their technology and understanding the technology of other races, they would have a great chance. It all depends on how well it is POSSIBLE to understand things like the warp or the webways for a nonpsychic race. Alternately, one of their allies could become BETTER at psychic stuff, especially if they ever start to do a serious serious study into genetics, with a mind to improving the psychic capabilities of Kroot / Demiurg / Nicassar, or understanding the psychic capabilities of some of their Gue'vesa, that could skyrocket possible solutions to their mobility issues. Basically, to me, the Tau, being the only race that is *advancing and growing*, actually does have a good chance... assuming they leverage their allies and learn from them...

They can't travel the webways\warp as they have no warp signature... no Tau does

[holywhippet]

Some things to remember:

- The C'tan don't much like the warp (being vulnerable to it) and if they ever finish their project to seal it off, pretty much every other race is screwed.

- The C'tan might not like the taste of the Tyranids, but if the 'Nids strip the galaxy of everything organic it might mean the C'tan will never be able to feed again. They went to sleep the first time knowing that life would eventually repopulate, but that requires organic material which the Tyranids eat. I'd assume they'd have some kind of objection to this.

- The Tau might only have small numbers, but they have really powerful technology. It's believed that their race was modified by the last surviving ancients which is an advantage all on it's own.

- The Chaos gods aren't likely to be happy about losing most of their worshippers - thus the Necrons and Tyranids would be prime enemies if they became too active.

[Ravens_cry]

I'm sorry but they were already put on the Tyranid dinner table

That's what they want you to think. In fact, the Squats invented Time Travel and went back before the whole mess started. They didn't take into account galactic movement, and ended up several galaxies away in Space.
They are coming.