Best things from the Worst Places

[Vantharion]

Now a lot of the time in my time lurking these forums (Which hasn't been tremendously long) I see people mentioning how 'Oh, Miniature's Handbook was terrible' or 'Savage Species is awful and full of worthless ineffective fluff'.
I want to make a thread dedicated to Ansehelm, a demigod in one of the games I DM who believed that good things could come from bad things.

I ask you this playgrounders: What good things have come from all those terrible books? What are the redeeming qualities? What should we look for if we ever come across one of those books.

Examples: [I can update this section]
Factorum from Dungeonscape
Immediate/Swift Actions from Miniature's Handbook
Shivering Touch Spell from Frostburn.

TL;DR:
Replies should probably cover:
Which book you think is bad.
Why you think it is bad.
What redeeming qualities it has.

[PId6]

Book: Weapons of Legacy
Reason It's Terrible: Clunky mechanics, weapons that make you weaker as you level up.
Awesomesauce: Legacy Champion, for all the shenanigans it can pull off (love that Legacy Hellfire Glaivelock).

[gallagher]

Book: Weapons of Legacy
Reason It's Terrible: Clunky mechanics, weapons that make you weaker as you level up.
Awesomesauce: Legacy Champion, for all the shenanigans it can pull off (love that Legacy Hellfire Glaivelock).

Book of Exalted Cheese, due to the Vows, which are terrible and not worth your time.

they do have vassal of Bahamut is soooo flavorful... i really like playing one, and i am toying around with having levels of it in my devoted tracker build

[Zeta Kai]

Book: Tome of Magic
Reason It's Terrible: Shadow Magic is underwhelming for the investment one make in it. Truenaming took our collective hopes & raped them before our tear-filled eyes.
Awesomesauce: Binders are pretty cool, & the Truenaming concept was so cool that multiple homebrew fixes exist to un-rape the mechanics.

[Greenish]

Book: Complete Psionics
Reason it's terrible: I have only glanced it, but it gets a lot of bad rap on the forum.
Awesomesauce: Argent. Linked Power. Being a supplement focused on psionics.

[Ignition]

Book: Epic Level Handbook
Reason It's Terrible: Epic magic creation is made from the notes of a gibbering insane man who read the Necronomicon while hooked up to an I.V. full of sherbert. Also, everything else.
Awesomesauce: The Atropol - stillborn god-child uber-lich. It's stuff like this that make me think the Epic Level Handbook was in reality a parody disguised as a sourcebook.

[Otogi]

Book: Gamma World d20
Reason It's Terrible: Poor mechanics, frequently seems forget it's own rules, very sparse, numerous errors, a small list of unexciting mutations, you need another book (maybe two) to even play, d20 Apocalypse is WAY better for shorter length and art, Omega World even more so and finally it drives away from the very notion of having a wacky-whazoo game (a staple of a lot of Gamma World adventures).
Awesomesauce: The idea of having towns act like players is pretty cool, and combined with the mass combat and minion rules in M&M supplements make for very badass and epic scenarios. Also the nanotech is pretty new to the PA scene and it's one of the only systems to work alright (even though the specialist class sucks for it).

[FMArthur]

Book: Cityscape
Reason It's Terrible: Appears to only give only a handful of feats and a tiny trickle of spells to players, with the majority of the book dedicated to showing DMs how to make much more work for themselves than necessary.
Awesomesauce: Invisible Spell is a +0 metamagic that makes the whole spell invisible - opening up tons of clever improvised solutions to casters. But that's nothing compared to its Web Enhancements, which are superior to the whole book by a large amount and offer lots of cool options for players that aren't exclusive to urban environments.

Sure, Web Enhancements aren't a reason to buy the book, but they certainly make its mere existance a wonderful thing. Some third edition books just should never have been made at all...

[grarrrg]

Book: Book of Erotic Fantasy
Reason It's Terrible: If I have to tell you, then you're better off not knowing.
Awesomesauce: It's probably THE BEST-WORST BOOK EVAR!!1!!11!. And so it is an auto-include whenever anybody makes lists and such.

