charging + archery in 3.5

[heymejack]

seems like it shouldn't be too tough, you stay out of melee, pepper your enemies with ranged full attacks, and then when the opportunity presents itself, charge through for big damage.

seems like paladin is the way to go for the mount and for the smite evil on melee to make the charges more worthwhile. champ of corellian? halfling outrider? wild plains outrider? cavalier?

fighter, for the feats?

20 levels, core, complete, races of. no tome of battle.

[Demons_eye]

Edit: Miss read Op, Sorry.

To be more helpful it would be very feat starved. To do good damage with both styles would take lots of feats. Maybe Ranger with Archery combat style and picking up power attack and more charging feats with leveling?

[Wings of Peace]

Yuanti Serpent Bows can be used both as a bow and a two handed melee weapon.

[heymejack]

To do good damage with both styles would take lots of feats.

yeah, i mean i know i won't be able to be either the BEST POSSIBLE charger or the BEST POSSIBLE archer. but i'd settle for decent, with both.

i figure as a first level human fighter i can go ahead and knock out point blank, rapid and precise shot. have those to start with, and stick to archery, since i'll have low con and thus low hit points at first. i figure i can trade the con, since i'll be doing my best to stay out of the melee fight. From there, assuming zero more levels of fighter, i've got six feats to work with. seems like something can be done with that. plus, there are ways to squeeze in more feats anyway, right?

maybe though, do i dump dex and go with zen archery? i was kind of planning on using the paladin variant where i drop spells and take bonus feats instead,

[Eldariel]

2 levels of Ranger gets you Rapid Shot which is really all you need for decent archery. Get Knowledge Devotion & Education for a good omni-applicable damage buff, pick up the normal Charger-feats, get the Barbarian-dip for Whirling Frenzy with Extra Rage and Pounce (Whirling Frenzy is awesome for charger and fine for archer), maybe Travel Devotion through Cleric-dip and you should be quite done.

I'd suggest you a Warblade Archer since it's perfect for what you want without much work, but stupid book limitations prevent the easy answer so yeah, you'll have to go through a bit more trouble.

[2xMachina]

Warblade and archer does not work. Unless you homebrew.

Their maneuvers does not work with ranged attacks.

[Ladorak]

Their best maneuvers aren't strikes

[Chess435]

This is why the swordbow was invented by the elves.

[heymejack]

i know absolutely nothing about education and knowledge devotion. what do they do, what book are they in?

[Curmudgeon]

i know absolutely nothing about education and knowledge devotion. what do they do, what book are they in?

They're feats. For such things, the WotC Online Feat Index is your friend.

Short version: Education makes all Knowledges class skills for all your classes. Knowledge Devotion gives bonuses to attack and damage vs. particular creature types based on your associated Knowledge checks.

[Greenish]

Warblade and archer does not work. Unless you homebrew.

Their maneuvers does not work with ranged attacks.

I've two mongooses here that beg to disagree.

[Eldariel]

Warblade and archer does not work. Unless you homebrew.

Their maneuvers does not work with ranged attacks.

...you are telling me that? Trust me, I know what works and what doesn't when it comes to archery. Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Targeteer 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10 is just about the best volley archer you can build, especially higher on, while also having an excellent martial prowess and ally assist, while also having the ability to shoot 22 arrows a turn and take multiple turns in quick succession with Eternal Knowledge (+ Knowledge Devotion) and Eternal Training fueling archery damage along with the normal Ranged Weapon Mastery qualification and company.

[Chess435]

...you are telling me that? Trust me, I know what works and what doesn't when it comes to archery. Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Targeteer 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10 is just about the best volley archer you can build, especially higher on, while also having an excellent martial prowess and ally assist, while also having the ability to shoot 22 arrows a turn and take multiple turns in quick succession with Eternal Knowledge (+ Knowledge Devotion) and Eternal Training fueling archery damage along with the normal Ranged Weapon Mastery qualification and company.

That seems a little broken....

[2xMachina]

...you are telling me that? Trust me, I know what works and what doesn't when it comes to archery. Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Targeteer 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10 is just about the best volley archer you can build, especially higher on, while also having an excellent martial prowess and ally assist, while also having the ability to shoot 22 arrows a turn and take multiple turns in quick succession with Eternal Knowledge (+ Knowledge Devotion) and Eternal Training fueling archery damage along with the normal Ranged Weapon Mastery qualification and company.

OK, so I'm not good at ToB.

[ericgrau]

It's hard to focus on both so I'd do melee focus with archery as a backup, or vis versa in rare circumstances. Maybe I'd blow a couple feats into very good options like rapid shot. Then I'd take advantage of all the tactical archery options that don't require feats or class abilities. Sniping (see hide rules), cover, kneeling and so on (see combat modifier rules). Etc. Terrain is your friend. If the campaign has no terrain, I'd scrap the build. If there's a lot of terrain, you might even want to go ranger.

[Mongoose87]

Uhhh, guys?

20 levels, core, complete, races of. no tome of battle.

Ooops?

[Eldariel]

Uhhh, guys?

20 levels, core, complete, races of. no tome of battle.

Ooops?

2 levels of Ranger gets you Rapid Shot which is really all you need for decent archery. Get Knowledge Devotion & Education for a good omni-applicable damage buff, pick up the normal Charger-feats, get the Barbarian-dip for Whirling Frenzy with Extra Rage and Pounce (Whirling Frenzy is awesome for charger and fine for archer), maybe Travel Devotion through Cleric-dip and you should be quite done.

