intelligence + mindless?

[Amador]

So I'm thinking of playing a gelatinous ooze, with a template added on. What happens when a mindless base creature has a intelligence added?

[Milskidasith]

What template?

It probably isn't legal on oozes.

[KillianHawkeye]

You can apply the Fiendish Template to an Ooze (for example). A Fiendish Gelatinous Cube would have an Int 3.

[Amador]

I'm thinking of half-dragon. There's no conflict by the rules in MM.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, you can have a mindless creature with Intelligence. Same way you can have a evil creature without an intelligence; even though animals are neutral (and have no Intelligence).

[WarKitty]

I'm thinking of half-dragon. There's no conflict by the rules in MM.

That is...definitely odd.

[Jack_Simth]

I'm thinking of half-dragon. There's no conflict by the rules in MM.

There's no conflict, but you've got a problem: You're adding to a nonability, which doesn't work. You stay Mindless.

Now, things like the Celestial or Fiendish template? They say "Intelligence at least 3" - giving the critter a mind (and with it, skills and feats). But Half-Dragon isn't going to cut it for what you want.

[Yuki Akuma]

Try Fiendish Half-Dragon instead?

[DanReiv]

Anarchic/Axiomatic creatures template from Planar Handbook can also be applied on oozes and gives 3 INT.

Axiomatic Para-Elemental Ooze (grr elemental type not ooze)

EDIT : BUT THEN

Living spells are oozes. Pretty sure you can do some fun stuff here.

Fiendish Living Presdigitation with class levels anyone ?

[Reis Tahlen]

I'm thinking of half-dragon. There's no conflict by the rules in MM.

Half-dragon, half-ooze? The backstory behind this must be pure gold!

The majestic dragon bowed his head, looking her lover with what could be a tender smile.
- You know, I never met someone like you before. You seem to understand my needs, my feelings... I wonder what my life could have been without you.
The gelatinous ooze shivered, and replied:
- Prlrlllttflgb..
- I love you too, honey

[Wings of Peace]

I'm curious what the actual rules interaction here is between Gelatinous Ooze and templates that grant an intelligence bonus since we're not adding to zero we're adding to a stat that doesn't exist, it seems similar to trying to give an undead creature a con score via templates. Or are undead a special case?

[Umael]

Half-dragon, half-ooze? The backstory behind this must be pure gold!

The majestic dragon bowed his head, looking her lover with what could be a tender smile.
- You know, I never met someone like you before. You seem to understand my needs, my feelings... I wonder what my life could have been without you.
The gelatinous ooze shivered, and replied:
- Prlrlllttflgb..
- I love you too, honey

...
I hate you.

*goes for the brain bleach*

[DanReiv]

The fiendish/aligned creature doesn't just gives a +3 bonus to int. It states

Abilities

Same as the base creature, but Intelligence is at least 3.

I'd say for an ooze it goes from nothing to 3. But then does it still get all the immunities for being mindless ?

[WarKitty]

Don't oozes reproduce by splitting?

[hamishspence]

In the MM, under Nonabilities, on page 312, Mindless is a property that anything with INT - gains.

This may imply, that anything that gains an Int score, automatically loses respective immunities.

[SurlySeraph]

Anarchic/Axiomatic creatures template from Planar Handbook can also be applied on oozes and gives 3 INT.

Axiomatic Para-Elemental Ooze (grr elemental type not ooze)

EDIT : BUT THEN

Living spells are oozes. Pretty sure you can do some fun stuff here.

Fiendish Living Presdigitation with class levels anyone ?

Too much fun, not enough terrifying. Try a Feral Living Disjunction Warblade.

[Admiral Squish]

I'm just curious, why does everyone go to fiendish first? Celestial does that exact same.

[DanReiv]

Odly enough, it don't.

"Celestial" is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, plant, or vermin of good or neutral alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

No ooze here. No Celestial Living Holy Word with paladin level to compete with the previous build

The gelatinous ooze shivered, and replied:
- Prlrlllttflgb..
- I love you too, honey

That really cracked me up

[Jack_Simth]

I'm just curious, why does everyone go to fiendish first? Celestial does that exact same.

Most people are thinking "opponents", and *most* PC's are nominally good-aligned. So when considering templates that are for monsters the PC's will fight, most people think "Fiendish" before "Celestial".

Most people.

[hamishspence]

There's no conflict, but you've got a problem: You're adding to a nonability, which doesn't work. You stay Mindless.

Does it actually say it works that way for all nonabilities? I checked and it doesn't mention it in the MM or SRD.

[Wings of Peace]

Monster Manual on Nonabilities (pg. 7): Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed in the Glossary.

Nonabilities can't be increased with templates because we're not trying to add to zero we're trying to add to something that for the purpose of the creature does not exist.

[Fax Celestis]

Elder Ooze from Dungeonscape explicitly gives an unintelligent ooze an Int score and doesn't remove its mindlessness. Enjoy.

[DanReiv]

But a fiendish thing can't have less than 3 in INT. The template doesn't add INT as a +3 INT and has oozes as possible base creature. It states "same as base creature but Intelligence is at least 3".

Common sense would be it keeps ooze traits except anything with being mindless. So not immune to mind affecting and so on, but is sentient and can pick, skills, feats and class-levels.

Also it is stated in the SRD in ooze type that

However, most oozes are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.

The "most" here means that technically you can have sentient oozes, with INT, skills and feats (and incidently, ability to pick up class levels)

[panaikhan]

OK, I'll bite. What class levels would a Gelatenous Cube possibly want?

[Wings of Peace]

OK, I'll bite. What class levels would a Gelatenous Cube possibly want?

Ooze Master?

[DanReiv]

Dungeon Crasher ACF ?

[Reis Tahlen]

OK, I'll bite. What class levels would a Gelatenous Cube possibly want?

Woozard?

[EvilJames]

An oozes immunity to mind affecting abilities don't come from it's mindlessness they are a feature of oozes. So an inteligent ooze keeps all abilities that all oozes have as listed in the MM. All the Mindlessnes does is keep them from learning feats and skills.

This also applies to constructs made intelligent. Force Golems are still immune to mind affecting abilities despite having average Int.

[TaintedLight]

Woozard?

The thread is won.

Can I ask from what, in the name of all that is holy, unholy, or otherwise, your desire to play such a character arises?

[hamishspence]

An oozes immunity to mind affecting abilities don't come from it's mindlessness they are a feature of oozes. So an inteligent ooze keeps all abilities that all oozes have as listed in the MM. All the Mindlessnes does is keep them from learning feats and skills.

Non-ability- Intelligence, actually does grant immunity to mind-affecting abilities:

Nonabilities
Some creatures lack certain ability scores. These creatures do not have an ability score of 0—they lack the ability altogether. The modifier for a nonability is +0. Other effects of nonabilities are detailed below.

Intelligence
Any creature that can think, learn, or remember has at least 1 point of Intelligence. A creature with no Intelligence score is mindless, an automaton operating on simple instincts or programmed instructions. It has immunity to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) and automatically fails Intelligence checks.

Mindless creatures do not gain feats or skills, although they may have bonus feats or racial skill bonuses.

The ooze's immunity to mind-affecting effects is listed with it's [Int -] in the property: Mindless.

and in MMV, instead of specifically calling them out, it simply says: Mindless: the Ooze has Int -, and all the traits associated with that nonability.

Whereas constructs, as written, have an immunity to mind-affecting effects that is not dependant on Int -, but is built into the Construct type- all get it unless specified otherwise.