[SurlySeraph]

Book: Book of Exalted Deeds
Reason It's Terrible: Stupid, stupid, stupid. The book that was supposed to be about how to understand true good declared that all poison is evil, but then gave us "ravages," which are exactly like poison except good, and declared that that one Always Lawful Good creature that's poisonous is now ravageous. Much of the mechanics were also in that vein, taking things from the Book of Vile Darkness and then awkwardly flipping them into holy versions. It had awful morality (PELOR REFUSED TO HELP KILL A VAMPIRE THAT MURDERED A PALADIN'S FAMILY. BECAUSE THE PALADIN WAS TOO ANGRY. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO REFLECT WELL ON PELOR), mostly disappointing PrCs, meh feats, questionable characters (WHY DOES THE ARCHANGEL WHO HAS AN ORDER OF ASSASSINS HAVE NO STEALTH?), even more questionable fluff (WHY ARE THERE MAUSOLEUMS IN HEAVEN?), and plenty of brokenness. Oh, and everything on Chaotic Good seemed thrown in as an afterthought.
Awesomesauce: The Champion of Gwynharwyf makes up for the book's heavy focus on stick-up-the-rear law, Sanctified spells are fun, flavorful, and often actually worth using, and some of the monsters are actually pretty awesome. Having the Upper Planes mapped out beyond "Mountains, trees, shininess" is quite useful. And Ancestral Relic is like legacy weapons, except it works.

[The Glyphstone]

Book: Book of Erotic Fantasy
Reason It's Terrible: If I have to tell you, then you're better off not knowing.
Awesomesauce: It's probably THE BEST-WORST BOOK EVAR!!1!!11!. And so it is an auto-include whenever anybody makes lists and such.

I'll correct that for you.
Book: Book of Erotic Fantasy
Reason It's Terrible: If I have to tell you, then you're better off not knowing.
Awesomesauce: "Love Life of an Ooze: One Ooze. Idiot Hits Ooze. Two Oozes." Best quote from any book I've ever seen.

My submission...
Book: Complete Champion
Reason It's Terrible: Complete lack of balance, poor proofreading.
Awesomesauce: Pounce for melee, Knowledge Devotion, and a few other gems give non-ToB melee a solid leg up. It just came too little, too late.

[hamishspence]

Book: Book of Exalted Deeds
Reason It's Terrible: Stupid, stupid, stupid. The book that was supposed to be about how to understand true good declared that all poison is evil, but then gave us "ravages," which are exactly like poison except good, and declared that that one Always Lawful Good creature that's poisonous is now ravageous.

Technically- it didn't- but it did say you can collect couatl venom and "purify it" to create the ravage "Purified Couatl Venom".

I agree that the whole "poison is evil because it causes extreme, excessive suffering" is pretty stupid though- and drop it, citing The Sage's discussion of Ninjas, which says there is nothing inherently evil about poison use.

Ravages only really make sense in the context of "friendly fire" situations- when taking down a monster which has Dominate Person or similar, you want weapons which won't do as much harm when turned against you.

BoED's morality sections can be very hit-and-miss- but I do like the emphasis on mercy and redemption.

Other books:

Book: MM2
Reason It's Terrible: Horrible art in places, horribly unbalanced monsters (Adamantine Horror especially)
Awesomesauce: Some of the art is exceptionally good, as are some monsters

[Vantharion]

I love the ideas behind legacy items, I just think the book horribly executed a potentially good idea.
In my games the world tends not to be full of magic-marts and players won't really have the option to just pick the items they own unless they go through effort. Usually what acts as a substitute is a player finding an item with a history.
I may be incorporating some legacy item style rules, but I'll try a bit more to balance and fix them. [The -1/2/3 to skill checks is crippling compared to giving up a level 1 spell slot as a sorcerer]

Book: Weapons of Legacy
Reason It's Terrible: For its murder of the loregasm potential.
Awesomesauce: Showing how you shouldn't make your weapons of legacy. The weapons of legacy aren't too bad, and if your DM lets you magic mart, some of the items in the book are somewhat worth it.

Sarcasm:
Book: Spell Compendium
Reason It's Terrible: Its 50-60$ for a hardcopy
Awesomesauce: Oh wait, this is actually an amazing book... its just terribly expensive.