I'd suggest you a Warblade Archer since it's perfect for what you want without much work, but stupid book limitations prevent the easy answer so yeah, you'll have to go through a bit more trouble.

Got that covered; 2xMachina just wanted to know how ToB work with Archery, hence the discussion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Elvencraft bows from Races of the Wild are also considered clubs (shortbows) and quarterstaves (longbows) for only 300 gp more than a standard bow of the same kind. You would have to pay 300 gp more for each masterwork component (bow, both of the quarterstaff ends) but each can be enchanted separately as well. For example, put +1 Defending on each quarterstaff end and cast Greater Magic Weapon on each one, and your archer gets a nice AC bonus, though only affordable in the higher levels. You can stick properties like Eager, Warning, Parrying, and Illithidwrought on those so you won't have to pay more to put the damage properties you want on the bow portion.

Any access to PH2 or Spell Compendium? Cleric and Archivist Archers are amazing, and Fighter Archer is good if you can use PH2 feats.

I'm not sure about an archer charging into melee, I'd say make him melee capable for when he has to be but try to keep your distance and do what you do best. There are a lot of abilities which allow you to still use your bow to make ranged attacks while in melee, specifically because a character focused on doing one thing is typically much stronger than one who tries to be good at too many things.

My advice would be to play a Cleric and go into Stormlord from Complete Divine. Use DMM: Persistent with Divine Power and other buffs, get Gloves of Endless Javelins from MIC, and try to include the Wrath domain with the PH2 spontaneous domain casting ACF. Get Power Throw in Complete Adventurer and make Dex a dump stat, throw javelins when you need to or charge in spear-first when they get close enough.

[Quirp]

I once tried to make such a build myself for the Iron Chef contest and (luckily) have kept my notes:

Ranger 3(CharLv 1,3,5)/Fighter 2(CharLv 2,4)/Beastmaster 2(CharLv 6,7)/Animal(Wolf) Lord 10(CharLv 8,10,12,14+)/Forest Revee 3(CharLv 9,11,13)

Feats: L1: Track, Skill Focus(Handle Animal),Mounted Combat; L2: Point Blank Shot; L3: Rapid Shot, Animal Devotion; L4: Precise Shot; L5: Endurance; L6: Mounted Archery; L7: Alertness; L9: Power Attack; L12: Imroved Precise Shot; L15: Improved Bull Rush; L16: Improved Trip; L18: Shock Trooper

using a composite shortbow and a scimitar or falchion
it´s not a perfect build, but I think he is OK as a riding archer and charger
using flaws the shock trooper line can be taken earlier

[heymejack]

i'm definitely planning on being mounted, the mobility improves this guy by quite a bit. full attack archery with a double move, plus ride by attack on the charges, and you have a fast moving piece thats always doing damage, even when he's looping around for another charge.

seems like a good idea to focus on the charge, since it's the one that does more damage with less feats. archery can be good, of course, but it seems like the charging greatness is easier to get to.

he's gonna be like this evilhunter guy, not sure what yet (i like the idea of demon hunter, but we'll see what the big bad is gonna be in the campaign. if it's orcs, it's orcs)

levels of paladin (probably of freedom) and ranger just seem to make sense, smite + favored enemy, maybe even take the paladin variant that gets favored enemies, so it'll stack. take the devoted tracker feat for the smite stack and the mount+animal companion combo.

power attack, ride by attack, spirited charge... cavalier levels? just 2, probably, although the fluff really doesn't match up, so i might stay away from that.

paladin mount + 2 levels of wild plains outrider gives me a +20 to speed, as long as i get enough paladin or equivalent levels.

ideas?

[Zieu]

A Jack of All Trades is a Master of None...

[Yukitsu]

Feats/class features are the biggest boon to your charges. Virtually no equipment that helps with this. You'll just need a +1 valorous lance and horseshoes of the zephyr or something like that for charger gear. For classes, 2 dip ranger, fighter and psy blade for feats, take paladin to 6 and take cavalier the rest of the way. If you find you don't need or want anymore feats, drop psyblade.

Money should almost all go into archery. Something like 80% of your ranged damage is gonna come from a splitting, collission +5 force bow, and some boots of speed. You only need the rapid shot feat from a 2 dip in ranger.

[TooManyBadgers]

A Jack of All Trades is a Master of None...

I know, right?

They should have stuck with the 3.0 wording, where that feat actually did something.

[derfenrirwolv]

Please remember that with a mounted build you NEED to have a mount that will survive combat. Most of the given builds are unworkable because you'll be walking as soon as the party is hit with a fireball. that pretty much means you need to stick with paladin, ranger, or even druid or something that stacks with those three to give your ride HP, or talk the dm into letting you take leadership.

[heymejack]

dont i need precise shot, too?

[Maeglin_Dubh]

This may be a stupid question, but do charging bonuses apply to ranged attacks?

Like, could you make a charger who ran towards the enemy, Shooting on the Run, then quickdrew a sword on contact and went to hacking?

[dextercorvia]

This may be a stupid question, but do charging bonuses apply to ranged attacks?

Like, could you make a charger who ran towards the enemy, Shooting on the Run, then quickdrew a sword on contact and went to hacking?

I don't believe so. Charge requires a Full round Action, and SotR lets you take move actions before and after an Attack action which is a Standard Action. You might be able to do this with Swiftblade.

[Yukitsu]

dont i need precise shot, too?

Not really. I usually just suck up the -4, or more likely, if they're in combat, you'd want to start thinking about charging instead of shooting.