To the BOEF folk, you obviously have not read Nymphology... it has some hilarious spells ranging from illusionary harems to genital targetting ray attacks...

Submission:
Book: Savage Species
Reason It's Terrible: Ritual Cheese that can break the game (Wish and the Word), excessive and downright useless prestige classes, lots and lots of poorly done fluff...
Awesomesauce: Survivor Prestige Class for being unique, flavorful and interesting. Has a few good spells in it and then some not terrible feats that let you up energy resistance of a type, or improve your character if they are abnormal. [Not optimization quality good spells or feats, but they could be done ALOT worse]. The templates aren't terrible and the book was just trying to straighten some rules for the more eccentric folk as opposed to making radical claims like BoED

[Greenish]

Book: Complete Champion
Reason It's Terrible: Complete lack of balance, poor proofreading.
Awesomesauce: Pounce for melee, Knowledge Devotion, and a few other gems give non-ToB melee a solid leg up. It just came too little, too late.

And let us not forget Battle Blessing.

[Mongoose87]

And let us not forget Battle Blessing.

And Ordained Champion, one of the few PrCs good enough to lose CL over.

[Noneoyabizzness]

Which book you think is bad: dragon Magazine compendium vol 1?
Why you think it is bad:most of it, including the races, most of the classes, and feats. the fact that there wasnt a possibility of redeeming it with a volume 2
What redeeming qualities it has:battle dancer and jester, critical hit and fumble charts

[hotel_papa]

Drow of the Underdark

Only redeeming factor was fantastic (and sometimes downright sexy) art and the Constant and Dutiful Guardian feats, two of my favorites.

It's a personal thing. I found the whole Salvatore mythos of the Drow society to be ridiculous bordering on parody. Loves me my Eberron Drow. Scorpion themed jungle tribes for the win. A society based on chaos and evil isn't a society at all, and saying it works because it's ancient and matriarchal feels like a giant, spider-shaped, sun-fearing lampshade.

[RebelRogue]

A society based on chaos and evil isn't a society at all, and saying it works because it's ancient and matriarchal feels like a giant, spider-shaped, sun-fearing lampshade.

To me personally, the fridge logic is, that it only works as a society because Lolth actively wills it to be. But I'm getting off-topic...

[dsmiles]

Book: BoVD
Reason it's Terrible: Because it promotes the "Evil is Cool" mindset.
Awesomesauce: Two words: Angelwing Razor.

[Ernir]

Book: Stronghold Builder's Guide.
Reason It's Terrible: Using the book "as intended" (meaning, not taking your stronghold with you into the dungeon) invariably makes your character a weaker combatant. Generally poorly balanced.
Awesomesauce: Using it turns your characters from a bunch of Murderous Rampaging Hobos into respectable landowners. And as oddly as the thing is designed, it gives you a lot of freedom in how to build a castle. Contains a whole bunch of ideas, comments, and suggestions on castle building I'd never have thought of otherwise.

Drow of the Underdark

Only redeeming factor was fantastic (and sometimes downright sexy) art and the Constant and Dutiful Guardian feats, two of my favorites.

It's a personal thing. I found the whole Salvatore mythos of the Drow society to be ridiculous bordering on parody. Loves me my Eberron Drow. Scorpion themed jungle tribes for the win. A society based on chaos and evil isn't a society at all, and saying it works because it's ancient and matriarchal feels like a giant, spider-shaped, sun-fearing lampshade.

DotU also has the Fearsome armor enhancement (awesome), the Imperious Command feat (awesome), the Bracers of Murder wondrous item (cool and satisfying to use) and a few possibly useful ACFs for base classes.

[Morithias]

Book: Boef
Terrible: It's a book about sex in dnd, not exactly a mature topic.
Reason it's good: It actually treats it as mature, and with somewhat of a respectful tone?
Reason it's awesome: I now have a chart to roll against when my silly players decide to get laid in the tavern with random girls.

[Vantharion]

Book: Boef
Terrible: It's a book about sex in dnd, not exactly a mature topic.
Reason it's good: It actually treats it as mature, and with somewhat of a respectful tone?
Reason it's awesome: I now have a chart to roll against when my silly players decide to get laid in the tavern with random girls.

That is why I have the PDF...

dsmiles, you're statement is proof towards the 'Evil is Cool' statement that book totes.

I really liked stronghold builders guide. It isn't a rulebook, its a guide and I think it did that really well.
A good amount of the 'meh' books fall into the 'Well its not TERRIBLE, more of just rules for in case players/your into this'. I'll take Savage Species or Weapons of Legacy or Draconomicon every time over blatant Cheese.

[The Glyphstone]

Book: Serpent Kingdoms
Why it's Horrible: One Word: Sarrukh.
Awesomesauce: Yuan-ti are really neat, and the book did a lot to expand on them.

[Vangor]

Silver Marches

By and large, I found the book useless and rather boring. For a realm book, especially focusing on the most written about locale in forgotten realms, the history and description was simply uninteresting despite being the bulk of the material. As well, the PrCs, monsters, etc., are largely a disappointment, giving me perhaps the least amount of material I would ever employ.

Telkoun's Tower. Just enjoy this little random location for whatever reason, and from the tower I have created four or five small wizard tower sessions to my campaigns which are usually huge highlights.

[Morithias]

That is why I have the PDF...

dsmiles, you're statement is proof towards the 'Evil is Cool' statement that book totes.

I really liked stronghold builders guide. It isn't a rulebook, its a guide and I think it did that really well.
A good amount of the 'meh' books fall into the 'Well its not TERRIBLE, more of just rules for in case players/your into this'. I'll take Savage Species or Weapons of Legacy or Draconomicon every time over blatant Cheese.

Let's just say the stronghold builders guide quickly becomes mainstay among my players when I actually start charging them for using the inns and such, and roll the random encounters whenever they sleep outside. Sometimes having a place that is just your own is just...well...useful. That's why you don't see people doing things in the real world like renting a hotel room 365 days of the year.

[dsmiles]

dsmiles, you're statement is proof towards the 'Evil is Cool' statement that book totes.

Not quite sure I'm smellin' what you're steppin' in there.

EDIT:
@Morithias: When you start charging them for the inns they're sleeping in? Don't inns always cost money to sleep in? (Unless, of course, you're Superman, then they pay you to stay there.)

[Greenish]

That's why you don't see people doing things in the real world like renting a hotel room 365 days of the year.

Except when they're filthy rich, like higher level D&D characters.

DMG had optional upkeep rules there somewhere, and it prized good food, stylish clothing and comfortable lodgings at 100 gp a month.

[Morithias]

Not quite sure I'm smellin' what you're steppin' in there.

EDIT:
@Morithias: When you start charging them for the inns they're sleeping in? Don't inns always cost money to sleep in? (Unless, of course, you're Superman, then they pay you to stay there.)

Well often it's a very small amount, so the PHB amounts are really only bad at low levels, but I tend to scale it a bit. A run down shack in a thorp where the most common coin is copper isn't going to cost the same as the biggest and most expensive inn in the capital city with a money limit in the millions.

Go look up what a hotel in a small city costs, during a low demand time. Then go look up a hotel in the middle of Orlando during tourist season. That will basically sum it up.

Plus it's often such a small amount....we tend to ignore it. I really only use it when they start doing the "wizard it out of his 1/day metamagic combo let us sleep"

[Caphi]

I'll correct that for you.
Book: Book of Erotic Fantasy
Reason It's Terrible: If I have to tell you, then you're better off not knowing.
Awesomesauce: "Love Life of an Ooze: One Ooze. Idiot Hits Ooze. Two Oozes." Best quote from any book I've ever seen.

Miss is also a neat little spell with some fun play potential. Why it didn't exist until the ol' Book of Teenagers is anyone's guess.

[Morithias]

Miss is also a neat little spell with some fun play potential. Why it didn't exist until the ol' Book of Teenagers is anyone's guess.

The giantblood template, metamagic shaper. Seriously we use the templates and classes that aren't sex based in the book more than we use the sex stuff. It's like buying the horror book and ignoring all the horror stuff just because you wanted a divine wizard XD